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  1. #1
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Default Decision time - shortblock woes

    I am evaluating options on the motor for my 1985-006 1E silver four eyed Saleen (tribute) build.


    I have a Edelbrock air gap, Edelbrock heads, and comp cam for it. Essentially a known performer build. Multiple magazines have achieved 399-403HP with this combo of parts at the crank with 400+ lbs of torque on a 302-306 cid bottom end. More on a stroker.


    When we pulled the E7 heads off the motor I’ve had stored we found that the person who sold it to me is a lying sack of crap. 30K mile original motor out of a 90 5.0HO, yea right.


    No, try 0.040 over hyperturatic pistons with valve reliefs the size of Texas. So, a 308.


    I’m weighing my options right now. Attempt a 308 build in this block, attempt a 333 build, or scrap the piece of crap and buy a shortblock to build on top of.


    My heads are 52cc chamber.


    I’ve been asking myself what would Chuck Norris do....


    The car is down in the Austin area getting worked on right now. Soon it will be time to drop a fresh bullet into it. It needs to be rock solid because I’m not doing it twice.
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    Last edited by erratic50; 03-31-2018 at 04:27 AM.

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post

    No, try 0.040 over

    I’m weighing my options right now. Attempt a 308 build in this block, attempt a 333 build, or scrap the piece of crap and buy a shortblock to build on top of.

    It needs to be rock solid because I’m not doing it twice.
    I think you've already answered your own question.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  3. #3
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    Hate to say it, but, scrap it. Just the cost of a gasket set and fluids makes it not worth it to me.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
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    Without knowing what the cylinder wall thickness remaining is, I'd be looking for another engine.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

    1983 Capri L T top 5.0 efi aod
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    93 F-250 351 5sp 4x4

  5. #5
    FEP Senior Member dtmilsap's Avatar
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    I wouldn't chance it, spending more up front for a quality block might save you more money in the long run.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
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    Mahle offers .040" over stroker pistons:

    http://fordstrokers.com/pistons/mahle-power-pak-pistons

    You might want to take a closer look at your block. I just paid $700 to have my 880 SBC block align honed, decked, bored and honed .030" over. You might be able to build what you have into a stroker without the machine work expense.

    Cale

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I'm leaning towards starting with a little more investigating on this block. If its not cracked and the cyl walls are thick enough and are in good shape then build a 308. If not then go after a shortblock or longblock crate motor. I have another four eyed fox to build after this one and that build will be EFI.
    A longblock crate sans intake.... something to consider. I'm thinking forged pistons and chrome rings for longevity.

    If anyone knows of a longblock or shortblock crate that is a particularly good value I'm all ears.



  8. #8
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Reliable replacement dry sleeve steel or iron thinwall liners in alloy engines are just 55 thou thick after block machining.

    Specific to an iron block, they are almost always able to replace the thrust thickness if required.

    The granny tacticts of worry worts aren't to be listened to, as thinwall iron blocks have been sleeved since the extreme thinwall era. For Detriot, the thinwall era started with the 55 Chevy with around 242 thou average thickness with the SBC 265 V8. , The North Italians from OS were in fact using thinwall techniques in 1919, so Detriots invention was in fact a lost art. Ford aggressively embarked on thin wall block castings in 1962 with down to 200 thou thick. Then again in 1969 with shell moulding at the cylinder walls down to 130 thou in the 351 Cleveland and Windsor 351's , and less than 190 tho average elseware.

    The only modern issues are sleeve drift, and, if hardfilling, making sure the heat of hydration doesn't cause the block to get out of true. Cement always grows strength the most in one month. It gradually increases over time, then degrates due to sulphate action or decalcifcation off the aluminosilicates that link the cement together.

    If you hardfill some of the block, your able to make any candidate sleeved block that will be indistructable.

    My advice is find a zero cost overbored block so you don't have to pay any extra overboring costs, and Melling Sleeve the whole block to 3.91" bore, and use 1.58" tall Chevy flatops. There are two sleeve thickness, 3/32 or 5/32. T

    A performance Ford needs 180 thou wall thickness at the wristpin thrust faces.

    40 thou over, it'll be down to 90 thou. Even thick Sleeved, it'll be back to 130 thou. In fact, any cast iron thin wall 4" block, if hardfilled and over bored, you can over bore to a 4.060 piston and still have about 55 thou of cylinder liner wall thinkness in addition to the thinwall bore thickness at the thrust face.

    From post 7013, https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...71263/page-351

    The over boring process on a thinwall 1978 engine is taking out metal in an area that is at best 130 thou thick, sometimes 90 thou. That 90 thou is certainly the case with 90% of all Cleveland 351's that have been sleeved. Hell, Ford Australia sleeved the 1976 to 1982 modle year blocks from the factory to recover the casting cost of an engine, and sold them to customers that way. Mainly due to core shift.
    On the L28's and LD28 diesels, the factory sleeve kits were only 103 thou thick for a start, and the second or third rebuilds on the sleeved engine could end up 60 thou over, taking wall thickness down to 73 thou. You can go another 20 thou over from your current +20, about +40 thou is as much as I'd risk, but your block is hardfilled, so its not an issue really.

  9. #9
    FEP Power Member vintageracer's Avatar
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    Be careful in your selection of the block you purchase.

    For YEARS I would only run a 69-70 Mexican 302 block in my 66 GT350 Vintage race car as a BUDGET way to may decent power rather than the 9000 RPM "Cup" motors the other guys were running.

    My setup was way different than everyone else's as I chose to run a 347 stroker for the torque it provided with a 3.50 rear gear and limit the RPM to 7000. Given tire diameter with this setup the car would run about 163 MPH. Plenty fast in a Vintage Mustang HOWEVER no where near as fast as some of the front runners! Never blew up an engine racing that car UNTIL I deviated from my choice of block when I could not quickly find an extra (3rd) Mexican 302 in a quick pinch for a race I had not planned on going to. A good alternative so I "though" was to purchase a brand new 302 stock block from ford. Same block type of block used in Mustangs up to the end of the 302 run. Bought this block in 2003-2004 time frame.

    Did the usual 347 build, went to VIR and 2 practice sessions and 1 qualifying race later BOOM the engine blew the complete bottom out of the block going from 3rd to 4th gear on the back straight coming out of the "Oak Tree" turn. The block cracked right down the middle of the cam web and blew the complete bottom of the engine out so hard that the steering linkage would not turn. Blew the starter off launching to car is air on the right side of the car at over 100+ MPH. Came to a safe "landing" down towards the end of the straight. I could not turn the steering wheel with the crank and other parts wedged into the steering linkage. The heads, intake and upper parts survived the explosion! Expensive lesson using a NEW "Stock" block.

    Bit the bullitt and bought a SVO 302 block and never looked back.

    Point of my post is "I" suggest you be careful with your block selection when doing a "Stroker" motor and wanting to turn some RPM's.
    Last edited by vintageracer; 03-31-2018 at 08:01 PM.
    Mike
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  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I'm deeply in love with aftermarket Ford small blocks with thick main bearing bulkheads and edge shell section siamesed cylinders with enough thickness to cope with 11000 rpm.

    They come without engine numbers, so they become a potential re-registration issue, but are otherwise worth every cent.



    If i was "forced" to use a stock production block which saw 7000 rpm with a 3" stroke or more, I'd use
    1. hardfill in the water galleries around the cylinder,
    2. sleeves in the block,
    3. Doug P at Horsepower Sales Valley Girdle Pro and
    4. Tickford main bearing girdle

    and
    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    To ensure your investment isn't a lottery ticket of loss, there are block stays, girdles and "belts and braces" you can use to look after a stock 5.0 block. Below 10 grand, you've got to look at options. I'd seriously look at the fully counterweighed SVO stroker cranks. Ford SVO in 1989 used to make a blank steel forging that just needed, oh, 8 hours of grinding to index the crank and journals to perhaps 3.4" inches max. No unbalance.

    If you want to lean on it, get an upper block girdle.

    Doug P at Horsepower Sales Valley Girdle Pro

    http://www.horsepowersales.net/



    Cracking is eleviated by light weight Hyper cast pistons with long rods. The development Ford Australia did for its stock bore "347" was only to tie the base of the 2002 Explorer block, and then reduce recipricating mass of the engine, even with a 3.4" stroke, 6000 rpm and 335 hp is well within nice limits for a 342 or 347.

    The Tickford engineers from Prodrive designed a simple Tickford main bearing girdle.

    .....

  11. #11

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    With a 52cc chamber you should still have a decent compression ratio even with those pistons. Anything wrong with the shortblock(other than not being what you thought it was)? How do you plan to use the motor?
    That shortblock with the top end you have listed should be a stout motor. I wouldn't waste the time and money building a stroker with a factory 5.0 block. 351w sure, but not a 302, that is if you really don't want to do things twice.

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Would have to measure the valve reliefs but they look like I’ll end up at about 9 or 9.5 if I were to guess. That’s a far cry from the 11-12 I had planned, kiss 40-50 HP goodbye.

    The car is going to do some cruises and some shows and make an occasional lap at an SCCA track. It might end up on the 1/4 mile dragstrip a time or two also but with that facia and running just a T5 I have my doubts. I mainly just want to have fun with the car. 400 is just a number but it’s what that particular build should make on a dyno at the crank if it’s running right.

    Whats interesting is that DSS is offering 0.060 level 20 blocks that aren’t for high horsepower applications. It sorta suggests I’m just being paranoid about 0.040 over at a N/A and under 7000 RPM power level.

    the physics involved say based upon feet per second at the ring and common rod and crank strengths a 3” stroke is ok to 7000, a 3.25” to 6500, and a 3.4” to 6000 ... and no more. the factory roller blocks tend to split at 500HP. I’ve targeted not more than 400 to have a 20% margin of safety.

    A 333 could exceed 450 HP and a 349 could go north of 475. They make stump pulling torque but it’s hard to put to the ground. Also those power levels are begging for trouble in a stock block.

    It seems like a 308 is the way to go or turn it down and keep thevR’s down or scrap this block.

  13. #13
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    The fact that the block is 40 over doesn't bother me. What bothers me, is that it completely changes your plans for the motor. If you are anything like me, no matter how this motor turns out, you won't be happy and will probably second guess how it "should " have been, and will eventually wind up replacing it anyhow. You are into this car so deep already, that I would just start with a block that lets you build what you want, not what you wind up with.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  14. #14
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Ford Racing Offers several options, but unfortunately they are probably more than you really want to spend. They do carry a 2 year / 24,000 mile warranty so that is nice.

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/engines/

    http://www.fordracingbyspeedshopdire...caAtg4EALw_wcB

    http://www.fordracingbyspeedshopdire...MaAs17EALw_wcB

    Obviously since you already have the heads, etc. you could do the DSS short block in a 331 or 347. You don't get the warranty, but it does save you some $$$.

    http://shop.dssracing.com/Small_Bloc...shortblock.htm
    Last edited by wraithracing; 04-01-2018 at 01:20 PM.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
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  15. #15
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    How do the bearings, crank, and cylinder walls look?

    How much money do you have in it?

    If it's in good shape, you might sell it as a cruiser engine and build on a different block.

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    8K for a longblock isn't in the cards. While I could spend it and even justify it given the rest of the build I'm just not going to....

    The DSS shortblock isn't a bad idea. I have no problem with running 3.25" stroke inside of an 8.2" deck height block.

    Build plans are only as good as the plan itself. If you buy parts then deviate from the initial plan it gets complicated for sure. Back when I started planning this build I was flat broke so I did a lot of homework. For the shortblock honestly any old 87-91 roller motor with its factory parts in decent condition would yield the exact result I was originally looking for. The top end and cam parts I bought are essentially a known performer selected because of their use in multiple builds that produced the result I was after.

    I'd go after a McParts store reman motor but for whatever reason those dunces seem to pull out the forged pistons and chrome rings and put in the cheapest crap they can find -- and they seem to do it even if the core they got in doesn't actually need pistons!

    We'll look at what it will take to make this "rip-off" motor usable and go from there.

    I only have $300 in it for what appeared to be a stock pan to intake 5.0L. No loss given what the parts there are worth, but disappointing when it had looked like I had gotten a lot better deal than this turns out to be.

    I have around $800 in the AirGap, Edelbrock Heads, and cam. I'm farily sure II could sell them for more than I have in them -- that's the idea behind the way I always buy parts.

    Currently I'm just irritated that I have deal with this crap and deviate from my build plan. I intended to be able to bolt on heads and intake and swap cams and go.

    So now I scrape up the pile of parts and go from there.

  17. #17
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The Block checks out OK. Bore taper is minimal.

    Going to get a DSS 3.25” stroke crank, new rods, forged pistons, chrome rings.

    Pistons will be short stroker pistons of course.

    Building a 0.040 over bore with a 3.25” stroke, so a 333.

    Shooting for 11:1 compression because in hot weather any higher compression on 91 octane could detonate.

    The comp cam I had picked is ideal for a 302 and that’s not what I’m building. I’m going to have flowtech do a custom roller cam focused on area under the curve. Idle to 6500.

    Hopefully dyno results will demonstrate the amount of research that was invested.

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The cam I had selected to run with the Edelbrock heads back when it was going into Trigger to run with EFI on E85.

    Name:  64F757F1-6626-4707-8CBE-68CA70F42123.jpg
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    Last edited by wraithracing; 05-13-2018 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Picture Correction

  19. #19
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Those who have followed my Saleen build thread know that I bought a 331 Shortblock from CHP and it had a terrible accident during shipping. Trey had to refuse it and we've started over. CHP wanted to go through the thing and send it back to us -- no way in hell. Demanded a refund. So now there's no shortblock to play with until I get one ordered.

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I didn’t mention that the cam selected in the end is a Flowtech grind good from idle to 6500 on a 331. The heads are in fact 60cc 1.94” Edelbrock heads. The Flowtech computer model suggests around 440HP and 450 lbs of torque from a 10:1 331 with Airgap intake and headers and the cam. Output would jump to 480HP and 490 lbs but give up some low and midrange with an AFR 185 head. CNC prepped 165’s were predicted to be “the bomb” with this motor making 470 and 485 with no loss of low and mid vs the Edelbrocks..... but I’ve owned the Edelbrock for 12 years so I’m going with them....

    My current shortblock for this motor idea Trey and I are kicking around after I did a crap load of research and made several phone calls..... is to buy an 8.2 deck Boss block from a ford racing and a scat stroker kit. Have a machinist finish the bores, plastigauge the rods and mains, assemble it, and send it....

    We haven’t decided if it’s a great idea or not for sure yet— still mulling it over.

    one of the question marks for me is bore and stroke. No question — it will be a stroker with forges pistons, I beam rods, and forged crank, etc. then comes the part to think through....

    Could go 4.00 x 3.25” for a 327 or go 4.030 x 3.25” and stay 331 or punch it out to 4.125 with a 3.25” stroke and build a 347 with a lot better physics behind it.

    The go for broke guys build them as 363 via 4.125 x 3.40 stroke. What I don’t like about the strokes longer than 3.25” is two fold. For one, there is a bit too much low end torque for what I want to do with the car and it won’t be rev happy enough. Also the velocity at the ring and the forces in play as RPM climbs past 6000 with 3.4” or more stroke sucks. The physics behind a 3.25” stroke is quite a bit better and has a healthier rod ratio.

    I want to put something together that stays together. I like driving them one hell of a lot more than I like working on them....

    As much as I like the big bore concept, the down side is once you bore that big the material is gone. A 4.125 block is really only good for one time around unless you bore it and sleeve it back

    Pricing out rotating assembly kits I’m mostly leaning towards 3.25” x 4.030.

    What I like about this idea for a motor setup is there are no parts in it that scream ticking time bomb. The engineering behind the combo is very solid.

    And hell - if I drop the planned compression from 10.5:1 to 9:1 just think of all the boost this motor would put up with if the output just isn’t enough down the road.

    Na..... it will be plenty. It’s no supercharged coyote but anywhere near double the factory output it should get down just fine.

    Anyway - mainly looking at the guys who have had a lot of success with reliable N/A relatively big power combos. I’m not looking to build this beast more than once. I want it to take pass after pass at the drag strip, run anywhere to anywhere on the interstate, and do lap after lap on a road course if I decide I want to. Just your basic bad-ass Mustang. It doesn’t need to be the fastest one anywhere but needs to make a statement worth the capital spent.

    If it doesn’t have enough balls for an 11 second time slip it’s getting a power adder— I swear.
    Last edited by erratic50; 08-23-2018 at 10:34 PM.

  21. #21
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    Had my 347 and beat on it with hundreds of pounds of nitrous through it , for nearly 20 years , still runs great , and I get 27 mpg on the hiway.
    3.73 gear, T5z , 275/40/17 .
    I have Edebrock heads , have had extensive 5 axis work done on them , an old Edelbrock intake and Holley 650 .
    Good engine , handles 7k rpm easy , run in cam class scca racing , and hit the drags a few times a year for fun .
    clowns to the left of me , Jokers to the right

  22. #22
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashley roachclip View Post
    Had my 347 and beat on it with hundreds of pounds of nitrous through it , for nearly 20 years , still runs great , and I get 27 mpg on the hiway.
    3.73 gear, T5z , 275/40/17 .
    I have Edebrock heads , have had extensive 5 axis work done on them , an old Edelbrock intake and Holley 650 .
    Good engine , handles 7k rpm easy , run in cam class scca racing , and hit the drags a few times a year for fun .
    7K with a stock roller block, or something better? If its a stock roller block, you've had a really great run with it! Remarkable actually considering the forces in play up there.

    The feet per second at the ring package with a 3.40" crank at 7K is pretty obnoxious actually. They've done well to stand up to that.

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