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  1. #1

    Angry (SIGH) Sell Me On Roller Rockers

    So, I've been researching upgrade parts. I'm getting a slightly upgraded but mostly stock style short block along with a new Flowtech cam to go with my GT40P heads and intake.

    It seems like roller rockers is something EVERYONE does, so you'd think it would be a fairly simple thing. But, I'm just confused by it. Seeing as how my build is mild, something that requires less work like a pedestal mount roller rocker would be a good way to go. But there's only ONE brand of them out there I can find, Proform. I have yet to read a good review of them. So what's the deal? EVERYONE goes to all the trouble of converting to stud mounted rockers? As far as I can tell, it's quite the expensive and complicated deal! Remove your heads, have them machines to accept the studs, buy the studs, buy guideplates (do you always need them? I don't know!), and have those welded in, and then and only then can you get the rockers and install them. But then you have to adjust them (why is that good to be able to adjust them again??)... Oh, and let's not forget either new valve covers or spacers because they don't fit under your standard valve covers! I mean, I'd have to guess by the time it's all said and done, you're out some $5-800! All for questionable benefit?! I guess I just don't get it.

    But if I'm going to do them, now is the time because I'll have my heads off anyway.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    Trick Flow DID have a bolt on stud conversion kit, but you won't find them new anymore.

    With a street car of moderate power and mild to moderate camshaft, I personally see no reason not to keep the stamped rockers. You give up a little friction and valve tip wear OVER TIME, maybe 1-2 hp as well... Whoopty doo...
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  3. #3

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    People often go to roller rockers when they want/need a bigger ration in the rocker arm. The heads are designed for a rocker arm with a specific ratio. When you increase that ratio, and don't go moving things around, there are significant increases in the angles/forces between the "sunk in" rocker arm and the valve stem. Without going to a roller rocker, there would be a lot more side loading on the valve-stem and valve. Plus, poor wear patterns on the valve-stem and the stamped rocker arm.

    Rollers Rockers do require less HP. That means more HP at the wheels.
    But, imho, any HP gain is small and not measurable - unless on a very expensive, fully calibrated car-manufacture engine-dyno testing setup.

  4. #4

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    Another benefit of roller rockers is they reduce engine temperature because of less friction in the valvetrain.

    Scorpion pedestal rockers are pricier, but they're made in USA and I've heard good things.
    https://www.jegs.com/i/Scorpion-Raci...P1021/10002/-1

    I have Crane Energizer 1.7s on my Mustang, but they seem to be unavailable again since I bought mine back in February. Don't get the Proforms.



    Matt
    1984 Thunderbird -- 1989 302 HO, GT40 heads w/ Trick Flow springs, E303 cam, Edelbrock Performer 289 intake, Edelbrock 600 4bbl, 85 Mustang dizzy, Jegs o/r h pipe, Dynomax mufflers, Mustang AOD & shifter, Mustang 8.8 w/ 3.73s, Mustang front & rear sway bars, KYB 87-88 TC struts & shocks, and Mustang 11" front brakes.

    1988 Mustang GT hatch -- Explorer intake, GT40 heads with Trick Flow spring kit, Crane 1.7 rrs, E303 cam, 70mm MAF, 70mm throttle body, o/r H pipe, Dynomax mufflers, Kirban Kwik shifter w/ Pro 5.0 Deluxe handle, clutch quadrant & firewall adjuster, and 3.27s
    (86 Mercury Cougar 5.0, 89 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5 speed, 80 Mercury Zephyr 4 door) sold

  5. #5

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    I will 2nd to stay away from Proforms. I know several people who had problems with them on fords. I had them on a mopar big block and had nothing but trouble with them.

  6. #6

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    Yeah, I will not buy Proforms, haha.

    I see Crane's website is down, and has been for some time. That's a shame, I had a lot of hope for them because they made so many varieties. Do you know if those come in 1.6 ratio?

    The Scorpion ones are interesting, but pretty pricey. Maybe that's why they didn't stick in my mind. Though it does seem to save money once you consider all the other expenses of stud mount.

    I assume though, you still need more clearance under the valve covers with pedestal mount, correct?

    I've seen references to needing different pushrods with roller rockers. Is that true with both kinds? Not true at all?

    COMP seems to make a conversion kit for pedestal to stud mount. LMR has it. I assume that would take up even more room under the valve covers though, correct?
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  7. #7
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    I sold a set of crane 1.7 rockers last year for $75. I just had no use for them, since all my heads are now stud-mount. They're out there and usually pretty cheap, as people upgrade heads or scrap their plan of using gt40's for aftermarket aluminum.

  8. #8

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    I changed my heads from stock to Trick Flow 170s. Finding out that I had to get rockers was an education. You will probably have to change push rod lengths and that will put you in the process of finding a solid lifter and claying your engine to check for piston to valve clearance. It isn't hard to do, just takes time. There is info about the process here and elsewhere. I also put Ford Racing valve covers on as the originals were shot. The studs hit the interior baffles so I marked the baffles and used a circle cutter to make relief holes. I am totally happy with the results. Also, as the head and rockers are pretty closely related, I try to stay with the manufacturer. They will tend to want their parts to work well together.
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  9. #9

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    Why solid lifters?
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrEFI View Post
    Why solid lifters?
    I think he was referencing the solid lifter to use while measuring for pushrod length and not saying that you should go to solid lifters.
    '89 XR-7 5 Speed
    '95 SC 5 Speed
    '91 Crown Vic P72 351W
    '97 Thunderbird
    '85 Ford LTD Squire

  11. #11
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    I have roller rockers , and guide plates , etc , and still have stock valve covers .
    clowns to the left of me , Jokers to the right

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVarnes View Post
    I think he was referencing the solid lifter to use while measuring for pushrod length and not saying that you should go to solid lifters.
    That's right. I described how I did it without a solid lifter and got clobbered by the real engine builders. All you need to do is hold the 2 valves up when placing the head on the block over the clay on the piston. Since the spring in the hydraulic lifter is pretty stiff, I just wrapped a section of coat hanger around a 3/4" pipe and used it in place of the valve spring. Worked good for me. Saved having to search for a single lifter or welding one up.
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  13. #13
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    There should be no reason to need to measure for pushrods on a pedestal mount head if simply going to a roller rocker. They're a bolt on piece. Now if you were setting them up with a new set of heads, or a stud mount setup, then yes.
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  14. #14

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    Ah, I imagine that would explain the $50 pushrod measuring tool I've seen on LMR. I'm sure it makes it really easy, but also steep for something you're only going to use once.

    https://lmr.com/item/SVE-PTVTOOL/sve...ing-tool-85-95

    Quote Originally Posted by ashley roachclip View Post
    I have roller rockers , and guide plates , etc , and still have stock valve covers .
    Which ones? I have the aluminum side-fin SEFI style.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member
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    I have the 84 powered by ford aluminum .
    The sefi are lower profile I believe .
    clowns to the left of me , Jokers to the right

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member richpet's Avatar
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    When I built the motor in my Mustang years back I did stud mounted rollers on worked E7 heads, and used the stock 'Powered by Ford' valve covers also. I may have had to remove a baffle. I forget that part.
    83 5.0 GT. Quicker than it looks! 10:1 (or just over) 306, Motorsport a332 cam, 140A alt, t5 conv, 8.8 w/ 3.27's, Edel rpm, alum rad, very worked e7's, Holley SA carb, etc... SOLD IT!!!!

    Now an 1981 Granada! .040 over 302, Edel E-street heads... Currently building a 347 because, why not?

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  17. #17

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    In your case you need to get the cam specs for your cam from ed and see what rockers are needed to achieve the lift. Also there is a lot more to it than it may seem. What springs does the cam require? Will the spring pressure pull the 3/16” pedestal bolt out of the head? If so you need stud mount rockers. If you need studs you need machine shop work and hardened guide plates and hardened push rods. Do you need 3/8 or 7/16” studs? If you switch from pedestal to stud mount you will likely need longer push rods. The good news is even bulky stud mount rockers will fit under efi valve covers with the baffles removed and the ridges ground down.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  18. #18

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    Summit Racing has checking rods.

    https://www.summitracing.com/search/...erms-_-keyword

    $15 to $82
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  19. #19

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    Here is a thread about valve covers that I started. I found my original Powered by Ford covers were cracked through the bases. A machinist might have been able to cut them but I opted to put on Ford Racing replacements.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...72#post1561772
    W

    As always, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's what you think you know that just ain't so."

  20. #20

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    Thanks for the links! That's worth considering. I do like my existing valve covers, but I guess I would be okay with some original-looking stamped ones too, like the Cobra had. I'm sure the actual Cobra ones would be outrageously priced if i did find some since obviously Cobra parts = big bucks. No matter how insignificant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowetlx View Post
    In your case you need to get the cam specs for your cam from ed and see what rockers are needed to achieve the lift. Also there is a lot more to it than it may seem. What springs does the cam require? Will the spring pressure pull the 3/16” pedestal bolt out of the head? If so you need stud mount rockers. If you need studs you need machine shop work and hardened guide plates and hardened push rods. Do you need 3/8 or 7/16” studs? If you switch from pedestal to stud mount you will likely need longer push rods. The good news is even bulky stud mount rockers will fit under efi valve covers with the baffles removed and the ridges ground down.
    Thanks, this got me to thinking about the springs. I have gotten my cam sheet from Mr. Curtis and I had misunderstood him that I could use my existing springs. He intended for me to upgrade, which I will need to do. I did ask him about the stud mount rocker thing, and he told me I should be fine with pedestal mount, although, stud mount is obviously stronger. The sheet states hardened push rods and guide plates are recommended as well. Guess I have to free up more money...
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  21. #21

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    What springs did he spec? The trick flow spring kit is nice for the iron heads. I’ve used that kit with gt40 3 bar heads, stock rockers and a mild comp cam with good results.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  22. #22
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  23. #23

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    Wait a minute... The thing i kept hearing about stud mounted rockers was that they are stronger because they don't use press-in studs. But no Ford head I've seen apart uses press-in studs anyway! It's bolts going in to threaded holes! It's just the studs being stronger than bolts bandwagon that ARP wants us all to jump on! Well, that makes me feel better about using pedestal mount. Maybe I'll get some upgraded bolts to go with them... I see the Crane ones seem to be back in stock on Summit.

    That's not to say studs AREN'T stronger than bolts... I know they are, but still, probably beyond my needs. Not worth the money and trouble to me.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  24. #24

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    What it comes down to is valve train stability at high rpm. The pedestals use a 3/16 bolt with the pedestal. They are not as stable as a 3/8” screw in stud and the 7/16” is even more stable. Plus the smaller pedestal bolt can pull the threads from the head under high spring pressures and rpm. Unless your running some extreme racing cam or springs you should be fine with pedestals. You said earlier that Ed from FTI said you could use pedastals with his springs. I would trust that recommendation as he knows his products best. You really don’t want to sink a bunch of money converting those heads to stud mount. If the valve spring required it I would look into different heads.
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  25. #25

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    Makes sense, thanks.
    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Focus ST
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

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