6-speed swap

[erratic50]

I was out cruising the web and came across articles discussing the Nissan CD009 6-speed transmission and driveline swaps. Apparently the 2nd generation of these 6-speeds come with a steep low gear, close ratios, and capacity for over 500HP easily.

Whats most interesting is that they can be gad for $150-200 and there is a growing base of bellhousing based adapters for them.

Much like the commonplace powerglide swap you cut off the as cast housing off at the prescribed location - in the case of the Nissan — the 2nd casting ring. Next you pull the front bearing carrier and swap on the adapter assembly, then you are good to go. Interesting...

Low gear is around 4 and high is around 0.8 and all the gears are stacked closely.

3.97 * 2.73 = 10.83
0.80 * 2.73 = 2.18

The target ratio off the line in a small tire car is usually around 12. The FD target for a car driven around on the freeway is usually not more than 2.5

The LS nuts are getting a $350 adapter kit and picking up a 6-speed strong enough for an LS with a few mods.

I haven’t see anyone crazy like a fox running a smallblock ford in front of one but if they hold 500+ HP and are 1/2 the price of a strong T5 and add another gear, that’s a lot to take in.

So my question is has anyone tried such a setup behind a pushrod Ford? Thoughts, considerations, what it took to do it, etc.

[Mustang-junky]

Following.

Jess

[v8only]

those gear ratios are crap for a v8. That 3.97 first gear is the same as a 4 cyl t5. It'll make first gear useless. Additionally, a .80 6th is sad. That'll provide almost no overdrive.

Just for comparison, the f body t56 trannies have a .50 6th gear. I would cruise with 373 gears at 2k rpms at 80.

Unless that trans has better gear ratios, it would not be a good choice to use

[Haystack]

I agree. My 3.35 1st gear t5 felt short, and it went to 35mph with 2.73 gears. A .80 I'd is useless. My buddies Toyota has 4.88 gears with a .8 od. You can barely tell.

I don't really get the 1:1 5th gear either. I'd rather have a double od. Never felt like I needed to shift more getting up to 40mph.

[Broncojunkie]

Still, regardless of the gearing, the price sounds good and strength makes it seem like a valid option worth exploring.

[erratic50]

Honestly final drive and launch ratio are what to pay attention to. The rest fall into line with equal gear spacing.

If you have a 2.73 rear gear the transmission will make it act like you swapped to much lower rear gears.


CD009 with 2.73 rear gear - 1st gear
2.73 * 3.97 = 10.83

T5Z with 3.73 rear gear - 1st gear
3.73 * 2.95 = 11.0

T5 with 3.55 - 1st gear
3.55 * 3.35 = 11.89

CD009 - very slightly higher low gear. Generally desireable on a street/strip car. Can be tweaked to a 3.08 if more launch ratio is desired.
3.08 * 3.97 = 12.22 This is LOWER than T5Z with 4.10 ! (12)



CD009 with 2.73 rear gear - 6th
2.73 * 0.80 = 2.18

T5Z with 3.73 rear gear - 5th
3.73 * 0.63 = 2.34

T5?with 3.55 - 5th gear
3.55 * 0.68 = 2.41

CD009 - considerably higher high gear vs either T5 based combo

now take your 2.97:1 1st / 0.50:1 6th ratio T56

Likely you’ll go after a 4.10 rear gear
4.10 * 2.97 = 12.177 (usually considered too low)
4.10 * 0.50 = 2.05 (only marginally better than CD009)

Or a 3.90
3.90’* 2.97 = 11.58
3.90 * 0.50 = 1.95


Cost vs strength vs ratios available to the driver, is there REALLY a down side?

Keep in mind driveshaft RPM has its limits too.

[erratic50]

I have yet to find anyone that makes an adapter to go CD009 to SBF. There are options for LS but I haven’t seen one for Ford.

Using the typical cut the trans off at the 2nd casting ring I’m curious how far off it is with some drilling to run the front bearing retainer bolts through a T5 bellhousing. Would make for an install trans plus bellhousing all in one similar to the T56. Release fork and other things would have to be figured out or converted to a slave cyl setup.

[Haystack]

I did my sn95 T5 swap for less than the adapter plate would cost you can pick those up and junk yards for $125 all day long it bolts in and the newer V6 Transmissions are as strong or stronger than a GT I really see no downside

[erratic50]

Well..... the thought behind this thread was to discuss a cost effective way to

1 - get a 6-Speed
2 - eliminate the need for a rear gear swap
3 - install a 6-speed transmission that holds 550+ and can be replaced cheaply when it goes out.

But yes, it’s another option and I see your point.

[darkd0r]

Those ratios might be good for a swap into an older 1/2 ton 2wd pickup, if there was a cheap adapter. Start off in 2nd most of the time, until you need the lower gear of 1st.

[Haystack]

I've been trying to read up on these all morning. I haven't found a single ford to nissian adapter (all though the Chevy one is probably close enough to modify if you were dead set) and the price is anywhere from $350 (the cheapest I saw) to $950 just for the adapter plate. The bell housing cutoff is supposedly easy enough anyone could do it, but I couldn't find a picture or exact instructions.

Lastly, looking at used transmissions for the Nissan CD009, the cheapest used one I found was about $800, while rebuilt ones all seem to list in the $1200-1800 range.

Now all things considered, I found quite a few nissian to ford t-5 and t-56 adapters and tons of information about how much easier and cheap that swap was when doing an lsx or 1jz(supra) swap. I also found quite a few adapter plates for both t-5's and t-56's to stock nissian engines.

All things considered, it seems it might be a fairly beefy 6 speed for road racing, but I don't get why nissian guys would swap to the ford t5 and t-56 if it was so much better.

Overall it does look like it would be marginally stronger, but still way more expensive then a good t-5 or a t-56; and I still haven't found anyone that makes the adapter or a clutch for the swap yet.

[erratic50]

darkd0r - please explain your comment on ratios. Did you not notice the math above that calculated the ratios T5 and T5Z vs CD009 with various rear gears?

When looking at ratios you have to take into account what the rear gear is.

Ever taken off in 4th while locked into low lock four wheel drive in a truck with 4.10’s? Piece of cake because low lock doubles up the “rear gear”.

[erratic50]

Thought this was interesting.....

collinsadapters. collinsadapters./index.php/ford-5-0-to-350z-partial-swap-kit.html

looks like the CD009 bolts up with this plate. Too bad it’s so over priced

[ashley roachclip]

Buy a T56 and be done .
Cost of all the extra parts you will exceed any savings on the transmission.

[erratic50]

Buy a T56 and be done .
Cost of all the extra parts you will exceed any savings on the transmission.

its very valid feedback and the route most people will likely go.

Im curious about alternatives and cost saving approaches because - let’s face it — that’s what hotrodding is about.

I don’t like a frankenstein any more than the next guy and going to the parts store to service cobbled together stuff SUCKS!

The flip side is the Tremec stuff gets very expensive when you start getting into motors that rev to 6500 or beyond. They just don’t like to shift past 6000 very well in my experience. They may do it for a while but then synchros bust when you’re driving it easy later on and trash the gear box. (experienced with this a bit....)

I’ll see how my Gforce T5 hold up behind my 331 stroker once my Saleen build is done. I predict it will not like my usual 6000+ RPM powershifts and it’s going to let go well before it’s time.

The idea is to have something figured out well in advance of that and have all of the research done before then.


keep in mind with the ratios in the CD009 rear gear swaps for the sake of mechanical advantage are a thing of the past if you want them to be. There’s some real cost savings there.

[xctasy]

Ratios are actually

First Gear Ratio (3.79:1)
Second Gear Ratio (2.32:1)
Third Gear Ratio (1.62:1)
Fourth Gear Ratio (1.27:1)
Fifth Gear Ratio (1.00:1)
Sixth Gear Ratio (0.79:1)



Soo, erratic is 100% right on the suitable gearing. Pefect!


Just a ring gear and pinion swap. The cut off bellhousing option was used for the International Group A Mustangs... they used a German Vauxhall VX4/90 /BMW 3.0 CSL/Volvo 264 V6's 1975 5 speed gearbox option with the inside bolted integrated bellhousing unbolted.


The normal approach is to recalculate as a 4 speed with 1:1 4 Th two plus two overdrives.


1st 2.984:1
2nd 1.827:1
3rd 1.276:1
4 th 1.000:1
5th 0.787:1
6th 0.630:1

Just the same spacing as the TR 600.

Your axle ratio just has to be taller by 1.27 for it to work.


So if you had a set of 3.08:1 gears, you'd then need a set of 2.47's to make it work the same as a US 6 speed.


Take the coomon faxctory final drive axle ratio you'd use normally, then divide it down a ratio of 3.08/1.27--->2.425 is near enough to the F150 2.47 8.8" ring and pinion option for V8's.

If your 5speed would use 4.10's---> 3.23's. so use 3.27's. You get a 2.59:1 6th gear overall.

If your 5speed would use 3.73's--->, its gives gives 2.92's so go 3.08's or near to it as a 6 speed and you get a 2.43:1 6th gear overall.

If your 5speed would use 3.08's---> 2.425, so use 2.47's. You get a 1.95:1 6th gear overall.



You can get 2.26's and 2.47's in the 7.5,
There was supposed to be 2.33's from the 1969-1970 8" equiped Ford 250's. Eg Grande Mustang, 250 Ford Mustang Economy package engine, rare
The 8.7" Sterling axle held the same 2.47:1 gears in most of the 1975-1980 Ford Granada 250, 255, 302 and 351's.
and 2.47's used for the 8.8" (not listed on Yukkon Gear, but they are around, see https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=...596107#p596107)
and 2.47's from the 9" axle (YG F9-247 ).

[xctasy]

I have yet to find anyone that makes an adapter to go CD009 to SBF. There are options for LS but I haven’t seen one for Ford.

Using the typical cut the trans off at the 2nd casting ring I’m curious how far off it is with some drilling to run the front bearing retainer bolts through a T5 bellhousing. Would make for an install trans plus bellhousing all in one similar to the T56. Release fork and other things would have to be figured out or converted to a slave cyl setup.

There is a Chev to Ford adaptor to mate the LS bellhousing to the Nissan CD009 gearbox.


The THM 400 to Cleveland adaptor is a common swap down here.

Advance Adapters 712588-A - Advance Adapters Ford to Chevy Transmission Bellhousing Adapters, 424 ping.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...view/make/ford

For the those who cannot understand Ford Service manuals, and get there heads around FMX and AOD's and AOD-E. And C6's.


This is so easy, its a cake walk. Nice idea.

[xctasy]

2.47:1 isotropic finished ring and pinion
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65424&start=50

My 81 F-150 did come with a T-18 and 2.73's. If a set of 2.47's were to fall into my lap for free I would be inclined to swap them in; certainly wouldn't spend much money to do it though as the gains would be small.

Just to let you all know, I've located a set of these gears and they should land on my doorstep within a few weeks after a stopoff for isotropic finishing.

The drop from my 2.73:1 should be a bit less than 11 percent, and I'd be happy with a five percent bump in fuel economy. Since the finishing only cost $79 at PEM, I figured I'd give it the full treatment, even though it is only likely to make a very small difference in MPG.

If the charts I've seen are correct, the finishing would make a difference of between 1/10th and 3/10th mpg. Anything in that range would be fine with me, and if I get nothing, then I at least won't have to worry about what might have been.

For anyone else interested, my research suggests that you'd find these gears in 83-86 Broncos and F-150s, probably with 4-speed transmissions and high gear ratios. Just a guess about those last bits. Junkyard search would probably be best, because they are REALLY SCARCE on the internet.

You're looking for a tag something like this:

S800A
247884xxx

[erratic50]

The other thing is you start to sacrifice longevity and strength when you throw steep rear gears at a car. The higher (numerically lower) ratios often withstand more input and more abuse in a given axle design — at least to a point.

In highschool I helped a buddy ditch a set of 4.10’s with a TH200-R4 automatic in a G body after he just kept breaking the ring and pinion. We went to a Muncie 4 speed and gears in the low 3’s..... Seems like 3.08 if I remember correctly. He ended up with about the same ratios across the board but the rear diff held up much better

real bitch getting a manual to work in a G body without a donor. We used quite a mess of junkyard stuff

[erratic50]

Adapter plate ... but it’s $650

http://collinsadapters.com/index.php...ter-plate.html

[v8only]

man that 6th is just about useless as an overdrive gear. in contrast, a t5 5th is .63.

The better route to go is to pick up a used t56 magnum from a 10+ camaro, and swap the main shaft and tail shaft out to convert it to a t56 magnum

[erratic50]

As I’ve said — you have to look at all the ratios and correct for rear gear. As long as there is a good stair step on the ratios the rest can be sorted with rear gear.

In the end there’s few replacements for a Viper spec T56 kit from D&D performance.

I thought about this and brought it up because recognize the big down side to having a pinion that is routinely spinning 8500-12000 RPM at speed. Also T56’s don’t really like high RPM shifts that well.

I eventually want to build a big bore aftermarket SBF based engine that will turn 8500 or even 10000. Something that pays proper tribute to the old Cleveland builders that - let’s face it guys — were completely nuts for their era. They took a motor that had sub 400 CID with ungodly air flow and were making 900-1000 in NA trim. These screamers “idled” at 1900, left the line at 8500 and shift at 10K.

[erratic50]

As I’ve said — you have to look at all the ratios and correct for rear gear. As long as there is a good stair step on the ratios the rest can be sorted with rear gear.

In the end there’s few replacements for a Viper spec T56 kit from D&D performance — but only within the design limits of the T56.

I thought about this and brought it up because I recognize the design limits - and also big down side to having a pinion that is routinely spinning 8500-12000 RPM at speed.

On big limit — T56’s don’t really like high RPM shifts that well.

I eventually hope to build a big bore aftermarket SBF based engine that will turn 8500 or even 10000. Something that pays proper tribute to the old Cleveland builders that - let’s face it guys — were completely nuts for their era.

They took a motor that had sub 400 CID with ungodly air flow and were making 900-1000 in NA trim. These screamers “idled” at 1500-1900 choppy, left the line at 8500 and were shifted past 10K and the transmissions of that era were only lightly nodded yet could withstand it.

Anyway — it’s fun to think about this one off stuff because when it works it’s genius and damn cool

[erratic50]

There are a few more kits out there now for putting a SBF in front of a CD009 but honestly I found something a whole lot wilder this morning. A Barra to CD009 adapter kit.

The power potential vs weight of the Barra is pretty amazing. I doubt I’ll ever have the ambition or budget or time to throw at such a build but it would make for a radical powertrain that’s sure to impress

https://pmcmotorsport-shop.com/eng_m...raits%5B92%5D=


The down side to swaps is all the engineering that has to go into making stuff work properly of course

Lots more room for turbos with an I6 under the ol bonnet - eh?