1985 CFI Engine Build

[emerygt350]

i found mine ran appreciably cooler/better with a functioning egr.

[Branden1995]

OK, is there a way I can keep the EGR given that there are no provisions on the new manifold?

[emerygt350]

You need the adapter plate. Is it a edelbrock 3721 manifold?

[Branden1995]

7521 Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap for Ford 302

[Branden1995]

The manifold also raises the cfi unit quite a bit over stock. Will I have issues with the throttle valve rod? I can fabricate something if need be, but I'm afraid of blowing the transmission.

[Branden1995]

So I found this adapter plate on Edelbrock's website.

https://www.edelbrock.com/ford-2v-egr-plate-8057.html

I can mount that between the cfi unit and the 2bbl to 4 bbl adaptor. With all this added height, I sure am glad I already planned on modifying my hood, otherwise I'd be in for a real surprise

[emerygt350]

If it is move more than 1/2 an inch I would start to get worried about that TV linkage. The EGR adapter plate I got for mine is also the 4 to 2 barrel converter.

[JACook]

The Edelbrock EGR plate will only work with the 3721 Performer 302 intake. None of the other
Edelbrock intakes have a provision to connect the plate to the exhaust crossover (that also does
not exist in the Air Gap manifolds). Holley used to sell a couple versions of divided single-plane
Street Dominator intakes with EGR provision, but the runners were on the small side. I also have
a non-EGR dual-plane Street Dominator that I modified to work under a factory EGR plate, but
again it's a small-runner piece.

My '85 4V GT currently uses the Eddy 3721 under a stock EGR plate. (My '85 CFI vert is bone stock.)

The TV rod has a coarse adjustment for length at the lower end, but I cannot say how much height
it will be able to compensate for.

I'm curious why one wouldn't just use the later SEFI induction on this engine, maybe with a pair
of Exploder heads?

[Branden1995]

I can't really be reasoned with as I already have a particular plan in mind that I want to see through to the end. I said at the beginning of the forum, everyone who wants more power from their CFI Mustang converts to carburetor. Those who don't want to live in the past go SEFI. I'm stubborn and want to make everything as difficult as possible for myself. I like the stock dual snorkel air cleaner look, so I really want to keep it. I mostly would like to optimize the old systems rather than convert to something else. For example, when I'm ready to autocross it, it will still have a live rear axle, not an independent rear suspension. It will still have a pushrod overhead valve engine, not dohc, and it will still have TBI, not SEFI. The difference is all of these things will be better than factory... Hopefully...

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[xctasy]

When you go 5 speed, the Holley Stinger system will support it.

Id look at Megajolting the ignition, then use the rest of Stingers EFI system. I really think your on the right track with your goals.

Ford found it had broken away from Mercedes Benz style EFI, a CFi looking, but fully Bosch D jetronic system that looked carburated.



See the single air 4bbl like cleaner


Fords EFi went to a more Porsche 928 style Port Fi system.



Eventually, Porsche moved more towards Fords later GT40 Cobra system




Ford revolutionised Bosch LEll style EFi into the same way Bob Lutz did it at BMW during the prototype 7 series V12 and V8s which were promply sh!+ canned in or around 1977, IIRC.





Whereas the 928 Porsche and 3.5 liter 635i BMW port runner system was copied by Ford, Dearborn did away with the VAM Meter for its port EFi 5.0.

Ford started "acing it" with the European 1980 Capri Injection, the 1978 Euro Granada 2.8 i, the 1983 US Escort EXP Turbo, the 1983 Mustang GT Turbo, the 1984 SVO, but the 1986 5.0 was the quantum leap.

The look of the 86 Ford EFi isn't for everyone, but 85 to 90 percent of its wet gear and wiring and control is 1985 CFi. Jeff is right on the moeny with how close everything on the CFi is to the Port EFi.

Starting for 1986, Ford ditched the air cleaner, relocated the battery, and single air cleanered the 1986 to 2001 5.0 ohv engines because they decided to copy the 1980 US Rover 3500 system,






but Fords internal routing was vastly better than that noisy, restrictive VAM operated system.


You don't have to go port EFi. Modern halfway house four point EFi systems should take advantage of Fords TFi or EDIS 8 style ignition control. You need to research how Snipers Throttle body EFi will work without having to step backwards to an unreliable MSD style ignition.

[Branden1995]

Well everybody, I'm stumped. Hopefully some of you more experienced than myself can point me in the right direction. I'm trying to see how much I can get away with under the stock fuel injection before I buy the Sniper. So far I've parked a perfectly running car and swapped the manifold for an Air-Gap RPM. Stuck a two to four barrel adaptor plate between that and the CFI, and decided to fire it up to make sure I still have a running vehicle. Took about 5 tries cranking the engine, each time turning the key between 5 and 20 seconds. Finally it started. I let it run a couple minutes to get up to temperature. The idle was kind of high, but I hadn't yet sorted out the shift and throttle linkage, and I could see the throttle was open more than it ought to be for idling. I turned the car off and called it quits for the day. I haven't been able to start the car since. I took lots of pictures to make sure the distributor and rotor were positioned as close as possible to where they were before removal. I'm sure it's not exact, but I have a timing light. It should be close enough to run. I've verified that I have spark and fuel. Is this manifold really upsetting the cfi this severely?

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[Branden1995]

I've adjusted the distributor advance and retard, but nothing I do with the distributor gets me any closer to starting.

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[emerygt350]

hmmm.... strange. It should go again if it went the first time. Does it fire but just doesn't catch or is it a complete no go? If you are not getting anything at all make sure your TFI is all hooked up right and ok. I assume you have checked for spark if it is turning over. Are the injectors sending in the fuel? Have you tried starter fluid. If it fires on starter fluid then you pretty much know it is the CFI misbehaving.

[Branden1995]

hmmm.... strange. It should go again if it went the first time. Does it fire but just doesn't catch or is it a complete no go? If you are not getting anything at all make sure your TFI is all hooked up right and ok. I assume you have checked for spark if it is turning over. Are the injectors sending in the fuel? Have you tried starter fluid. If it fires on starter fluid then you pretty much know it is the CFI misbehaving.

Fuel is 100% making its way into the manifold. It is getting spark too. I could hear it ignite once or twice, but it wouldn't catch and then there was no combustion for the rest of the day. I'm convinced I just have to adjust ignition timing. The only thing I don't understand is how it ran on day one with the new manifold but not day two.

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[xctasy]

Air speed has dropped and intake runner volume is too big to allow the ignition advance tip-in to work.

Four things on the auto M code CFi need to be present.

Haystack noted that

1.a port EFi 5 speed TFi ignition is calibrated to run right down to below 400 rpm; in fact, you can push start it and it catches at 250 rpm. In the M code HO, and the SO CFi, the auto TFi goes off line if the idle isnt able to sit at 550 rpm.

2.The ECU MAP sensor pressure and

3. choke pulldown figures 20 Hg H20 required now arent working together because of the intake volume and air speed changes (Item 4, speed density primary requirements).

Jeff Cook suggested that the hunting idle is typical with even stock CFi's, but that the choke pulldown pressure and idle vacuum change with the intake type. Petersen's CFi article on the LX and MTX Police LTD's noted the limits on intake, cam and head CFM.

Using a choke pulldown vacuum of 15 instead of 20 might help getting it past the 550 rpm cutin stall speed.

The fuel pressure might have to be increased to compensate for a lack of fuel supply to each if the eight cylinders under low idle situations.

The CFi earths for all sensors have to be working.

[Branden1995]

I think it's safe to say the next thing I'm buying is the Holley Sniper EFI. As we suspected, it seems like the CFI unit is too fussy for what I want to do. I don't really want to try MegaSquirt either. Best to ditch the outdated tech all together.

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[xctasy]

I'll dis-reguard the outdated tech statement.

The 60 pin EEC 4 work-a-like systems reworked by DIY is head and shoulders above other systems in termz of support. Holleys systems have good support, but its early days. The results you get are based on the amount of help you get with the interfacing with the ignition system. Fuel only systems with down graded ignitions relay on block leaning and that means you have to drive them to self tune.

[Branden1995]

My statement was mostly referring to my particular CFI unit that has seen better days and could probably use a rebuild or cleanup if I seriously consider keeping it around for another 5 years. Although OBDII would be nice lol. My only gripe with MegaSquirt is the ECU alone is almost as much as the 4bbl Sniper with 100lb/hr injectors and built in ecu. The Sniper also doesn't require laptop tuning.

My heart is set on the Sniper. I was originally planning later rather than sooner, but I don't want to invest $$ into CFI just to throw it all out after 2 years and replace it with Holley's product. If the cfi needs extra help to run with this manifold, I can't imagine it'll be much easier with my new heads and a possible camshaft upgrade. What are the stock injectors rated at anyway?

Basically, if I use MS, I'm committing to keeping my CFI.

For clarification, when we talk DIY MS, this is what we're referring to, correct? -- https://lmr.com/item/LRS-MSPNPFOX/mu...-kit-1986-1993 --
I ask because it says it's compatible with 86 and newer. No mention of 84-85 CFI.

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[Branden1995]

When you go 5 speed, the Holley Stinger system will support it.

Id look at Megajolting the ignition, then use the rest of Stingers EFI system. I really think your on the right track with your goals.

Ford found it had broken away from Mercedes Benz style EFI, a CFi looking, but fully Bosch D jetronic system that looked carburated.



See the single air 4bbl like cleaner


Fords EFi went to a more Porsche 928 style Port Fi system.



Eventually, Porsche moved more towards Fords later GT40 Cobra system




Ford revolutionised Bosch LEll style EFi into the same way Bob Lutz did it at BMW during the prototype 7 series V12 and V8s which were promply sh!+ canned in or around 1977, IIRC.





Whereas the 928 Porsche and 3.5 liter 635i BMW port runner system was copied by Ford, Dearborn did away with the VAM Meter for its port EFi 5.0.

Ford started "acing it" with the European 1980 Capri Injection, the 1978 Euro Granada 2.8 i, the 1983 US Escort EXP Turbo, the 1983 Mustang GT Turbo, the 1984 SVO, but the 1986 5.0 was the quantum leap.

The look of the 86 Ford EFi isn't for everyone, but 85 to 90 percent of its wet gear and wiring and control is 1985 CFi. Jeff is right on the moeny with how close everything on the CFi is to the Port EFi.

Starting for 1986, Ford ditched the air cleaner, relocated the battery, and single air cleanered the 1986 to 2001 5.0 ohv engines because they decided to copy the 1980 US Rover 3500 system,






but Fords internal routing was vastly better than that noisy, restrictive VAM operated system.


You don't have to go port EFi. Modern halfway house four point EFi systems should take advantage of Fords TFi or EDIS 8 style ignition control. You need to research how Snipers Throttle body EFi will work without having to step backwards to an unreliable MSD style ignition.

This is what I found for Megajolt. What exactly is the advantage of this? It should in theory make my distributor compatible with the Sniper EFI? And what about MSD ignitions is unreliable?
https://www.autosportlabs.com/produc...ired_ignition/

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[xctasy]

Lots to say. If you don't like how EDIS8 looks, then follow Holley's requirements to the letter, and ignore my advice.

Fuel only computers with just a little bit of ignition control are really nice systems, IMHO.

The best advocate for Snipers advanced system is Fordsix's 67Straightsix, who has run the Holley HP system with exceptional finese in an in line 3.3 six with turbo charger and GM Waste Spark. It has huge advantages in terms of processing ability.

https://www.fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?t=74307

The basic Holley Sniper Systems force you out of TFi and EDIS8. Those systems are IMHO, the most excellent progression from the old 1981-1984 CFi 5.0 DuraSpark III separate system.

I'm all for keeping Ignition and ECM separted because Ford spent a lot of time sliming down the EECIV and EECV systems to run EDIS8 inside the ECM.

Early systems had a lot of very smart self runnign prompts

Early TFi was so lovely and simple, and worked out side the EECIV ECM.

If you use EDIS8, it should free up your Sniper control.

MSD, well, its okay, but its a backwards step for ignition control compared to what Ford did with TFi.

I'm really against going backwards in ignition intensity and service. The Duraspark downgrades circumvent actually thinking about what a modern cars igntion needs to have. PIP and SPOUT can be controlled by the distributor drive, without a 32-1 counter. Ford did it. They got no kudos for the simplicity of the TFI CFi.

The early EECIII 5.0 CFi from 1981 to 1984 had a front crank CPS. The 1984.5 auto 5.0 CFi TFi ignition eliminated it.

You need to decide if you have proper support from Holley to run TFi. If you don't, then spend the extra on an EDSI8, and not the MSD. Holley forces you to use the wrong ignition systems, and I am personally against any Chev or AMC style of downgraded Duraspark style ignition system.

All Stinger EFi's are triumps of extra processor power but use very bad ingition interfacing, which Ford spend billions of dollars upgrading. EDIS8 is really good, and MegaJolt runs it on its own. Your money, your choice.

[Branden1995]

I've always appreciated the fact that everyone you talk to knows at least one thing you don't, and it should be your goal to learn that thing when you talk to them. That's what I like the most about this community on this forum. Much to learn when I listen others.

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[xctasy]

I've always appreciated the fact that everyone you talk to knows at least one thing you don't, and it should be your goal to learn that thing when you talk to them. That's what I like the most about this community on this forum. Much to learn when I listen others.

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A whole bunch of great people here have made superb contributions. I will always be a carb and turbo guy. I really love new technology though. I measure feature for feature, and instensly dislike reverse steps and despise the snake oil dished out as elixer for all ills. My twin cam, variable valve timing, port EFi Nissan Stagea RB 25 DE was a total bad combination of sub par fuel pump, ignition and the shining brilliance of its all well drive was denegrated by an inabilty to start on a 3% full tank, or in any situation when battery or ignition parts were below 100%, just like my 98 Explorer.

Id advise against willy nilly removal of any EFi part unless its better than stock. The EDiS 6 V6 Explorer ignition worked even when volts were below 12. Although the fuel pump was a bad fly tounge design with no stillage pot and as potentially fatal as the same crap my Nissan had, it was never influenced by the cam drive wear, and all my friends with Skylines and Stageas that used EDIS6 were totally happy with the upgrade.

Sometimes, car makers get it wrong, and decide not to change. Ford excells in the ignition and injection areas...very few turkey Fords. The modern EFi fuel pump after 1986, dreadfull.The after market replacements, a traversty if justice. Ive used CFi Toyotas and Falcons (1988-1991) and the ignition, CFi and fuel pumps couldn't have been better. Backwards steos should be avoided, and bad Sniper set ups with very poor intakes, throttle bodies and non CARB spec ignitions with appalling fuel pumps that don't work really tick me off. And I love Holley.

After market Holley Snipers are just a con job in my opinion. Worse than just fixing the stock Federal feedback carbs.

Well done to Holley for at least having the balls to have a go at Jeep, Ford and Mopar and GM EFi upgrades, and way to go for building websites to offer expert help. They've put there money where there mouth is, and my hat off to them. But aint no way I'd ever undo a Carb sanctioned EO approved and Bureau of Verifcations stamped car with that kind of "39 Steps to EFi your AMC/Mopar/GM/Ford".

And certainly not a CFi one. GM and Ford had that technolgy by the b@||s from 1981 onwards.

[xctasy]

Its okay to trust Holley Sniper tech.

EGR and TFi are not suported, and all the crutches Ford spent years perfecting in the luxobarge Lincolns and used in the HO CFi like the cold start emmissions warm up, and the warm cruise running wont be like a good CFi can be.

Keep the fact that the 1984-1985 CFi's had the EGR and ignition almost non ECM managed to a semi autonomous State level. It cannot operate without the computer to trim and check for faults.

A four injector Sniper system will work just fine with your mods. I'm not sure about throttle kicking for Air Conditioning.

Please be bold enough to disregard any references to EGR...if you use it, it will have to be downgraded back to the M code manual 4bbl system, and your TFi as well. The Vaccum Operated Throttle Modulation/ Throttle Solenoid Positioner or Throttle Kicker for A/C or idle control has to be done via the program set up Sniper provides.

Plenty of really good people here will vouch for what a great step foward a 4 injector TBi is to a 79 to 85 Mustang that was 2 or 4 bbl, or CFi.

Dont sit back in the dark ages if you love the look of an Air Cleanered Dual Snorkle TBi power house.

Go for it, and make the changes you need. Plenty of really great advice from Zak, 84 and also emerald.

Move on and go for it dude.

Just remember, big alternators to feed electric cooling fans and other stuff will be the out come of trying to get more power out of the engine. It'll then have fuel delivery and other idle issues. Igntion downgrades won't help with the other stresses a great 240 hp plus engine will need.

Fords Port EFi, its delt with it, and the Port EFi from CFi swap is a fraction of what you are undertaking. 335 hp and 371 hp Factory 342 and 351's existed between 1994 and 2003. That's the swap to have.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...arb-conversion

[xctasy]

......And what about MSD ignitions is unreliable?
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The problem is it May Stop Dead. This is evident by the variance between the great reports from mcfairmont good and bad reports from some others.

And when great, solid and smart guys tell you to go backwards and put in a Duraspark II, I just shake my head.

Never, ever go backwards on a factory system unless its a 1981–1983 Chrysler Imperial 318 or a 1958 DeSoto Electrojector. There are very few turkey EFi cars. Even earlt 1969- 1974 Bosch D jetronic Volvo's, Benz and Citroën's, VolksWagens (very hard to trouble shoot) and some of the most difficult Bosch Mechanical Fuel Injection 1971-1973 Aston Martins and Triumph TR6/2500PI Lucas systems were easily sorted with some proper technical info.

I have the utmost respect for Homer302, Vintageracer, McFairmont. Period.

We don't all agree. I've been bitten by the best and worst stock systems, but Ford really used the TFi because it was a step above the Duraspark III, while the DS II is very much not what I'd use. Hey, YRMV!

My favorite distributor guy does only Durasparks, but you asked for advice, and IMHO, never go back to Duraspark if its TFi. Move to the Forward not to the back. Move to the Apex, be finished with all that.

See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...stuff-worth-it

Going with vintageracer on this one. I have personally never owned any because my friends were unfortunate enough to buy them first. One was dead right out the new box. Better than dying at the cruise-in I suppose. I think it's just all cheap Chinese garbage really with what used to be a quality brand name on them.

I replaced all the coils on my '01 F150 with accel pieces. I already have two gone and replaced with advance auto pieces. So I don't have much love for any of the aftermarket stuff.

There is SO MUCH PERFORMANCE to be had with a properly setup factory distributor. Please understand that a "properly setup" stock distributor is probably NOT setup the way Ford did originally as Ford wanted emissions and gas mileage so just be aware of that fact. All the "wiz bang" add on's are not much good IF your old distributor is not working properly.

The FIRST THING you need to do is find and OLD GUY with a SUN Distributor machine that knows how to use it. Our cars are 35+ years old with a mechanical distributor. Vacuum pods fail, springs stretch, advance plates lockup, distributor bushings go bad, pickup's get weak and that's just the beginning! A new MSD distributor also may not be the answer either! A distributor needs to be setup to YOUR CAR not an out of the box generic setup. That means cam, heads, compression, timing, advance and more need to be considered. IF you want to buy a new distributor call PERFORMANCE DISTRIBUTORS in Memphis and talk to them about your car and it's needs. They know how to set up a distributor to work with your car to get the best performance.

As a system goes there is nothing wrong with your stock ignition system. That does NOT MEAN that your ignition system is functioning properly. I can guaranty you there are parts of your ignition system that need a rebuild. Start with a re-curve and proper setup on your distributor. Always have a complete and proper working ignition system BEFORE you start adding "wiz bang" aftermarket parts!

You will be AMAZED at the power increase and drive-ability increase you will enjoy in your car when you have a properly setup STOCK distributor WITHOUT all the aftermarket parts!

NEVER EVER buy the $99.00 Chinese HEI conversion distributors that are sold on Ebay and most swap meets. Your broken and stuck stock distributor with bad bushings is better than that crap out of the box when new. The Chinese junk can be made to work pretty good IF you know that old guy with a Sun Distributor machine to set it up to actually run a vehicle!

[Walking-Tall]

MSD = My Spark Disappeared

Always go backward in "technology" when it's back to WHAT WORKS reliably and every time 'til the end of time hands-down.