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  1. #1

    Default Mystery no start

    Alright, ready for this one?

    I've been trying to get the 86GT to stop overheating and cooking TFI modules. Plus it seems to be lacking power. I managed to get the system flushed and refilled with about eleven quarts of coolant. No leaks and on the test drive it ran well within the temp gauge.

    Back home I let it cool down but checked timing and adjusted idle speed as it seemed to be idling a little low. I didn't move it far. I did turn the distributor slightly. I then proceeded to check fuel pressure. I moved the ten pin connectors out of the way gently as I have done many times in the past to get to the test port. Once the fuel pressure tester was hooked up, no start. It did tell me I have 39 lbs from the pump before turning over.

    I let it cool down but after nearly four hours- nothing. Maybe cooked another TFI. Replaced it with a factory new spare. Nothing. Slight dull thump or click from maybe somewhere on driver's side under the hood, not sure. The starter relay is brand new but upon checking the connections I broke a fusible link clip. (See parts wanted section of board).

    What may I have broken? Something with the ten pins? Nothing appears to be broken or altered on the wiring harness in any fashion.
    Getting tired of this car. Haven't run it in a year due to oil leaks, wrong parts sent multiple times, etc. Gaskets. Nothing else changed or replaced.

    I'm lost now. Ideas most welcome.
    Cheers

  2. #2
    FEP Senior Member
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    I am assuming it turns over but does not start? Start with the basics. Do you have spark?
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  3. #3

    Default

    Not as big a mystery as you might think as mentioned above. You might own a $650,000 Lamborghini but yet it still only needs 3 things to run. Fuel, air and spark. So long as it's not a Hybrid anyway. Believe it or not, I actually had a lack of air cause a no start condition once. I was just trying to test drive the car and didn't install the air cleaner and when I shut the hood, it sucked the hood insulation into the carb and it refused to start. Took me an hour to figure it out.
    At any rate, with this car, have you verified you have all 3?
    Also, it's impossible to set the timing without a timing light. where did you set the timing? You can't just "turn the distributor" and expect good results. Are you sure which direction the distributor even turns?
    If I was anywhere near Maryland, I would offer to come up and help but I am not. Hopefully some other member is close by.
    Last edited by homer302; 04-23-2018 at 04:45 PM.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Timing has to be not more than about 2-3 degrees retarded or the may not be enough cyl pressure left to promote a start. Look at your distributor — and I mean really look at it at the base and hold down. Put it back where it was.

    It could have flooded while doing key on/off repeatedly. Pull the plugs and crank it then let it sit overnight.

    Beyond that check for codes, go from there.

  5. #5

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    It doesn't crank at all, only a dull click from somewhere on the driver's side of the bay. And the distributor is back where it was when I first started. I doubt it is flooded as there was no fuel smell. I only tried it maybe three times before waiting until it cooled down. Even with the new TFI it didn't start. With the broken wire I won't do anything until that is repaired. Rain today and tomorrow so likely Thursday before I can do more checking. I'll pull codes as well. And I adjusted timing with a timing light of course as it needed done. Not major, just an adjustment. Still need that fusible link- 20 gauge green Ford one preferred.

  6. #6

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    Made a mistake. The fuse link is green and 14 gauge, not 20.

  7. #7

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    If the fusible link doesn't fix it, then I would try jumping the starter solenoid and seeing if it will crank. It's not likely than anything in the TFI is causing a no crank situation. More likely no power to the starter from either the solenoid or from the ignition switch. Or simply a dead battery or starter

  8. #8
    FEP Senior Member
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    Didn't you previously have a no crank issue with this car? You need to look at the battery condition, the connections on the battery, the battery cables (possible internal break), the starter and its connections. It sounds like the starter relay is doing its job (as evidenced by the click).
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  9. #9

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    Battery is new- Ford. No problem with the cables as I cleaned them when installing the new battery. This happened before with the relay and I put a Ford one on but apparently it went south. I'll double check tomorrow as even with a new TFI no crank or start.

  10. #10
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    A no crank has nothing to do with the ignition system at all. When you turn the key to crank over the engine power is sent to the starter solenoid via a neutral safety switch for an auto trans or a clutch switch on a manual trans. If the starter solenoid clicks, but the starter doesn't turn, you have three possible issues. One the solenoid is bad, two the starter is bad, or three, you have a bad connection somewhere from the battery terminals to the starter motor. That also includes the ground at the engine block.

    Turn on your headlights and turn the key to crank position. Does the lights dim or turn off? If yes, then you have a dead battery or a back battery connection somewhere. If the lights stay on full power, then it's the solenoid of starter.

  11. #11
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    As noted a bad TFI will not cause a no crank situation. It could cause it to crank and crank and not start. You need to focus on the starter circuit. Also, cables can fail internally and look great on the outside. I had a '96 Thunderbird years ago with a bad negative cable. Occasionally you would turn the car off and it just wouldn't turn over at all when you went to restart it. If you don't see anything obvious you might want to run a voltage drop across the positive and negative cables while trying to start it. That will tell you the condition of the cables better than a continuity test.

    I would probably have the battery tested as well just because it is easy and free at any parts store. Stranger things have happened.

    You can test the starter solenoid as boboli noted by jumping the posts on it. If it cranks over then you know what your problem is.

    If those things check out then I would look at the starter.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  12. #12

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    Great ideas and thanks. Since the relay recently was replaced I felt maybe I was unlucky and got a bum relay. I'll check everything again this weekend. Could be battery. Hopefully it is simple.

  13. #13

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    Check all of your ground points and make sure they are clean, and maybe add an extra one for the block. Years ago, I drove my '79 to a parts store to get some supplies and when I tried to go home it was dead. It turned out to be a bad engine block ground. I cleaned all of the ground points and added an extra block to body ground and never had an issue again.
    Project "WinBacK" 1986 LX Hatchback
    - CA car, 5.0 w/5 speed
    - Cobra 17x8.5's + Modded Mach1 Chin Spoiler + 83-84 Hood & Scoop/85-86 "Blackout"+ FMS Mass Air Kit+ MM Clutch Cable & Quadrant + Fiore Cable Adjuster + MM SFC's+ Wild Rides "Battle Boxes" + Explorer Intake, Converted TB & Injectors, 70 mm Mass Air Meter + BBK Ceramic Shorties + 2.5" Bassani O/R X-Pipe & Cat-Back Exhaust w/ 3" Tips + 3L27 w/ Carbon Fiber Clutches​(out of retirement) + Pistol Grip Shifter + 99-04 GT Front/00 Cobra Rear Disc Brakes

  14. #14

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    I was thinking about grounds and will clean them up over the next few days. Where is the factory block to body ground? I think my car is missing it.

  15. #15
    FEP Senior Member
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    The block to body ground is a flat braided strap. It usually attaches to the back of the intake or head and goes to the firewall. It will not be your problem. You have a battery connect problem to the starter or block.

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member Saturn V's Avatar
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    Since you mentioned overheating issues and refilling coolant, I have to throw this out for you to consider. It’s possible that you have a head gasket leak and coolant has partially filled one cylinder, hydrolocking it (coolant doesn’t compress). This may sound theoretical, but I diagnosed this condition by phone on my Dad’s old F150. Similar no-crank scenario. Pull all spark plugs and try to crank. If it cranks and pukes a little coolant out of a spark plug hole, you have a head gasket job ahead of you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Past: '79 5.0 Capri, '86 Buick GN, '90 Mustang GT, '92 SHO, '95 SHO
    Browse cover pages of my Fox Chassis related library

  17. #17

    Default

    Alright. Its end of rope time. Here's where I am at thus far:

    I checked the plugs. No head gasket problem.

    I replaced the starter relay and made sure the connections were clean and nice. Plus I installed a ground strap between the firewall and the back of the intake. Mine was completely missing. Ditto for the O2 sensor ground that exits the ten pin connector. I rechecked idle and timing and the timing was off a bit but not much. Engine starts and sounds good to a degree. It still runs hot under the hood. Not overheating and the gauge stays within the limits. Great.

    But I have the famous surging idle and the car has almost no throttle response. A trip down the block required about three quarters pedal just to get into gear enough to get back to the driveway. So- no power. I didn't hook up the code reader as I am completely convinced I still have codes 41 and 91 since it is very hot under the hood. Besides I didn't use it enough to get codes.

    There are no vacuum leaks. All wires are connected properly. Battery is good with 12.5 volts before starting. Fuel pressure checks out spot on with KOEO and KOER. I might try to pull codes in the near future. I'm tired of working on this car and getting nowhere. Its not drive-able.

    I even pulled the canister purge solenoid and checked to see if it holds vacuum. It does. I checked the Thermactor air numerous times in the past two years and the solenoids switch as they should. There is a small hole just ahead of the driver side cat but downstream of the O2 sensor. I have no leaks anywhere I can see that would cause a problem such as coolant. Good gas and oil. Sparks plugs were pulled and check out.

    When I messed with idle I checked the TPS voltage. It read .96 after minor adjustment of the set screw. Car sounded better after that tweak. But still with the surging and wanting to die.

    So I'm at wits end. Ideas welcome. Thanks all.
    M

  18. #18

    Default

    Sounds like fuel filter. Remove the fuel filter and see if there's ANY resistance to blowing through it... if any, replace...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  19. #19

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    Decided to pull codes anyway and see what happens. Turns out, no more 41 or 91. Code 11 on KOEO and 44 and 94 for KOER. Book says secondary air system not functioning. So maybe some of my efforts paid off, eh? But before I pull solenoids and lines, since I didn't get the codes for TAB and TAD, maybe there is a blockage or some reason perhaps the air isn't switching to downstream? That would explain the underhood heat. Shall check more but not today. Thanks again.

  20. #20

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    Still have the stock exhaust? Maybe the cats are bad(plugging up). Start it and put your hand over each exhaust tip and make sure you have plenty of exhaust flow coming out.
    Project "WinBacK" 1986 LX Hatchback
    - CA car, 5.0 w/5 speed
    - Cobra 17x8.5's + Modded Mach1 Chin Spoiler + 83-84 Hood & Scoop/85-86 "Blackout"+ FMS Mass Air Kit+ MM Clutch Cable & Quadrant + Fiore Cable Adjuster + MM SFC's+ Wild Rides "Battle Boxes" + Explorer Intake, Converted TB & Injectors, 70 mm Mass Air Meter + BBK Ceramic Shorties + 2.5" Bassani O/R X-Pipe & Cat-Back Exhaust w/ 3" Tips + 3L27 w/ Carbon Fiber Clutches​(out of retirement) + Pistol Grip Shifter + 99-04 GT Front/00 Cobra Rear Disc Brakes

  21. #21
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    qikgts's Avatar
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    If you don't see anything obvious and the exhaust looks good as suggested by Banzai, I'd use a IR temp gun and check the temp of each exhaust port on the headers. Any that look too cool or too hot by hundreds of degrees are your bad holes.

    If the injectors look good from my suggestion above, I'd try running it without the o2 sensors plugged in.

    It should go into "limp mode" but with all else correct the only side effect would be poor fuel economy and running rich. Should have plenty of power.

    This car doesn't have a MAF conversion does it?
    '85 GT

  22. #22
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    I had code 44 and 94 when I first bought my Saleen. The car ran ok but it would not pass smog. I found that the air injection ports were all plugged up. The crossover pipe in the back and the heads were full of crud. Once I pulled the crossover pipe it was pretty clear what the problem was. I ended up pulling the headers and all the accessories off the front of the engine so I could get the front plugs out so I could pipe clean the heads. When I was done the car passed smog and ran a lot better.

    Earlier this year I had a surging idle, random stalling, and bucking on my Saleen. When I ran my code scanner, I got the TPS code 63. I adjusted it a couple times within spec. Car would run good on the way to work then run terrible 8 hours later on the way home. I would get home and the TPS voltage would be off again. I bench tested it a couple times to see if there was a dead spot or open in it and everytime it looked to be ok. I adjusted it a couple times and finally realized that the deadspot is where it sits when the engine is at idle. I ordered a new one and could not be happier. The car runs so much better now with the new TPS. No more surging idle and bucking. It is a night and day difference.

    I hope you figure it out because these cars fun to drive in my opinion. My wife and I really enjoy our 86.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  23. #23

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    Since it appears that air is continually going upstream and keeping things hot, I'll likely pull the upper metal tube and clean it up. There may be a leak allowing air into the tube, or there really is a switching problem with the diverter valve. When I ran the KOER test the engine sounded beautiful. I could listen to it all day. May need to clean the IAC again, too. Should know soon when the rain lets up and I have time. Plus the TPS sensor is relatively new on my car, maybe three years tops although I didn't run the car last year. Actually, I think I have a new spare to swap out and try. And no MAF. Pure stock 86 speed density GT.

  24. #24
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Are you setting the base timing with the advance stub out then installing it? Is the electronic advance actually working? Put a timing light on it and rev it with the advance stub pulled. You should see mechanical advance but you should see more when you repeat this test with the stub in place.

    If it doesn’t sound a little pissed off when you rev it then something is wrong

    As a basic process of elimination I would remove the throttle body and EGR spacer and clean the crap out of them with throttle body cleaner. Next I’d put it back together and run it a little. Now is a good time to get some Seafoam spray and spray the heck out of it while it’s idling. I’d also add some to the oil and run it a while then change oil

  25. #25

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    The car only has about ten miles or so since reassembly. Many gaskets were replaced including the throttle body and EGR spacer gaskets. Its all clean. I either have a leak in the upper Thermactor tube or the vacuum routing is not right. I'll get into it tomorrow. But here are some pix:
    I know this is a tight area. Looking straight down the shock tower, the lines for the TAB and TAD are sort of visible. There is one from the intake that splits: its the one with a white vac connector in the top right area. It then splits again- one line to the TAD, the other to the connector underneath maybe from the vac reservoir?
    Name:  5-8-2018GTVac 002.jpg
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    The line from the reservoir is just visible in the center sort of vertical. I had to replace a few lines a few years back and did one at a time and just as Ford made it. Might this be a problem causing switching issues? If the divertor solenoid doesn't switch then Thermactor air stays in the exhaust causing my overheating problem. Here's another photo:
    Name:  5-8-2018GTVac 003.jpg
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    The line from the manifold splits. One branch to the TAB the other to the junction below the TAD- kind of a T intersection. Two sources of vacuum?
    If this is all OK great but I'm not sure. The hood diagram is too small to see. Plus my vehicle has dealer added cruise. Somehow the AC and SC ports on the vac tree were switched. Check it out.
    Name:  5-8-2018GTVac 006.jpg
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    I'll recheck the solenoids and TAB and TAD valves plus the check valves. There doesn't appear to be a leak or break in the upper Thermactor line going to the intakes but I'll look better tomorrow.
    Thanks much.
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