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  1. #26

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    There hasnít been a lot of deep dive into air temperature impacting air density or elevation impacting density, etc.

    Lots of fun things to discuss.

    Heck, even ideal timing is a topic that can be discussed. Timing advance gives the mixture more time to burn but give it too much it will create a violent suck effect as the flame goes out. Timing retard gives less burn time. Often leads to more raw fuel in the catalytic converters, etc

    Then there is swirl tendency of a given combustion chamber influencing timing thatís desireabke.

    Also how well is the fuel atomized when it reaches the combustion chamber. Too long of a runner on a damn cold morning and raw fuel runs down the intake runners as itís no longer atomized by the intake valve. Dumping raw fuel poorly mixed with air and air/fuel that does combust being a mixture thatís still too lean......

    Fun to think about how far off track we can get on a simple carb and intake suggestion discussion. Lol!

    If emissions are required then emissions capable parts are required. 50 state legal performer is a great option.

    Air gap and victor have a little more up high but give up a little low and mid to do it.

    Stock head I would go performer or similar dual plane

    Aftermarket Head id pay attention to intake CFM flow on the head and try to meet it while staying dual plane if I can. Sometimes dual plane with a spacer thatís not divided shows the most benefit but fitting under the hood, mileage varies.

    My 85 ...... Iím deciding which shortblock to run right now. Probably will be a 331. I have Edelbrock heads and Airgap intake and Edelbrock 600 carb. Flowtech cam is the new plan.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    The performer rpm and the air gap are same height, for a 302. They will clear the stock hood with the stock dual snorkel air cleaner with a Holley carb and no spacer
    Will I run into clearance issues with a aftermarket air cleaner? Thinking of getting the ford racing set that comes with valve covers and air cleaner.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sask84gt View Post
    Will I run into clearance issues with a aftermarket air cleaner? Thinking of getting the ford racing set that comes with valve covers and air cleaner.
    I had air cleaner clearance concerns on my Crown Vic as well. i had a Mustang dual snorkel air cleaner I had installed previously and I know it was pretty tight. I wound up getting an aftermarket air cleaner with a dropped base. I wish I could remember which one I bought. When running a drop base air cleaner you have to make sure it will clear things like choke housings, fittings installed in the manifold and the distributor. I wound up getting a 14" x 3" air cleaner and it fit fine on my 4160 Holley with electric choke. I do not recall how much the base drop was. There is a pretty good chance the base of the air cleaner with that set is level with the base of the carb. If you search on Summit they have some pretty good specs/info on the air cleaners they sell.

    If you have a ballpark number on the distance from the air cleaner mounting base on the top of the carb to the bottom of the hood you should be able to figure out what will fit under your hood.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '95 Saturn SW2
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
    I had air cleaner clearance concerns on my Crown Vic as well. i had a Mustang dual snorkel air cleaner I had installed previously and I know it was pretty tight. I wound up getting an aftermarket air cleaner with a dropped base. I wish I could remember which one I bought. When running a drop base air cleaner you have to make sure it will clear things like choke housings, fittings installed in the manifold and the distributor. I wound up getting a 14" x 3" air cleaner and it fit fine on my 4160 Holley with electric choke. I do not recall how much the base drop was. There is a pretty good chance the base of the air cleaner with that set is level with the base of the carb. If you search on Summit they have some pretty good specs/info on the air cleaners they sell.

    If you have a ballpark number on the distance from the air cleaner mounting base on the top of the carb to the bottom of the hood you should be able to figure out what will fit under your hood.
    Thanks!

  5. #30
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    Ok so I think I'm going to go with this set up. What else will I need to make this fit my 91 302. Does the Holly come with gaskets? I will be buying a felpro engine gasket kit that will include intake gaskets Also Do I need adapter plater/spacer to bolt to intake. Sorry for all the questions, still learning.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2121

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-80457s
    Last edited by Sask84gt; 08-26-2018 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #31
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    That intake probably isn't much if any taller than the stock Ford four barrel intake. That carb should bolt right on with no adapters. The carb will probably not come with a gasket nor is it likely to be included with the engine gasket kit. One other thing to look at is how the throttle cables mount to the intake. The Performer RPM intake I used on my Crown Vic had the right mounting provisions. I don't know what they look like on your Mustang.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '95 Saturn SW2
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  7. #32

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    For what itís worth Air Gap is Flowtechís favorite intake on the 8.2 deck motors. They work so well and allow lift and duration numbers to more or less swing for the fences.

    Edelbrock 1.94 heads on a 331 model out to 440HP and 450 ft lbs with a really fat low and mid range. Same cam and compression models out to 480HP, 490 ft lbs at peak with an AFR185. Same fat low and mid with just 5 short of the peaks using a fully CNCed AFR 165.

    Ill know dyno numbers once I get a 331 shortblock sourced and get my combo assembled.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    For what itís worth Air Gap is Flowtechís favorite intake on the 8.2 deck motors. They work so well and allow lift and duration numbers to more or less swing for the fences.

    Edelbrock 1.94 heads on a 331 model out to 440HP and 450 ft lbs with a really fat low and mid range. Same cam and compression models out to 480HP, 490 ft lbs at peak with an AFR185. Same fat low and mid with just 5 short of the peaks using a fully CNCed AFR 165.

    Ill know dyno numbers once I get a 331 shortblock sourced and get my combo assembled.
    So are you saying that I should consider the air gap over the performer for a stock 91 5.0l?

  9. #34

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    The carb will probably come with a gasket mine did. Consider the rpm and air gap intakes they will give you room to grow.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    The carb will probably come with a gasket mine did. Consider the rpm and air gap intakes they will give you room to grow.
    Oh ****, ya that was supposed to be a rpm performer not just the regular one. Is it really worth the upgrade to the air gap if I'm eventually going to add new heads and a cam?

  11. #36

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    I run the air gap, 650 double pumper carb and gt40x heads and a small cam. I enjoy it, it runs fantastic. More power than the little convertible needs. Everyone recommends a vacuum secondary carb for these cars. I ran an 1850 vacuum secondary, then an avenger 670. I wasnít satisfied with the performance. The 600 or 650 double pumpers are the only carbs I would run on a manual trans fox body. My carb is a quick fuel hr650. Stepped up to a blue cam and a 35 nozzle on the primaryís. Set up the idle mixtures and it runs great. The 600 Holleys ran great with a stock 88 HO cam. Once I went with the comp cam they were lean in the transition and. I could not tune it out. I would not recommend the basic Holley carb 600 if you plan on heads cam down the road. The 4776 / 4777 would be nice and the hr650 has been great for me.
    Last edited by Lowetlx; 08-27-2018 at 11:42 AM.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    I run the air gap, 650 double pumper carb and gt40x heads and a small cam. I enjoy it, it runs fantastic. More power than the little convertible needs. Everyone recommends a vacuum secondary carb for these cars. I ran an 1850 vacuum secondary, then an avenger 670. I wasnít satisfied with the performance. The 600 or 650 double pumpers are the only carbs I would run on a manual trans fox body. My carb is a quick fuel hr650. Stepped up to a blue cam and a 35 nozzle on the primaryís. Set up the idle mixtures and it runs great. The 600 Holleys ran great with a stock 88 HO cam. Once I went with the comp cam they were lean in the transition and. I could not tune it out. I would not recommend the basic Holley carb 600 if you plan on heads cam down the road. The 4776 / 4777 would be nice and the hr650 has been great for me.
    So this? I think this is the electric choke version of the ones you mentioned?

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-4777sae

    Also, will this carb cause me problems if I'm not upgrading heads or cam right away? Will it work fine with Air gap/rpm intake and the rest stock? Thanks for the help

  13. #38

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    That is the electric choke version in aluminum. Itís a good choice. You mentioned earlier the car has 3:73 gears and has a manual trans. That will not be too much carb for a 302 with roller ho cam and stock e7 heads. Add some afr heads and a nice cam down the road and it will really perform.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    That is the electric choke version in aluminum. Itís a good choice. You mentioned earlier the car has 3:73 gears and has a manual trans. That will not be too much carb for a 302 with roller ho cam and stock e7 heads. Add some afr heads and a nice cam down the road and it will really perform.
    Well for right now we will be running just the stock 7.5 rear with whatever gears it came with stock. We have a 8.8 with the 3.73 in the waiting. Figured I would let the son learn on the 7.5 rather than the 8.8 lol. Still be alright?

  15. #40

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    Yes it would still be ok.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  16. #41

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    Personally if I had plans to get heads and cam later on I'd go with the Air Gap. You will not believe how much an old pushrod V8 will wake up once it has a decent intake and exhaust on it.

    The stock intake doesn't flow nearly as well as the stock heads. Your first major bottleneck is your intake.

    A little apples and oranges here but .... I put a Typhoon EFI on my 1986GT which has the (supposedly) terrible E6 high swirl heads. The E6's flow around 155 CFM on the intake side where-as the E7's flow around 160. But keep in mind that the intakes usually flow around 110 front and rear and 130 on the other 6 ports.

    As you can well imagine, if you have shorty headers with full performance exhaust once you open up the intake the car wakes up---- big time.

    I had previously put a 65MM throttle body and did an A9L MAF conversion on my car. It has a mild cam in it that even a Speed Density EFI will tolerate so think of it as a stock on basically. E6 heads. Good 2.5" exhaust on 1 5/8" equal shorties.

    before the intake swap it was lazy by 5300 and would completely stop pulling around 5600RPM. After the intake swap it will pull well past that. It hits the rev limiter before it runs out of steam and stops pulling. (6250). I usually shift it around 6100.

    Butt dyno says the car picked up big after the intake swap. Around 50 ft lbs and all of it up top where the stock setup has already clocked out.

    It gives up maybe 10-15 lbs down low -- maybe - but by 1650 its all there and the rest is all like a freight train from there.

    Side by side with a turned up but stock 1986GT after the intake swap it puts 2 lengths on the car next to it immediately as soon as the other car shifts out of 1st into 2nd while the one with the intake is still pulling in 1st gear and pulls at least another length and 1/2 when the other car shifts 2-3 towards the top of 2nd. etc.

    That is unless I'm making a sandwich at the light and missing 3rd gear. Then its enough to recover by the top of 1st and put a few on it by the end of 2nd and have front row seats at 88 MPH when I miss 3rd towards the 1/4. OOpps.... lol.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    I run the air gap, 650 double pumper carb and gt40x heads and a small cam. I enjoy it, it runs fantastic. More power than the little convertible needs. Everyone recommends a vacuum secondary carb for these cars. I ran an 1850 vacuum secondary, then an avenger 670. I wasn’t satisfied with the performance. The 600 or 650 double pumpers are the only carbs I would run on a manual trans fox body. My carb is a quick fuel hr650. Stepped up to a blue cam and a 35 nozzle on the primary’s. Set up the idle mixtures and it runs great. The 600 Holleys ran great with a stock 88 HO cam. Once I went with the comp cam they were lean in the transition and. I could not tune it out. I would not recommend the basic Holley carb 600 if you plan on heads cam down the road. The 4776 / 4777 would be nice and the hr650 has been great for me.
    News flash... the scary sounding "Avenger" at "670" CFM, is an exact duplicate of the bore and venturi diameters of the 1850 that you ran (670 is in quotes because the extra 70cfm is blatant corporate marketing)... so, no wonder you weren't satisfied with the performance. While I don't think a 600 is enough carburetor for a healthy 302, I could build you a 600 vacuum secondary that would run absolute circles around any such double pumper or any QF or other "new and improved" nonsense.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  18. #43

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    Sask84gt... send me a PM if you'd like something very tailored prepared for your combination, and for less than the cost and the mediocre at best performance of anything you can find to buy new...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  19. #44

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    An "air gap" intake manifold introduces some hurdles... first of all, I'm going to say it right here and now... if it's a race car, sure, go nuts, get the air gap intake manifold... it takes forever to get some engine heat into the equation for properly (lean best) adjusting the idle mixture, and dialing in perfect transition and cruise fuel efficiency... if you've got some choices, and this is a street driven car, where you expect it to start and warm up drive around and not use fuel like it's going out of style, get an intake that operates with the engine's temperature... a "Performer" or a "Performer RPM" ... when my own 302 is ready, there's a Performer RPM that's going onto it
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    .......I don't think a 600 is enough carburetor for a healthy 302........
    Not to hijack the thread (well, I sorta am a little bit temporarily, sorry) what you're saying is that I didn't spec enough carb for the 331 I'm building. 600 CFM Edelbrock. Running Edelbrock heads 170 CC runner heads with 1.94" intake valves -- 230 CFM of flow, 60cc chambers. Checking in around 10:1 compression. Flowtech Cam designed for idle - 6500 "area under the curve" with the Airgap intake and headers.

    I guess at this point we'll see how it runs and throw more carb at it if needs it. Things like if there's significant vacuum in the intake at WOT or there's not enough fuel to keep advancing the dizzy and it leans out when its in the dyno cell..... etc.

    Your input on things in my build thread would be hugely appreciated.

  21. #46

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    Yes, you're right... measure what the vacuum is at WOT... and you might be surprised.

    I will check it out.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    Sask84gt... send me a PM if you'd like something very tailored prepared for your combination, and for less than the cost and the mediocre at best performance of anything you can find to buy new...
    PM sent

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