CFI to FiTech EFI

[emerygt350]

So do you think sending the TPS signal from a holley or fitech would be enough to keep the TFI system running like it should (as mentioned above)?\

[xctasy]

So do you think sending the TPS signal from a holley or fitech would be enough to keep the TFI system running like it should (as mentioned above)?\

Nope, it needs something else

to get you thru this

semi charmed kind life...

TFi can work with Mega Jolt; no CPS needed. It just needs a little reworking

SPARKout to TFi is via a MegaJolt 10x10 graph which references MAP and RPM.

Pretty much the same as the Fuel and Spark MegaSquirt 2 from Page 61


http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megas...ing_Up-3.3.pdf


https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.


I'd go EDIS8; its way better, and the whole system is integrated.


To make the TFi work would require a work around to function, but everything is there to do it.


Talk to forum member MrRiggs.

This is not an add or sale, its just advice


You'll be able to do it.

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/tfi.htm

The circuit board is done.



Notice all the header pins scattered around the board. Those are the wire-wrap points that will tie to the 60-pin connector.

Programmable Digital Ignition

You've probably seen various programmable digital ignitions ranging from $400 to $600+. Would you believe there is a digital ignition control that is easy to program (No complicated charts or maps) and comes with; a user friendly hand-held programmer, dual calibrations so you can have one setup for street and one for strip and can switch between the two quickly and easily, 4 switchable rev limiters, a high speed rev limiter, 4 rpm switches, an automatic start retard, 4 switchable retards, and a high speed retard, all for under $150. What's the catch? Well, you have to build it yourself.

I can't afford to buy a digital ignition so I designed my own. It uses a 50Mhz microcontroller. Because the microcontroller is so fast it is extremely accurate and can handle many functions with very few additional parts. This means it can be built simply and inexpensively. Its not that complicated but it's not a beginner project either. If you don't have experience building electronics then don't try building your own. I originally designed this to control a Ford TFI distributor but have since upgraded it with its own coil driver so an external ignition module is not needed. It can be triggered by any type of distributor or crank trigger and will work on 4, 6 ,or 8 cylinder engines. It can also trigger any ignition module with a breaker point input.
I put together a parts list to go along with the schematic. I don't have any layout diagrams or anything so you will have to figure out your own circuit boards and enclosures.
There is nothing to the hand-held programmer. The screen is a Seiko 16x1 backlit LCD #L1671B1J. Other screens may work but this is the only one I can guarantee. The hand-held programmer is hooked to the ECU with a six lead connector. I use a 6-pin mini-din extension cord, like you would use for a computer mouse or keyboard. The four buttons are SPST NO momentary switches.
The control unit is fairly straight forward. The power supply has two inputs. One gets power all the time and the other gets power when the ignition key is on. There are three outputs, A is a constant 5 volts, B puts out 5 volts when the key is on, and C is 12 volts when the key is on.
The retard and rev limit inputs are labeled either + or -. The + inputs use the input circuit with the pull down resistor. Applying a positive voltage will turn the accessory on. If you don't plan to use an accessory with a + input then you can just tie the pin to ground. The - inputs use the circuit with the pull up resistor. Applying zero volts (ground) will turn the accessory on. Any unused - pins can be hooked to a 5 volt source. All of the TO220 case components should be mounted to some sort of a heat sink. I just bolted mine to the side of the aluminum enclosure. All but the voltage regulator need to be insulated so they don't ground out through the mounting flange. The input wires run to the distributor or crank trigger need to be shielded to prevent false triggering.
The IC hanging off the bottom of the input/output circuit is the relay. The relay bypasses the microcontroller and sends the input signal directly to the output. When the motor is spinning over 400 rpm the microcontroller sends out a bypass signal which switches the relay over so the output gets its signal from the chip. Everything else you need to know should be explained in the manual.
To make the whole thing work you will of course need the two microcontrollers. I sell preprogrammed chips for $30. If you don't want to build your own box you can buy a finished unit from me for $300.

You can contact me at mrriggs@gofastforless.com

The EDIS6 conversion process and EDSI8 are defined in the MegaJolt literature.

Post #19 by thesameguy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:21 pm
https://fordsix.com//viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718

This is not and add or sale, its just advice

Total cost:

Megajolt Controller, with pre-installed hard rev limiter and MAP sensor and programming cable: $200.00
EDIS-6 coil pack (Airtex part: 5C1123): $52
Bracket for coil pack (friend of a friend): $20
EDIS-6 module (Airtex part: 6H1107): $15 (@junkyard, $150+ new)
3x Spark Plug Wires (Denso part: 6716089 ): $45
Trigger wheel (Miller's Mule custom part): $120
VR Pickup (Standard Motor Products PC51): $25
Temp Sensor (Airtex part: 5S1018 ): $1 (@junkyard, $8 new)
Misc wiring (VR sensor, coil pack, EDIS module, temp sensor): $10 (junkyard, around $50 new as pigtails)

$488

I think this compares very favorably price-wise to other ignition solutions out there and offers the advantage of full programmability and temperature compensation. Time will tell how well it works, but I'm optimistic.

EDIS 8 from 1996 on wards Exploder, Mountaineer 5.0, MN12 XR7 or Tbird or SN95 Mustang or the F-Truck or E van pickups, way less than that.

[emerygt350]

Well, hopefully the CFI does well with my new engine and then I won't have to worry about any of this.

[brianj]

Nope, it needs something else

to get you thru this

semi charmed kind life...

TFi can work with Mega Jolt; no CPS needed. It just needs a little reworking

SPARKout to TFi is via a MegaJolt 10x10 graph which references MAP and RPM.

Pretty much the same as the Fuel and Spark MegaSquirt 2 from Page 61


http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megas...ing_Up-3.3.pdf


https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.


I'd go EDIS8; its way better, and the whole system is integrated.


To make the TFi work would require a work around to function, but everything is there to do it.


Talk to forum member MrRiggs.

This is not an add or sale, its just advice


You'll be able to do it.

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/tfi.htm





The EDIS6 conversion process and EDSI8 are defined in the MegaJolt literature.

Post #19 by thesameguy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:21 pm
https://fordsix.com//viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718

This is not and add or sale, its just advice



EDIS 8 from 1996 on wards Exploder, Mountaineer 5.0, MN12 XR7 or Tbird or SN95 Mustang or the F-Truck or E van pickups, way less than that.

Somehow, bolting a Duraspark into it seems just a mite bit easier, and most likely let it run with no appreciable difference. All of this is certainly good information, and good to have, but sometimes you just want your car to run well.

[gmatt]

I running my 302 swapped '80 Fairmont with the Fitech 400hp and DSII. That's the base system from Fitech, which doesn't have any timing control. The Duraspark was in the car from the factory, so, kind of a no-brainer for me. I just needed the distributor and coil. It runs great, I'm very happy.

[xctasy]

I'm pretty sure the fuel only Fitech is good. As noted, North American smarts.

Once you have gray cable connection, you have realtime, high clock speed adjustment, cheeper internals, and its the ability to manage the engine's fuel delivery and perform the same real time data logs that allow this system to work with Durasaprk ii.

TFi and EDIS8 are potentially better ignition systems with fatter spark and becasue the spark and timing of it are always in trim over the life of the vehcile. The Spout/PIP stuff is a little complicated to get a handle on, but its only doing electronically what the Crank Posiion Sensor and distibutor trigger did electrically. It eliminates internal parts, and allows the base calibration to exist by burnt on chip, or by EPROM in the case of MegaJolt.

The spark saturation comes down, and the really have had a lot of extensive development to cover off the stuff the Duraspark I, II, and III did from 1974 to 1984. Both were production systems, that have very relaible work arounds. The TFi module was not a disaster, just not well understood. The problems with all electronics are that it forced you to trust the standard test protocols. Dealers, working with that system, had to efficently follow the test processes at there expense, and warranty claimes intially expanded because EECIV used TFi and CFi, Port EFi or some kind of Feedback carb, and as my Boss at OCEP, Alan Ireland said, that ment to had to understand the whole system. He spent another 7 years servicing bought in Fords externally, and then went to Fisher and Paykel washing machines. Fords EECIV taught him (and everyone else) how to think electroncially. You either mastered it, or it handed your heiny to you for breakfast. And it certainly did so to many dealers.

My boss left Ford just after EEC IV came out. Between 1983 and 1985, things service wise became migrated heavily in Fords favour, and being a dealer and qualfied servicer became infinantly more difficult. FB71 and JACook will tell you. The systems though, were world class, and head and shoulders above anything form other countries.


I like Duraspark II. It takes a 1968 distributor, and as soon as the non AMC big cap came out, it made spark cross fire free, and everyone has vouched for its realiablity, especailly in long distance races.

The basic FoMoCo Autolite and Motorcraft parts are dead realiable. But those multi colored Strain relief DS I/II/III boxes and "white box" replacments are just like TFi modules....some are crud. The wiring changes, and the active dwell, and a whole lot of other features are not well understood.

Mrriggs HEI into Duraspark II box work around is exceptional, and only exists because some suppliers "cheaped out" on Fords quality requirements.

But the TFi to control box using a gutted out EECIV 60 pin module, thats true brilliances right there. It basically allows you to have a TFi system, and remove the other stuff.


Don't be affraid to use TFi with the old EECIV, and run FiTech as well. Don't go backwards if your car is already TFi equiped. Learn what it needs, and don't reinvent the wheel.

[emerygt350]

Fingers crossed, I am hoping to have the engine in the car in two weeks. Getting pretty impatient but don't want to rush them, all ice, snow and salt outside right now anyway.

[emerygt350]

So all I have to do is put 100# injectors in my CFI to make it go to 350 hp right ? I can only take this to mean the constriction of the venturi isn't the limiting factor for HP with my CFI...
http://www.jegs.com/p/Holley/Holley-...=20180205email

[xctasy]

So all I have to do is put 100# injectors in my CFI to make it go to 350 hp right ? I can only take this to mean the constriction of the venturi isn't the limiting factor for HP with my CFI...
http://www.jegs.com/p/Holley/Holley-...=20180205email

Correct. Two 1.375" throttle blades are ample to deliver 350 hp if the injectors are able to supply enough gasoline.

100 gph injectors are enough.

If you are talking about the pure Ford EECIV CFi and TFi system, then limit is what happens when the throttle blades gets hit by 100 gph injector spray.

A custom code change will be required to mke it run.


It'll work fine if the cylinder to cylinder air fuel mixture is correct.

The basic CFi system is very touchy, and has a lot of handshake with all the fuel pressure, which is influenced by draw down from the fuel pump(s), then the pulse widths used a for constant feed, and won't work with 100 gph injectors. ECT, EGR, TPS and O2 and other sensors. Anything out of range, and the system stalls, yields a fault code, and you have to create a solution.


When Callaway did the Twin Turbo 240 mph Corvette, it used two MicroTech upstream turbo injectors, which were really just Fords CFi injectors, and a controll box.

So there is scope to go way high on fuel delivery, and still get it to work.


The issue is that its better to get a custom reworked EECIV to do that, and MS2 would be an advantage.

2-bbl CFi has a limitation with its stock last year 1984/1985 calibration...it was designed for 165 to 180 hp, but if the right modifictions were done, it would haul 350 hp with the right calibration.

This will cost a Sailor Bob tune, and your better off with a later EECIV to calibrate, or MS2.

If its a cost verses result thing, then you need input from others who have used the Holley or Fitech.

Your money is you money. TFi might be best kept.

Somewhere you need to think if your love for the funky 2-bbl is best served by ditching TFi, and going to the 100% solution form Holley or FiTech.

I'd rather not have you spend a bean on the factory CFi if you cannot be assured that 100 gph injectors will work with EECIV. They can, but its 800 bucks to remap an EECIV to suit a 2-bbl CFi.


I'd start your new engine with CFi, and then look for other options from someone in the US who you can trust.

CFi is a backwards system from the brillinace of port EFi, but the Fitech and Holley use the CANBUS technology to get the fuel control just right. Those systems will work.

FiTech will potentially work better, it has an annular injector discharge, but its got other stuff that takes up space in the engine bay that I don't like.


Holley wanted that idle injector technology, but FiTech refused to sell it to Holley.


So the let the best system win, and support your industry.


Choices are:
EECIV or V, custom tune with stock EECIV CFi and TFi
MS2, custom tune with stock EECIV CFi and TFi
FiTech 2-bbl
Holley Sniper 2300 (A 2300 series Holley 4412 or 7448 500 or 350 cfm replacement, not a 2300 Ford 4 cylinder Carb replacement).

It's not my money. If something goes wrong, a person in New Zealand might promise all the things under the sun, but in your own neigbourhood, a neighbour near by is your best bet.


Get some US advice.

[emerygt350]

So... xctasy, I made my butterflies open all the way... did I do wrong? I checked the TPS before and after. before I bent the little tab it was 3.3ish on the resistance and after it was 3.4ish. Is my computer going to puke over that? I also checked all the plugs for variable burn and they all looked awesome with maybe 1000 miles on them, course, it was not at WOT the whole time... (I bent the tabs during the rebuild so the plugs would be all pre-bend burn).

If it came down to it, just dropping in larger injectors (not 100 maybe 80#) might be interesting before I invest in a new system though. Never know if the stock computer might just handle it. The new cam is speed density safe, the intake isnt too crazy, etc etc...

[Walking-Tall]

If I may say, no, not wrong. The Ford fuel injection throttle body with brain dead necked down venturi (a carburetor booster functioning principle, the venturi principle... therefore, most certainly is a flow/hp limiting factor) can use all the help it can get airflow-wise... and when you say resistance, do you mean volts? TPS voltage should register just under a volt at idle and then progress smoothly with no drop outs up to just under the voltage reference 5 volts at WOT. ... What's "pre-bend burn"?

The stock computer bases fueling on the injectors it thinks are installed, those being the stock lb/hr rating fuel injectors. In my knew-less experimenting days with my '86 5.0L SEFI (lo-po) Thunderbird, I swapped in a 60mm throttle body in place of the stock 58mm, and with fuel pressure adjustment, that was no issue, but it did not like some swapped in 19 lb/hr injectors in place of the 14's at all...

[xctasy]

I was hoping one of the gods of all things ford on this forum would have jumped in here but my engine is almost done so I had to make a call on the tab. I went with bending the tab. The resistance of the tfs was 3.3ish max before, and after bending so it opens all the way it is now at 3.44. I am holding out hope that it means the computer can deal with the change.

See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...90-TPS-voltage

The CFi TPS readings changed in 1982 to suit the MCU/ EECIV normal readings. As long as they are within spec, its okay. The blue printing of all parts is important. Over center throttle blades or less than spec angle certainly ruins air flow in Rochesters 2 and 4-bbl carbs. I don't know enough about the Motorcraft 2-bbl to make a judgement.

Like the emerging Wide Band EGO sensors verses older Narrow band Oxygen sensors, old O2's and TPS are set by recomended voltage at curb, not WOT or reststance unless Ford says so.


I've done a lot of work with data logging and resistance values for sensors. Ford used voltage or resistance specs. I'd use voltage, and even though a 5.0 HO Fi has no IAC, heed the 1.2 volt warning if the curb idle voltage is set too high.

[emerygt350]

Sorry, I checked this while it was off the car (the car is in one shop, the engine in another, and the CFI was in my house) so I could only do resistance. "Pre-bend burn" : I just meant the plug condition was from before I bent the tab slightly allowing complete opening of the butterfly at WOT. I didn't do anything to change the idle voltage, just perhaps its max voltage but only slightly. It really didn't take much to get it to open all the way.

Yeah, I suspect bigger injectors would cause problems. If I do end up going to an aftermarket solution I may just give it a shot to see though. They are not expensive and it might be fun. It would probably have to be running super lean for it to work at all.

[xctasy]

They most certainly were/are! I worked with two development and test engineers from Ford's PCM plant near Philadelphia. One came from Motorola, the other came from Ford's (now defunct) Aerospace division. I enjoyed talking with him about the systems and components he worked on for the original space shuttle fleet. He got to shakedown one of the systems for Enterprise and Columbia. And worked with the guy for three years, and can't remember his dang name... Dave xxx?

The latter sounds like FSP's John Ha!

http://mit.midco.net/jharcinske/250-6.html

He did a lot of the basic holders and adaptors for IIRC SkyLab experiments.

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77375

[emerygt350]

It has been interesting revisiting this thread. I wonder if the original poster ever went through with the conversion? My cfi is working flawlessly now. Will be autocrossing it next weekend. The guy that dynoed my car said he can easily tie in a tfi ignition on the Holley sniper and was trained by Holley to do so.

[MustangSammy]

So emerygt350, you're running a stock CFI tune, stock tfi ignition, stock injectors, with those heads, intake, exhaust etc, and have no problems?

[emerygt350]

Yes, I need to take it in again for another Dyno too. I found the PIP module was bad (out of the box) and since replacement I have easily picked up another 15 horsepower up top. I suspect at the wheels I am now close to 190 and maybe 240 at the flywheel. I do have a fuel to air ratio gauge in it to keep an eye on that fuel system but I have never had a lean issue.

[erratic50]

Honestly I would source an 86 V8 harness and convert to a real port EFI. Easy enough to convert the SD stuff to MAF if you want, but it’s easier to install a wide band and go to a PNP setup

SD systems actually run better and make more power when looming at the likes of Megasquirt

Just my $0.02 for what it’s worth.

otherwise you need to go to pre 1986 vacuum advance based ignition for the EFI you are looking at and it will not run like something that controls both fuel and spark

[emerygt350]

The modern Holley Sniper setups will work with TFI ignitions, when parts aren't available for my CFI I will probably move in that direction just to avoid disturbing the car too much. If it were not a mint condition gt350 I would rip it all out and put a good multiport system in it. Sadly, when that happens the compromise cam I had to put in the engine to work with the CFI will be the weak spot.