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  1. #76
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    '85 GT

  2. #77

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    Wait and see the mad function if/when we get this to Jim and onto a 302 and a dyno he mentioned...







    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 08-01-2018 at 08:41 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  3. #78
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Too bad you’re in Canada and I’m building a 331. I’ve not see a more detailed examination of a 4180. Hell — follow it carefully and a guy might even be able to make a few cars run right for the first time in decades!

    We’ll see what my 331 does with the Flowtech cam and Edelbrock heads and AirGap and Edelbrock 600 on the dyno.

    It looks like some idiot dropped the pallet my shortblock was in off of a loading dock in transit.

    As excited as I was to see paint on the car it was quickly stomped down by whatever smashed the box my motor was in! it got the ol refused return to sender thanks to Trey watching out for me and us making a very hard to accept call that we know is the right one. Still in disbelief.

    Just trying to stay patient on the deal now until another virgin block is punched out to 4.030 and the replacement stroker shortblock is assembled and balanced and packed hopefully better and shipped. 1/2 the battle today is finding a 4.000 bore block that’s rebuildable to begin with!

    I’ll buy an aftermarket block before I allow my 1986GT to cough up its block..... my rule is the new to me fox is up and going and being enjoyed before my 86 gets blown apart for restoration.

  4. #79

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    Doesn't have to be too bad... whatcha thinkin'? 4180's are convoluted, and that's not surprising, coming from corporate think, which has nothing to do with least of all best function or the best of anything, besides the best bottom dollar. This sucker, straightened out and with a balanced and efficient calibration, should run absolute circles (as to crisp, clean, balanced, power-producing, and fuel efficient function) around an original or a purchased rebuilt.

    With those Edelbrock heads, with their faster burning combustion chambers, total mechanical/centrifugal timing for the engine should be happiest being conservative, like 34-degrees BTDC, and at somewhere past 5000rpm when it's "all in"... and with an "airgap" intake, the carburetor's idle/transition calibration for the engine will be happiest slightly richer than usual... because lesser than usual heat gets to the carburetor.

    Sorry about your troubles. Jacka$$es everywhere, it seems.

    I'm to shortly look at a couple virgin '87+ 302 blocks, where I'm hoping to get away with just honing some and re-ringing, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, timing set, etc...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  5. #80

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    Got the majority of everything installed into the original but modified 4180 primary metering block. Still just need main well cup plugs for up top.


    Installed top plugs in the original holes' locations that lead to the main air bleed air wells, and installed the new booster air correction bleeds in their new traditional vertical locations...






    Installed, up from the bottom, the primary idle feed restrictions in their new traditional vertical locations...






    The power valve channel restrictions...






    Plugged the access holes for the booster air correction bleeds, the tops of the idle wells and main air bleed air wells, and the bottoms of the idle wells that are access holes for the idle feed restrictions...








    So, the primary idle feed restrictions and power valve channel restrictions are adjustable (change out the threaded restrictions for different sized restrictions) now for the ability to dial-in any situation of mild-to-wild vehicle that the carburetor might find itself on.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  6. #81

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    Visual for the idle wells and the new IFRs (idle feed restrictions) positions:



    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  7. #82

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    Sorry for the huge time lapse in this thread. I've been a very busy guy, with rebuilding and custom building Holley's and others, making one vehicle at a time far more powerful and maximally fuel efficient... as well as yanking the '86 Mustang here's 3.8 engine and transmission and trying to line up the parts needed for the Windsor and the car etc... spring time here is going to be an interesting time.

    We do not need a "kit" per say for this 4180 Holley, so Santa will be bringing the following:

    All non-stick gaskets


    New 0.110" needles and seats, 8.5"Hg power valve, new vacuum secondary diaphragm, as well as a new accelerator pump diaphragm...




    ... a secondary metering block with jets will also be going onto this, with an extended length float bowl transfer tube and new style cup plugs instead of the longer Holley tube and o-rings...

    What should we do with this 4180 carburetor, FEP gang?

    Jim ( "FB71" ) had mentioned to me earlier that he could have access to a stock 302 and a dyno for testing. I think that would be ideal. Before this goes to anybody, I would really love most especially for the behavior of the annular primary boosters to be mapped out after the changes back to basic standard function and calibration I have done, mostly with the original primary metering block... their initiation/start-up/activation point/rpm found, which should be in the neighborhood of 2000-2500rpm, their air:fuel ratio delivery at higher loads and at wide open throttle throughout the rpm range found, which should be ~12.5:1, and/or adjusted for with alternate, probable smaller jetting, etc... so when this is together and ready I think that would be a great idea, sending it to Jim for analysis and any changes required. I don't yet have anything to which I could bolt this onto and see what it acts like and make any needed changes... so that'd be a great opportunity to scope it out and dial it in for whoever it's headed to for BETTER-THAN-EFI function...

    After that, we could auction it off, or sell inexpensive tickets and with a random number generator or something like that for the chance to own and use this one-of-a-kind (for now - I plan to incorporate fixing or at least completely and properly rebuilding these for people into my regimen - anybody wanting a (FEP-member-discounted) winter refresh or optimization so she's ready to rock'n'roll in the spring when you roll the Mustang out, PM me for details...) optimized 4180 Holley carburetor to a lucky winner. I'm not looking to get rich... I would just really appreciate this going to somebody who is going to use it where it would have been, or is the equivalent to original equipment on a Mustang, or other Fox body, and exceed all emissions and power and fuel efficiency expectations... as well, I would like part of the proceeds to go to Jim for his efforts and contributions, and some continued support also given to this FEP forum for the importance of it's continued existence IMHO is needed...

    What say you? Please chime in with your thoughts of the above or potential better suggestions...

    Thank you,
    Mike
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 11-30-2018 at 01:23 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  8. #83

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    C'mon... 4400+ views of this thread... surely there's valuable input from you guys to be had...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  9. #84
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    It’s an awesome carb and a great idea

  10. #85
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    It’s an awesome carb and a great idea

  11. #86

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    I don't need any monetary compensation for my involvement. I'm happy to pop it on a stock 5.0 and run it on our dyno. All I really want out of the deal is guidance on how to replicate the carb myself, as I've never had a deep understanding of them. I'm a child of EFI...
    Jim DeAngelis
    Cornucopia of Useless Knowledge
    Connoisseur of Dearborn Ferrous Oxide
    '83 GT hatch, currently under the knife
    '79 Capri 2.3L n/a, Medium Copper metallic, survivor
    (bought from MRausch82)

  12. #87
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    And that is what the 1979-1988 4-bbl 4180/4190/4195 C, E, or EG carb is. Its a white box carb under six different part numbers that works in a 302, 350, 351, 366, 370, 429, 454 or 460, car, truck, 4X4 or 8500 pund plus truck, and Holley was forced to Do S|-|!+t Like Dat to Just win a Freekin Auto maker Customer.


    As stated before, Holley were working to Chevrolet and FoMoCo's brief.




    Holley changed the basic 4150/4160 stuff to the new 4180c/4185/4190/4195 protocol. For both passenger cars, and plus 8500 pound GVWC trucks, often with Vacuum Governers.

    The Colt Industries boys, under the need to get sales, they signed off on a vast array of Major changes, and it was done

    all over,
    ad hoc,
    hogus bogus and
    hocus pocus.

    on the idle circuit, but it was done by air bleed,

    and the swiss cheese method is J-U-S-T how it was done, so the External Durasaprk or HEI module could then be run through its specifically variable Other O-T-H-E-R calibration methods.
    And on the main ciruit.

    Soooooo


    a 1979 F100/200 429 had one VECI system.Then changes each year till its demise
    An F250 460 another. Then changes each year till its demise
    A 4v 370 F 700 another. Then changes each year till its demise
    An F150 5.8 HO without A/c a twin snorkle intake, with a 5.0 GT 4V style VECI system. Then changes each year till its demise
    An F150 5.8 HO with A/c a single snorkle intake, with a 5.0 GT 2V style VECI system. Then changes each year till its demise
    A 49 state 5.0 GT 4V another style of VECI system, with changes to the 83 set up for 84, 84.5, and 85
    A Hi Alt State 5.0 GT 4V another style of VECI system, with changes to the 83 set up for 84, 84.5, and 85
    A CA state 5.0 GT 4V another style of VECI system, with changes to the 83 set up for 84, 84.5, and 85


    The Annular Carb technology was just a disputed patent that a guy in England tried to own. Ford, via Autolite and the Motorcraft worked the 16 year provsional paternt the world over from 1957, and by 1979, Holley was only able to supply that Annular Discharge technogly back to Ford as an OEM Holley for Ford carb,

    or to GM, via another white box supply.


    Read the Float Bowl. Why the patents? Because it was all reworked as per Ford and GM's techncial briefs. And as any patent attorney knoes, the Annular Discharge patent is one of those things that was a gift to the Ford Motor Company. It bascially made annular discharge carbs in Belfast, Michigan, and used the technolgy, and no one contested it, because Ford was using it, and even Ford couldn't foot a worlD wide patent. So they buit it in Ireland, Belfast as the Autolite 1250 and the USA, as any other Autolite 1100, 1101, 2100 or 4100, 4300 or 4350 whatever thingy-ma gig.

    And of course, the Anti Trust squad was busy trying to bitch slap public companies for collusion, and Ford then found that being a big boy on the block ment that a whole bunch of lawyers were gonna have to decide how a 2150 Motor Craft or 1946 Holley was going to look if it was based on a 1957 Autolite 2100 or 1940 Autolite 1-bbl. The Feds forced Ford to sell out as Bendix and Prestolite had pendeng legal action against Ford.

    And that is what the Holley 4180c is . An Olive branch or wacked out Hybridized cross drillings with enough Vaccum take offs to make it levitate in Area 51 by appication of 10 " Hq to the BV port on the Foward and Astern Float bowl.

    The Hot Idle Compensator was just another example of how convoluted Fords processes had to be, bcause as soon as a York or FridgaAire or Harrison A/C pump was shoved in close proximity to that piece of Holley cast alloy, the Throttle Kickers and all the other crutches required ot control idle speed were further screwed over by other O-T-H-E-R things.

    The Idle and Wide open throttle Well tube calibration is indeeed based on the "working" gasoline level in each condidtion, and that woking level was conotroled by the air cleaner and blowl venting system. As a blatant crutch for another line of tuning the VECI the Dyno and emissions guys did.

    The spark advance cuve did indeed jiggy gig it with a vast array of Load Control and TVS valves, to invoke some kind of emissions control with the same 4180, 4190 or 4195 line reference carb that was a white box items to Ford and GM. GM used it so they copuld cash in on the demised of the Carter Thermoquad when the EPA brankrupted ACF for dumping 2 Proponyl Alchohol down the phreatic water suface of mother earth.


    So if you were Holley, knowing in 1979 that Ford wasn't going to be making spread bore Motorcrafts, and that ACF was gonna not be making Carter carbs anymore, you'd freeken go nuckin futts catering to any request from the Ford Engineering department, and hope to G""d they allowed you to supply carbs on tick.


    Oh, and by the way. Nice work Mike.

    We all come to see your lovely Graven Carb god Image Porn.

    The views this post is getten proves it. The Free World is being looked after by your proper, reasoned, and lucid Canuck Scientific Escapade, and I cannot speek highly enough man!

  13. #88

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    Butta bing, Chandler Bing, indeed, and thank you kindly

    Addressing the STUPID rich (too long) secondary transition/transfer slots, with back-asswards cart-before-the-horse half-assed compensated for by the too-big (but obviously not big (lean) enough) original 0.044" secondary idle air bleeds... again I say, it's not surprising after mapping this thing all out, the gross amount of more soot that was within the secondary throats and bores prior to cleaning this turkey all up... lol

    "They" took the time to machine proper, most ways appropriately sized width and length primary transfer slots (transfer slots constitute the final air:fuel restriction as to what the engine gets to ingest upon transitioning with throttle opening) for these (I would actually love to see the process used to create them, being that they are machined the way that they are... see below...)... again, with the ONLY issue in "their" brains obviously being whatever cow-towing they had to do for gubberment functional aspect emissions regulations...




    The secondary transfer slots are another story altogether... no time taken logically whatsoever... simply machined all the way to the top as usual like other Holley carburetors are... the problem being that these carburetors have a MUCH thicker base plate, upwards... they machined them traditionally, from vertical location for the secondary throttle plates... making their existence, specifically their much increased length, provide exactly 200% more area of transition air:fuel available for secondary transition... this was astronomically unnecessary, to say the least...




    Here's what we are going to do to correct that, to bring the available secondary transition air:fuel back into the realm of sane, normal, and efficient...




    ... in combination with the following calibration, that reflects remaining in a 4160 state, with a secondary metering plate...




    As I said at the very beginning, this will be ongoing. The calibration and some details will change with the conversion to 4150 style with a secondary metering block with jets.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  14. #89

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    Just found this thread. Subbing as I hope to run a modified 85 vintage carb on my future engine. I have a lot of reading to do to catch up!

  15. #90
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    I am so far behind on this thread oh man. And I'm afraid, just by looking at this page that this is going to be over my head. Yikes incredible work. I wonder how my car would run with one of these on it...
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  16. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by saleen428 View Post
    Just found this thread. Subbing as I hope to run a modified 85 vintage carb on my future engine. I have a lot of reading to do to catch up!
    Thank you. Easiest, seriously easier than the 4180 block modifications, is to adapt a regular primary metering block, say from a LIST-1850 or 80457 or etc. other same such 600cfm vacuum secondary, to the front of a 4180... but then all of the air bleeds up top of the carburetor still need to be addressed... but even that's far easier done (drilled, tapped, restrictions made from threaded socket set screws) by one's self or farmed out to somebody who can add adjustable air bleeds...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85stanggt View Post
    I am so far behind on this thread oh man. And I'm afraid, just by looking at this page that this is going to be over my head. Yikes incredible work. I wonder how my car would run with one of these on it...
    Thanks for stopping in. Fear not, and don't hesitate to ask about anything that isn't clear or can use better explanation.

    Depending on what you're running now, it certainly would not be worse.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  18. #93

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    Awesome work as ususal, Mike. Anxious to see the results.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  19. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85MUSTANGTGT View Post
    Awesome work as ususal, Mike. Anxious to see the results.
    Thanks very much, Thomas. You and me both.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  20. #95

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    I don't like the convoluted pathway (see posts further back this thread) the inside-of-the-choke-shroud primary idle air bleeds take to connect with the primary metering block, so I'm going to do the following for a straightforward, no dipping downward out and over and back pathway like Ford did... new drilled passages in grey, a straight shot and nowhere down near the float/fuel level, JUST LIKE old school metering was done...

    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 01-15-2019 at 02:05 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  21. #96

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    Sorry I haven't yet been able to get back to this, folks. I mean to shortly...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  22. #97

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    No sweat! Quality is worth the wait.
    Jim DeAngelis
    Cornucopia of Useless Knowledge
    Connoisseur of Dearborn Ferrous Oxide
    '83 GT hatch, currently under the knife
    '79 Capri 2.3L n/a, Medium Copper metallic, survivor
    (bought from MRausch82)

  23. #98

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    This situation is getting real, real soon
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  24. #99

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    Very cool! And just fyi, I will be out of commission for a bit. I should be available for dyno testing come July. Working thru a family crisis.
    Jim DeAngelis
    Cornucopia of Useless Knowledge
    Connoisseur of Dearborn Ferrous Oxide
    '83 GT hatch, currently under the knife
    '79 Capri 2.3L n/a, Medium Copper metallic, survivor
    (bought from MRausch82)

  25. #100
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Great thread, and details!

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