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  1. #1
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    Default 69 351 Windsor rebuild advice needed!

    Hello! I'm planning on building a hot street car motor that will run off pump gas. I currently have a 1969 351 Windsor block in the queue at my local machine shop and I'm looking for input on my parts list before I place any orders. The machinist at the shop said my block will need to be bored .060 over, decked and line honed. The machinist said the crank and connecting rods appear to be in good condition. He is planning on resurfacing the crank. I'm currently planning reusing the crank and rods.

    My #1 concern driving this post is the lower deck height of the 69 block. The only forged 060 pistons I was able to find have a compression height of 1.774. I'm worried the pistons are going to be above deck, is this a concern?

    Parts list so far
    pistons: SRP forged flat tops
    heads: Twistedwedge 11r 190's
    cam bearings: Durabond FP-18T coated bearings

    I still haven't decided on main bearings, cam, lifters, piston rings and push rods. Also should I reuse my mainbolts and rod bolts or should I get ARP main and rod bolts. I'm planning on getting ARP bolts for the heads. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Usually, the machine shop can give you advice on what you should do. They can advise on what pistons are available, along with clearances and compression ratio. Are you planning on running a roller cam? The reason I ask is because most people do for performance reasons. You don't have to worry about finding oil that's compatible (or running additives) and there's less chance of wiping out a cam lobe or lifter with heavy springs and high valve lift. Retrofitting an older block is expensive. You'll most likely end up using link-bar style lifters. Last I checked, a decent set runs around $500 and a cheap set is only good for ruining an expensive build. With the difference in cost, you could have found a newer roller block that has the taller deck height already set up for a roller cam ( can be cleaned up at .030 instead of .060, which leaves you with a thicker cylinder wall). I just purchased a complete 351w roller motor for $300 and another non-roller tall-deck complete motor for $100. I have another motor in the machine shop currently that is being built to 408 spec with forged crank, pistons, and aftermarket i-beams. I'll be using link-bar lifters, but I would have gone with a roller block If I hadn't already traded around for a machined block and new rotating assembly. I traded for it and ended up getting it fairly cheap.

    Sorry for the long post, but I just went through this stuff and wanted to let you know what my experience was in choosing what I did. If you're going retrofit roller, a newer block just makes sense. The extra cost of the block will most likely be offset by other parts. Hope that makes sense!
    Last edited by Broncojunkie; 03-24-2018 at 05:56 AM.

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member mmb617's Avatar
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    I've heard that the older blocks are stronger but I'd still be afraid of one that needed bored .060 over. Maybe that's because I had a motor fail due to cylinder wall breakage. It was a 393 roller block that had been bored .030 over, but after post blowup examination the builder said the core must not have been properly sonic checked and the wall was just too thin after boring. That impressed me with just how little room there is for error when overboring a block. I'd never go over .030 with a stock block of any vintage. It's not a lot of fun when several rods exit the oil pan while you're going through the traps. Thrilling yes, fun no.
    408/T5/3.73's

    We're not fast racers, we're more what's known as half fast racers.

  4. #4

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    Some of the thinking piston makers thoughtfully make them with as close to, or a "zero deck" in mind, which is a good thing. Even a few thou above the deck is fine because most head gaskets are 0.040"+ thick... David Vizard (noted engine builder, and other such folks) states that a quench distance (piston top to cylinder head deck surface, including gasket thickness) of 0.030-0.040" in a wedge combustion chamber head engine is most efficient and less prone to detonation etc...

    The early Windsor's 9.480" block deck, minus half the stroke (3.500"/2=1.75") + the rod length + piston compression height...
    The math: 9.480" - (1.750" + 5.956" + 1.774") = 0.000"

    I'm with the other fellas though, 0.060-over is questionable for continued longevity... wall thickness should be checked... and I'd ask the machinist if 0.060-over is absolutely necessary. Maybe they can get away with 4.040"?...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
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  5. #5
    FEP Super Member cb84capri's Avatar
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    I'm with the others, for .060" I would want it sonic checked before spending any money. If it has to go .060" it has probably been punched out .030" already. I remember the pictures when Mike's cylinder wall broke. I broke a cylinder wall as well, but my failure was related to a hypereutectic piston letting go. Forged pistons are a good idea. I like 2618 forgings because they can withstand more abuse than 4032. For the money you are going to spend on the connecting rods putting ARP hardware in them and having them resized, you might as well just buy a set of Scat I beam rods. They come with ARP fasteners in them. What is he going to charge you to turn the crank? It may end up being more cost effective to just buy a stroker rotating assembly. With the stock crank I'd use Clevite P series bearings. Since it sounds like you need it align honed, you should buy a set of ARP main studs and have it honed with those installed. I would also use an ARP oil pump driveshaft. I can't ever say this without having to defend it later on so I'll just do it now... If a piece of debris got caught in the oil pump, I would rather snap the roll pin in the distributor gear and shut the engine off immediately than having the engine continuing to run and consequently destroying the bottom end because Ford decided to make the factory pump driveshaft a sacrificial item.

    If it makes you feel better Broncojunkie, you are better off avoiding the roller 351w block because they can crack in cam bores from the tapped bosses for the spider tray for no rhyme or reason. A set of Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters are $400 at Fordstrokers.

    Also, because I still continue to see this a lot... Don't use a high volume oil pump. High volume oil pumps are only needed if something outside of the engine needs oil pressure fed to it (turbo, supercharger). If there is no external demand, they just rob power and put too much oil in the top of the engine.

    Do you know the history of this engine at all? I wouldn't assume the factory deck height, I suspect this isn't the first time this engine has been rebuilt.

    Cale

  6. #6
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    I've looked around a few other times over the last 6 months for a better 351 block but they seem to be pretty scarce in my area. The blocks that come up for sale in my area are usually blown with a picture of a motor sitting out in the grass for $500. None of the local junkyards have any 351's. After reading your replies I went ahead and posted again in all the local groups to see if I can shake another 351 block out of a tree.

    My local machine shop is a one man operation and didn't give me any recommendations about what I should do for pistons. The block was previously 030 when I got it and it had oem style dished pistons and the original heads on it. The bore is already worn to beyond 040 at the top of the cylinder, the motor looks like it was driven until the blow by from the rings was so low that it didn't run anymore. There was a LOT of carbon build up in some of the cylinders when i tore it down, however nothing was broken and none of the bearings were spun. When I asked him about the block needing to be bored 060 over and the 69 deck height he said he never had any issues he seemed pretty confident, however the deck height does worry me.

    The rods are the "football" rods that have a football shaped rod bolt end. Do you think these would be ok to reuse or should I look into buying another set of rods?

    He is going to charge me 60$ to refinish the crank. I did as much research as I could about stroker kits in factory blocks and came to the conclusion that long term reliability wasn't there strong suit. I figured if I wanted to go to a boosted setup or get a 408 stroker kit I should just budget in a dart block.

    I was planning to use link bars and a roller cam.

    Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it.

  7. #7
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    All depends on budget and power levels you will be shooting for.. If you're going with a set of factory iron heads, a mild cam etc, then the stock rods, bolts etc will suffice. If you're bolting some nice heads and a healthy cam in it, by all means spend a few hundred and stud the bottom and upgrade the rod bolts, as possibly the rods (SCAT 5140 I-beams are only a few hundred dollars). FWIW, I ran a 71 Mexican 302 at .060", made 576 rwhp and didn't make a hiccup. Sonic testing it is a good idea regardless.
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic9925-060

    About 10:1 compression with a 61cc head, EASILY pump gas compatible.
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  9. #9
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    Are Icon forged pistons good? I've heard bad things about Keith Black products.

  10. #10
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    Yes. They're used a lot in the 2.3 turbo applications. Pretty decent pistons. What's your power goals with this thing?
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  11. #11
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    I don't really have a power goal in mind. I'm looking to pull as much reliable/streetable power out of this setup as I can though.

  12. #12

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    I used these gaskets on my 393 build in a 1969 block.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...view/make/ford

    They are .0595" thick. Pistons .020" out of the hole, leaves .0395" for quench. Works just fine.

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  13. #13
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    This is good to hear!

  14. #14
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    It's almost a year later, I can't believe how quickly time goes by! I'm finishing my shopping list of parts before I start assembling the engine and I was looking for a few more recommendations. I had the crank reground and decided to get a new set of Eagle I beam rods and I need to get a new harmonic balancer so the machine shop can balance everything for me. Do you guys have any recommendations for a harmonic balancers?

    I still need to order a set of roller rockers, for the 11R heads is there any reason why I shouldn't just order a set of scorpion or TFS 1.6 roller rockers? I noticed they have "regular" and "offset" I googled for a while and couldn't figure out what the difference was.

  15. #15

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    Good to hear it’s all coming together for you, sometimes these projects take time. I wouldnt worry on the 0.060 over, I’m running three of them right now with no problems. As far as the offset rockers, I would check with the 11r heads you are running. Sometimes they move the pushrod hole over just a little to straighten out the intake port, and to do this without the pushrod rubbing on the head they offset the rocker arm for clearance. I would just research the head, and you will get your answer. Unless somebody here is using the same head. Good luck

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    After looking into Eagle vs Scat on rotating assemblies I chose Scat for mine. There were reports of the Eagle gear distorting shape and allowing bearings to let go. Also with rod bolts breaking and allowing them to throw.

    Stuff can happen with any combo for sure. I almost didn’t even post it up because a person wants to be confident in what they build. I mention it so you can evaluate what you have and what you see and determine your path forward.

    Its easier and cheaper before it blows parts out the bottom or side, etc.

    The main deciding factor in what force they need to hold is piston/ring/rod weight and stroke and RPM as that defines the forces in play

  17. #17
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    I went over the debate on the scat vs eagle rods and asked the machine shop about it. My machinist told me he has used both eagle and scat rods when building oval track motors that see 7500 rpm for extended periods of time and said both were a great product. If I have any trouble with my eagle rods I will let you know.

  18. #18

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    JMAC?

    did you have the block decked? When I did my 69 and had it decked it came out to 9.462. I stuck with 3.5 stroke and 5.95 rods.

  19. #19
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    Yes the block has been decked. I ordered my pistons an extra .020 shorter on the compression height to compensate for this. Once I put it together I will let you know if they stick out above the bore.

    What harmonic balancers did you guys use on your motors?

  20. #20
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    I'd like to see what your total cost is once you're done. I've started thinking about a 408W build with a roller block and mild aluminum heads. Most long-block crate engines are about 450hp and ~$7,000. I haven't put together a build list with prices to compare each option.
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