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  1. #1
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Default Cleveland heads on 351w

    I have an extra set of 4v close chamber Cleveland heads lying around. I also see that I can purchase an edelbrock carb intake that matches cleveland 2v or 4v heads to a Windsor block for around $325. A buddy has a set of fox 351c headers I can buy fairly cheap. I think that pretty much takes care of everything but valve reliefs. My pistons have reliefs for inline valves and "twisted wedge" offset valves. Would they be suitable for matching them to Cleveland heads?

    I'm just kicking around ideas and like doing things differently. If I need new pistons, I might gather parts up for a future build.

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Lots of options here. I think you should talk to Zac. I really like the Windsor 351 to Cleveland swap.


    IIf they pass the Dye Penetrate and Maganflux and water pressure test without loeaking, I can't see you paying any more all up than $1200 for a well prepare set of 351C heads. 2V, 4v, Open chamber, closed chamber, as long as the cam is potimised to suit, and you've got the right compression ratio, they are exceptionally strong, and all you need to do is get a stock piston recut to the 4V HO 351C profile if you are planning to run a cam with more overlap. Its overlap and 50 thou figgures that cause the piston to clearance issues. If you get PTV clearance, compression and cam intake lift and exhaust lift and lobe center right for your heads, then your all good to go.


    Exhaust wise, the 351C's, 2v or 4v, flow a little less than the best GT40P's, but on intake flow, and on ablity to make torque past 2800 rpm right on up to 5250 rpm, the fabled Cleveland heads are exceptionally good. Headers on tall deck engines are always a compromise, so Ford made the stock cams suited to the stock engine. Cars with headers had 300 to 310 degree soLid lifter cams in the 351C 4V engines, and they made 350-380 in 1971-1972 race cars, and well over 450 hp after 1979 with just 2V 351 open chamber heads. The only issue is they detonate unless you have octane corrective measures in place. Cleveland heads liberate bulk power, but do so with a lot of incipent detonatie, and that's why Henry Ford II sign off on the stopping of Aussie and and US canted valve Cleveland headed engine production in the last of the Bronco XLT's with 351m's, 400's and 302/351 C (Aussie F100/F250/Broncos), 1982. The big chamber 351m/400's are a good candiate head, despite 85 to 100 cc chambers on some of them. There are 12:5:1 NASCAR spec pistons that work real nice with open chamber heads.




    It can be done with stock Windsor parts, but its got a lot of requirments top cover off. First is the intake valve cut that has to be like this on high lift camshaft 351C's.







    You have to draw a piacture to map out the block centreline to crank distances, the rod length, and the needed minumum clearance. These engines are able to take positive piston pop out like a Chevy LS series engine, but the piston to vlave clearances are complicated by the canted valve, over 9 degrees on one plane, and it hits a stock piston with a good cam and that nasty 1.73:1 rock ratio lifts the valves ultra high.

    I think you'll have to use a non Windsor 351 rod.Later 18 cc Pistons, you might be able to use stock later year 351w's , but I doubt it.


    If you had to make it work fast, you'd have to do a Piston to vlave lift check with the cam and intake and exhaust valves. With the stock approx 1.783" tall maximum pistons and 9.500" deck and 5.936-5.956" rods, you'd get close to piston contact with 4V 351 or Boss 302 heads.


    For the swap to work, you use the shorter 1.647" compression height blue print dimension, and decide if you want to use the Cleveland 302 2V 6.03" conrods instead of your 5.936 to 5.956" center to center blueprinted 351w rods. The stock later years deck height is 9.500", so with a 3.5" stroke, all 351C head swaps require a 16 thou deck to piston clearance short fall, and technically, some 6.087" tall rods.


    If you run the stock 5.956" rods, you'll clear the piston, but you might have have a 147 thou piston to block deck shortfall on a 9.500" block, maybee 116 thou on an early 9.469" deck 1969-1971 block.

    The conrod you choose defines the clearance.

    Personally?



    I'd use a longer Aussie con rod if I could get 8 of them, and a stock 1971-to 1983 Aussie 302C 2V replacement piston, which is the stock 351C 2V piston anyway.

    Sivolite and KB make factory replacement 351c 2v pistons, which are the same. Cast alloy pistons are great up till 6200 rpm if your not using the red line, or experiencing detonation.


    Block stats for the 302 2V was a stock 9.206" 351C US Cleveland plant block, to which they added a special US made 3" stroke crank, special US made 6.03" rods, and special US made 2v Closed chamber 57 cc heads, the same cc as the US Boss 302 4V heads. After about 1972, the US parts got replaced by Aussie parts. Piston shortfall on all the Clevelands was about 16 thou blue print, with a 41 thou gasket of about 8.8 cc's compressed. The 351m and 400's were very different inside, so nothing swaps easily.


    Another option is the US SPR Cat or foeged pistons with 1.169" deck, and some 351M conrods.



    The pistons will need changing generally, as the flat top piston chamber volume of all canted valve engines was derived by cutting the intake valve. The correct pistons are any 302 2V or 351 C 2V cast or forged. You then use the better 289 aftermarket con rods to make it all peaches.

    The common 351C/351M/400 and small chamber Aussie 2V 302 closed chamber heads have 2.05" intakes, while the 4V's are eitter 2.19 or 2.25 (Boss 302 heads).


    The valve cant requires a special piston rework if you valve lift is over 490 thou.

  3. #3
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Great info, xctssy! I was hoping you would chime in!

    I'm still kicking around the idea. For what I'm using it for, sticking with the Cleveland block might make more sense... at least, for now. I have a freshly rebuilt 351w (actually 408 stroker) sitting on the stand and I need some heads for it. The original plan was to build a Cleveland motor, but I ended up trading some parts for a machined windsor block, stroker crank, rods, and pistons. So it seems it wouldn't be cost effective for me to use the Cleveland heads on this particular motor, but I do have some other project cars in the works.

  4. #4

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    The thing that’s interesting about the Cleveland heads is the intake flow numbers. It’s not uncommon to see 300 CFM while a good aftermarket aluminum head for a Windsor might flow 230. Exhaust side the Clevelands are choked and need work to open them up.

    Back in the 80’s you would see Cleveland equipped cars at the track setup to run pretty insane RPM and make huge power numbers. I saw a few that were built to shift at 10K RPM. That’s a LOT of iron flying around at those piston speeds! They didn’t stay together particularly well but made huge power in N/A form for the time. A few guys were just a little crazier than the rest with them. A guy in NE Nebraska ran one in a 68 Mustang with dual magneto ignition and two 4 barrels on top of a huge tunnel ram. It was a legitimate 8 second car in the mid 80’s that he ran into the 90’s too. The car was street legal with lights, blinkers, and even most of an interior. He had a $100 taped to the dash and would always tell the passenger if they can get if off while he’s on the gas they can have it. Lol. Only got to ride in it once but it was an awesome build. Completely unreal to a 16 year old kid buying a few used go fast parts for his Windsor, let me tell you!

  5. #5
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    My first interest in clevelands and fox bodies were as a kid, when my older cousin took me for a ride in his 4v clevo swapped pace car. His brother-in-law still has it, although I haven't laid eyes on it since I was a kid.

  6. #6

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    My dream at one time was a Cleveland swapped Fox with an EFI setup. I did a lot of research on them and it’s totally do-able but the parts costs have really gotten out of hand. There are a few four eyed foxes with Cleveland’s in them lurking. Several of them LOOK Stock. Complete over the top sleeper combo. If you can’t spot the canted valve head you will be in for a very rude introduction....

    I sometimes wish I would have built one back in the late 90’s when you could just barely were give those old parts away.....

  7. #7
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    I have a complete, low miles 351C 2V sitting that I can have for free. I keep tossing the idea around, but I keep talking myself out of it.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  8. #8

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    I respect your desire to be different sir. I know very well that can be done but today there sure are a lot of easier and cheaper ways to make identical power. But then, that would not be different from what everyone else does.
    Good luck and keep us posted if you decide to jump in!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    My dream at one time was a Cleveland swapped Fox with an EFI setup.
    Add an EFI 351w intake with these adapter plates.

    AP-33 351w block, 351c 4 brl heads, 351w intake.



    http://www.pricemotorsport.com/

    Jess
    Currently own;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    Previously owned;
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  10. #10
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianj View Post
    I have a complete, low miles 351C 2V sitting that I can have for free. I keep tossing the idea around, but I keep talking myself out of it.
    It's always the "free" projects that cause me to over spend lol! The bronco project I just got (free) will probably end up costing me $5k or more, if I fix it up properly. When it's finished, it should be worth a solid $3500!

  11. #11
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    And my 86 coupe was given to me. I'll have $3k in paint and body work, $6k+ in motor, $2k in transmission, and $2k+ in rear and suspension. Another $2k in odds & ends. I'm sure I could sell for $5k, though!

  12. #12
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    It's always the "free" projects that cause me to over spend lol! The bronco project I just got (free) will probably end up costing me $5k or more, if I fix it up properly. When it's finished, it should be worth a solid $3500!
    That bronco, fixed properly, with decent but not show quality paint on it, would get north of 15K up here.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

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