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Thread: which Primer?

  1. #1

    Default which Primer?

    Hey guys, I am repainting my car and am sanding with 220 on my DA. My question is if I'm not going to strip to bare metal , what primer do I need to use? BTW the color is Oxford White and the body is straight, I did fill about 5 door dings and covered them with etch primer.

    Thanks
    Brant

  2. #2
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    Valspar and House of Kolor make good primers. So does Spies but it is pricey. I use HoK quite often.

  3. #3
    FEP Senior Member dagenham's Avatar
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    Two things:
    1. Whatever primer you use, you should stick with that brand all the way throughto the end.
    2. Straight by what means? The eye or block sanding?
    I would lay down a coat of hi build primer and block sand the whole car. Especially where you fixed door dings. You may be very surprised how "straight" your car really is once you block sand it.

    I'm sure Trey will offer even more advice on this.

  4. #4

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    Thanks guys. By straight I mean the car hasn't been wrecked and all panels line up well with only damage are the door dings. I have gotten so many different opinions that I'm confused on priming, what grit to sand before, wet sand after/ before. Everyone I talk to tells me something different, lol. This project started as T top weather stripping replacement to now I have taken everything off the car and going to paint the whole thing, lol.

    Brant

  5. #5
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    Brand matching doesn't really matter as long as the product line is compatible. You don't want to use enamel with urethane and so forth.

  6. #6
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Ask 100 painter/body guys how to paint a car and you will get 100 different opinions.

    It sounds like you might be a bit overwhelmed, but maybe we can help out. All I can tell you is what I know and how I have done it over the years and how we do it at my shop and what we are currently doing on Erratic50's Saleen clone.

    First I will say I am NOT a fan of self etching primer. I personally NEVER use the stuff. This is at the recommendation of Jon Kosmoski (Founder/developer of House of Kolor Paint). I was lucky enough to go to a training seminar he put on years ago and he was adamant in not using Self Etching Primer. The reason is that in order for primer to be self etching it has to have some sort of acid in the mix in order to etch into the metal. That acid can come back to haunt you later in your paint process if it happens to get trapped and then due to sanding or some chemical reaction releases it. I have had it bite me in the A$$ on a several thousand dollar in material Kandy Paint job and I have never used the stuff since. I know others feel different about the stuff and I wish them the best of luck using it, but I never will and have no regrets.

    The first issue for you is to determine if you are going to strip the car to bare metal or not. You don't have to if the existing paint is in good shape. Starting with a solid foundation of the OEM finish is fine, but definitely make sure you have a solid foundation. I recommend a primer that is DTM (Direct To Metal) even if you don't take the whole car to bare metal. A DTM primer will take care of you either way, bare metal or properly prepared paint/primer.

    Another issue I would recommend is that you do all your body work/filler work over bare metal. This prevents you from having your filler pop or have adhesion issues due to going over paint or primer that isn't adhered properly or scratched up enough to hold the filler. I recommend Evercoat line of fillers, I honestly haven't used any of their products that I didn't like. As for which is best for you that depends on quantity needed and what you are filling. Body fillers such as Rage, Rage Extreme are for normal imperfection repairs. Metal Glaze is great for very minor imperfections either in your final filler coat or even over minor metal imperfections. Poly flex is great for urethane bumpers, etc. I recommend looking into the different options and see what works best for you.

    Once your body work is done and you are sure it is straight after block sanding, then you can cover it up with some primer. HOK has several good primer options that work well that include High build, Normal builds, Sealers, etc. I personally like primers that can multi-mixed so I have all three options depending on mix ratio and reduction. That saves time, $$, and gives you flexibility. I personally also like to use a sealer that is similar in color to my final color coat to help with coverage and save paint.

    Since you are going back with the OEM color you will not be able to use HOK as they will not have a direct mix for your OEM color. That will require a standard brand paint such as PPG, Dupont, BASF, RM, Sikkens, etc. I have used virtually all of them over the years and they all have their benefits and the big names have the pricing quite often to prove it. Do some shopping and see what is available in your area and go from there.

    The last decision you have is single stage or BC/CC. There are benefits to both. Generally a BC/CC will last longer as the CC is a barrier and can be a sacrificial layer to the color coat. A good single stage urethane or acrylic enamel are both good and can last a long time too, so not a bad option and generally will save you some $$ over a BC/CC.

    BC/CC is often easier to spray for a beginner since the color coat is more forgiving since it sprays a lot like Lacquer. The clear coat can be tricky for beginners due to not having the eye to really "see" what the clear is doing, but generally not too bad. A single stage has the benefit of only having to essentially spray the car completely once with a gloss color coat. This also can help when cutting and buffing as you don't have to worry about buffing thru the clear coat. Not that you can't buff thru the color coat of a single stage, but again for many beginners this can be helpful.

    I haven't even touched on body prep and what sand paper to use and how to get a truly straight body and make sure you have a good foundation for the next coat of primer and then for the sealer, color, clear coats. Rather than completely overwhelming you (If I haven't already! ) Let me know more about what you are doing, where, and how you are planning on painting the car etc. and I will try and help.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  7. #7

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    OK, wow. I was looking at Nason urethane primer to spray after I sand the car with 320 grit. Then block sand the car, IDK what grit to block sand with. This is pretty much where I am now. I have finished sanding the front and rear bumper covers and fender extensions and am now sanding the car itself with my DA sander. I will probably be finished tomorrow, depending on how hard the adhesive residue is to get off where the side body moldings were.
    So if I use urethane primer I guess I have to use a urethane paint? And do I use like a flex agent for priming the bumper covers or is that just for base or color coats?

    Thanks
    Brant

  8. #8
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorbackGT View Post
    OK, wow. I was looking at Nason urethane primer to spray after I sand the car with 320 grit. Then block sand the car, IDK what grit to block sand with. This is pretty much where I am now. I have finished sanding the front and rear bumper covers and fender extensions and am now sanding the car itself with my DA sander. I will probably be finished tomorrow, depending on how hard the adhesive residue is to get off where the side body moldings were.
    So if I use urethane primer I guess I have to use a urethane paint? And do I use like a flex agent for priming the bumper covers or is that just for base or color coats?

    Thanks
    Brant
    I am not sure how straight you want the car to be. I understand that white hides a lot of imperfections, but I still try and get the car as straight and true as possible no matter the color. That is not going to happen if using a DA to sand the car with. Nothing wrong with a DA or using one, but unless you are planning on just a quick repaint a DA will not show you where your imperfections really are. You need to use long board sanders to block the car out.

    If you are happy overall with the body work and the "straightness" of the car, then that's fine too. I still prefer to hand sand my cars before paint to make sure that I get everything sanded as well as possible. The hand sanding gives you a "feel" that you don't get with a DA that helps me know when the car is sanded enough and properly.

    I personally like to finish sand before paint with 400 grit. Others like to go finer, but I personally don't like anything finer than 400 and generally will only go as rough as 320 if I plan on spraying a heavier sealer coat. 400 seems to work well for most colors, but again everyone has their own preferences.

    Nothing wrong with a urethane primer. NASON is Dupon'ts fleet line and it's good stuff and generally cheaper than the Tier 1 products. You can spray an acrylic enamel, single stage urethane, or BC/CC over the primer and you will be fine.

    I highly recommend getting all your double sided tape residue off the car and then seal those areas with a good couple of coats of primer after sufficiently scuffing them up.

    I don't use much of the flex agent any more, back in the day it was a necessity. In regards to most of today's urethane and BC/CC they don't require flex agent, as for primer that depends on the specific primer you are using. I recommend double checking with your supplier as to what exact product you spray, but often it is not needed even on the urethane bumpers. If spraying an acrylic enamel then you will most likely want to use the flex agent, but again check your specific product to verify. I personally don't spray a lot of primers on bumper when I can help it. If you need to block out some damage to smooth the surface that is one thing, but I often try to do most of the work with Poly Flex filler and/or other urethane products and then just use a light sealer coat before color. That helps to prevent a film build up on the bumpers that can cause cracking when the bumpers are flexed or moved. I am not saying you can't spray primer on the bumpers, I just don't spray them heavy like I might a door, fender, or a hood. I might spray a high build on a couple of damaged areas that will be block sanded down thereby removing the majority of the primer and only leaving enough to fill my imperfections or issues. Hope that helps!
    Last edited by wraithracing; 05-19-2018 at 09:49 PM.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  9. #9

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    spot on! that is exactly how I did mine.

  10. #10

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    Thanks for the info Trey. So after I spray the urethane primer I should block sand and then spray a sealer primer?

    Thanks
    Brant
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    Last edited by RazorbackGT; 05-20-2018 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #11

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    Hopefully if all goes well I'll post more pics as this project progresses. As you see I'm working in my carport. So spraying will include that challenge as well.

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  12. #12
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Primer can serve multiple purposes. High build primer is used to fill in nicks, scratches, chips, etc. with the idea that you sand off the excess to level the highs and lows. Primer is also used as a foundation or bond coat between bare metal and your top coat/color coat.

    Block sanding is using flat long boards were possible to sand large panels to a nice flat/straight surface. The larger the surface, the large the sanding block/board needs to be in order to spread the load over a larger area and help to smooth/level all the surface to the same plane. Obviously some areas do not lend themselves to large flat boards and smaller ones have to be used, but when blocking out a hood, sail panels, roofs, large flat areas of the quarters and fenders it is very common to use an 18", 24", and even in some cases 32" long boards. Generally Mustang/Capri will be the 24" but occasionally I will use a 32" on the roof and hood just to be sure. Block sanding will be done in a cross hatch or opposing diagonals to allow you to see what the surface underneath really looks like. To help see the low spots you can use dust on guide coat or spray a light coat of different color lacquer/base coat or even primer. This helps to not only show the low spots, but often you can use this to tell you when you are done if the body work is straight when all the guide coat has been sanded off.

    I would again recommend getting all your major body work/filler work done. Then spray all those areas and any bare metal areas with a high build primer. Make sure you have everything sanded with no finer than 180 and generally I would say 80-120 for any filler areas. You need to make sure that your primer has a good "scratch" to stick to on the body. Otherwise you only have a chemical bond and that can be a problem down the road. Allow the high build primer to dry/outgas/shrink for several days to a week. Allowing it to sit out in the sun always helps. Then spray some guide coat and start blocking out your work. That will let you know how well you did. If you still have some low spots or issues, hopefully you can fill with a glaze coat. If you need to do more than a glaze coat, I recommend sanding well enough that you are applying filler over filler and not over the primer. Others may disagree, but I rather be safe than sorry. If you do more bodywork, then repeat all the steps above again until the body work is flat and level. Once you are happy, I will generally spray another couple of regular coats of primer to blend everything into one solid coat. Allow to dry for several days to a week. Then I will do my final dry sand with 320-400 grit. Once the car is ready for paint, then depending on what type of paint and color we are spraying then I may spray a sealer coat right before my color coat. If spraying a sealer then I sand with 320, no sealer then I sand with 400. The sealer is again a personal choice or preference. I will often use a sealer when spraying light colors such as white, yellow, beige, etc. I also like a sealer when spraying colors that may require more color coats to get full color coverage such as most reds, some yellows, even some light blues and greens. In your case a white sealer can be helpful in getting your white to really "POP" and not have any issues with the primer grey showing thru if you are light on color coat.

    Obviously spraying outside is never the best option, but we have all done it! Your best option is generally to try to spray early in the morning before it gets too hot, the sun gets too high, and when the winds are more calm. I would recommend lightly wetting all the surrounding areas to help cut down on dust, grass, etc. blowing into your paint. I would also recommend a single stage paint such as a Single Stage Urethane for spraying outside. You will want to spray a minimum of 3 good color coats as you will most likely have to do some cutting and buffing to get the best look when spraying outside. I would do the sealer and at least 3 color coats or maybe 4 if you might have a lot of dust or trash blowing around. That will allow you to cut and buff most of the trash out and still have plenty of color underneath that will hold up long term.

    Again probably more information than you wanted, but hopefully I didn't get you too far off track. We will spraying my Buddy's 86 SSP in the OEM white in the near future, so I know exactly what you are going thru. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  13. #13

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    Thanks for all the info Trey. I'm going to finish sanding then where I need it I'll use the direct to metal primer before I spray the urethane high build primer. After that I'll do my block sanding and see how she looks.

    Thanks
    Brant

  14. #14

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    Hey Trey, does Nason make this Oxford White 9L in a single stage? I can find it in basecoat and in a single stage but different code.

    Thanks
    Brant

  15. #15
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorbackGT View Post
    Hey Trey, does Nason make this Oxford White 9L in a single stage? I can find it in basecoat and in a single stage but different code.

    Thanks
    Brant
    I honestly don't know for sure. I would recommend asking your local paint supplier. I would assume they can mix it as a single stage urethane, but it may or may not be in the Nason line of paint.

    I have been dealing with similar issues with some repaints lately in white also. I was able to have them mixed in single stage but my supplier is not a Dupont Dealer, so . . . .

    Also generally with Ford, you want to make sure you match your new paint to your actual paint code and year model. A different code is generally not a paint match with Ford. It may be similar and might even have the same name, but technically is NOT the same color. Ford has used the name Oxford White on several models and lines over the years and although the color is similar it is not the same color if the codes are different. If doing a full repaint, it might not really matter, but just be aware of the fact. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member plumkrazy's Avatar
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    trey, 3 questions

    1 are you doing a BB/CC or single stage
    2 What are your thoughts on PPGs single stage and adding some clear on a white 85 Capri with a white primer/sealer
    3 What recipe /code for the gray lower and do you modify the recipe

    As for as your comments on body work that is how I was taught 15yrs ago and still use to this day. But I'm not a body guy by trade
    1 of 3 1985 Silver Grand Prix Capr's
    My first New car and still own 1986 Capri

  17. #17

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    OK, well I got my Nason Urethane high build primer. Directions says 2 to 4 coats. My question is how will I know or is there a way to test if my compressor is up to the task of completely spraying this heavy stuff 2 to 4 times. It's like a 1973 twin cylinder 5HP Craftsman. It says 7 CFM, but being that old who knows. I am just concerned because the primer directions say pay close attention to the 5 to 10 minute intervals between spraying each coat. I am using the $21.99 siphon feed spray gun from Harbor Freight. It says 1.5 CFM.

    Thanks
    Brant

  18. #18
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plumkrazy View Post
    trey, 3 questions

    1 are you doing a BB/CC or single stage
    2 What are your thoughts on PPGs single stage and adding some clear on a white 85 Capri with a white primer/sealer
    3 What recipe /code for the gray lower and do you modify the recipe

    As for as your comments on body work that is how I was taught 15yrs ago and still use to this day. But I'm not a body guy by trade
    Sorry I missed this until today!

    1) We are spraying a BC/CC on Erratic50's Saleen Clone. Best option for Silver IMHO. I will be doing the same with my 82 RS if they can mix the OEM color in a BC. Otherwise I will spray it in a single stage and top it with Clear Coat.

    2) PPG and other's all have good single stage systems. Nothing wrong with spraying a single stage and then clearing it. You just want to make sure your products are compatible and you allow the proper flash times between coats. Unlike BC/CC you will generally just go straight to clear as your next coat after normal flash time if spraying over a single stage urethane.

    3) The PPG #DDL 33717 is the best option for the 85/86 exterior charcoal grey. All the other MFG I have tried are off IMHO. I spray the color as a BC and then I flatten the clear to @ 60% gloss to give the best protection and that Satin/Matte sheen the trim had originally. I can't say that is 100% OEM perfect, but I have plenty of customers who are very happy with the results. I have never been able to sit one of my cars next to a perfect original to compare, but otherwise I believe its pretty accurate.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  19. #19
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorbackGT View Post
    OK, well I got my Nason Urethane high build primer. Directions says 2 to 4 coats. My question is how will I know or is there a way to test if my compressor is up to the task of completely spraying this heavy stuff 2 to 4 times. It's like a 1973 twin cylinder 5HP Craftsman. It says 7 CFM, but being that old who knows. I am just concerned because the primer directions say pay close attention to the 5 to 10 minute intervals between spraying each coat. I am using the $21.99 siphon feed spray gun from Harbor Freight. It says 1.5 CFM.

    Thanks
    Brant
    Honestly sounds like you are a bit challenged with your compressor. You can work around it, but definitely sounds like you are limited. First you need to make sure your spray gun is at least a 1.7 to 2.0 tip. Anything smaller than that will not spray your high build primer well. Honestly a 2.0 works really well for this application.

    As for spraying the # of coats, there's nothing wrong with your flash time being a bit longer than 5-10 minutes. Keep in mind that ALL MFG's specifications are in a spray booth and 70 degree ambient temperature with proper airflow. When spraying outside you don't have the air flow and depending on time of the day you will most likely be well above 70 degrees. So first you need to make sure your reducers/activators are correct for your spraying temperature. Otherwise that will affect your flash time intervals. You can also add @ 10% additional reducer to help with flow out depending on temperature and viscosity and your gun tip.

    As for spraying, You may need to spray panel by panel to allow your compressor to catch up/keep up. Not the best or most efficient method, but it will work for primer. Obviously NOT the way you want to spray color and clear, but it will work for this stage of the project. Hope that helps!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  20. #20

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    So I am going to primer in the morning at daybreak. Unreal that it has taken me so long to get to this point, but work has been really busy and I've not had a whole lot of time to put into the car. But anyway, if all goes as planned she'll be sitting their with 2 or 3 coats of primer this time tomorrow.

    Brant

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member JTurbo's Avatar
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    I like the paint booth, way to be resourceful with what you have

    You should think about air movement with fans, especially when spraying the paint....
    1979 Indy Pace Car Mustang 302 / 5spd
    1982 Mustang GT T-Top 302 / 4spd
    1986 SVO Mustang - 1C

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTurbo View Post
    I like the paint booth, way to be resourceful with what you have

    You should think about air movement with fans, especially when spraying the paint....
    Thank you, as you can see in the pics I have one highly insufficient small dollar store fan, but of course wore my respirator. That is 4 coats of high build urethane primer, now let her sit a few days and then sand.

    Brant
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  23. #23
    FEP Super Member JTurbo's Avatar
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    Looking good!
    1979 Indy Pace Car Mustang 302 / 5spd
    1982 Mustang GT T-Top 302 / 4spd
    1986 SVO Mustang - 1C

  24. #24
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Looking good and things are really coming along well.

    Couple of suggestions I would make for your spray area would be get the largest shop fan you can. Then seal off the currently open end with just enough room for the fan to fit in and you to be able to get in and out of. At the other end, I would add some filters. Honestly some booth filter material would be best, but even some Home Depot/Lowe's House filters can work. You want to have the fan sucking air into the booth thru the filters. This will help to give you airflow across the vehicle while spraying. This will help the fresh paint to out-gas properly, improving your flash times, the flow out, and the overall finish of the vehicle. All the air flow you can get in this situation will help to eliminate overspray and paint problems. Well worth the time and money IMHO. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  25. #25

    Default

    Thanks for the tips guys, I have to say this being my first paint project, there's a lot more involved than one would think. Anyway, baby steps, getting it done step by step, and this damn Arkansas heat wave isn't helping, humidity is unreal. Buddy of mine has a huge shop with a paint booth has offered for me to bring it to him when it's ready for paint, I haven't decided yet, he's notorious for getting a vehicle and keeping it forever. And I kinda would like to be able to say I did it myself, I have brought it this far. Anyway, I appreciate all the tips you guys provide.

    Thanks
    Brant

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