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  1. #51

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    Following.
    84 Capri RS Turbo
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  2. #52
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread to help with an 85GT brake upgrade

  3. #53
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Great post funny how I was looking into this mostly this week
    Thanks for starting this I am thinking of widening my 85 10 holes and narrowing the fronts I've seen it done on other posts but like the 04 Bullets as well and keep going back to them

    I will get the 10 holes widened to 10" inches rear and narrowed to 6" in front and upgrade to the 87/up setup
    Mc parts store says the diaphragm in th booster is 7.5. Dia vs the 93. Cobra 7.8 I do believe from what I recall
    And the sn95 booster requires much effort

    On the fence with it all I was quoted 250.00 per wheel to refurbish the finish to factory new
    Plus widening plus putting mix match tires on it (eh) or lack of good Tire options other than 300/pc for gatorbacks or drag type of compound


    We are a bit spoiled with all of the brake upgrade pkgs and options in a 17 inch wheel

    FYI My Father in laws 58 corvette has single master cylinder and 4 wheel drums and ummm manual brakes YIKES

  4. #54
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that widening your 10 holes will alter the offset/backspacing so that might actually require changes to your rear axle setup for best fitment.

    My .02 for what it's worth, the 93 Cobra booster is not worth all the extra work in most cases. I have installed it in my 79 PC and on an 86 GT. PC was a major PITA and the 86 was much easier. Either way, I don't plan on doing it again anytime soon. In most cases if your brake setup is sized properly, the stock Fox booster works just fine IMHO.

    If you aren't going 4 wheel disc, then the MM brake upgrade for the 87-93 cars is a great addition to most Foxes. 4 wheel disc have benefits too, but once again unless you start altering your weight balance of the car and your suspension the front brakes do @ 70% of the braking on most Foxes. So in many cases the rear drums are just fine for the average street car. The 87-93 V8 brakes up front with quality pads and rotors can make a huge difference too. For many that is more than enough brake for what the car is intended. Now if you are road racing, autocrossing, high speed runs, or HPDE, then better brakes all the way around are in order again IMHO. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
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    1981 Capri Roller
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  5. #55
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Thanks for info

    In regards to offsets this is the very thing (stopping me ) no pun intended
    The wheels and stance has to be right to warrant the swap (to me) I am willing to cut my axle down 1-1/2 on one end and 3/4 on the other if neeed to make it look square under the car and quarter panel lip

    If you look close most swaps tires roll outside of the fender and stick in the other side
    I know about the wheel spacers and would obviously try to make a custom thickness one before cutting axle to whatever dimension if needed but my axle is now built and stout ready for power and stuck in between thoughts
    It's Ponies,10 holes,or new knock offs of some sort ??? It's now a shiny black 85 gt stock appearing at the moment (couldn't be happier on how it turned out)
    It was going to go BBF 466 ci and mission aborted

    Great post Erratic and info everyone .I do have the 87/93 setup near ready to go in and the car is NOW near completely stock and back together minus few hidden mods

    I think you made up my mind with above thanks Trey well stated

  6. #56
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Posting an example of a 4 lug rear disc conversion.

    I brought my Racecraft suspension equipped 85 and a big pile of parts down to Trey for a rebuild in February 2018. The crusty old high miles 8.8 I took out of my 86GT was blasted and powder coated and fitted with new everything as Trey installed the 4 lug rear disc kit from North Race Cars. The car was prepped with battle boxes before he hung the 8.8 from the MM control arms and Koniís and installed a MM panhard bar ó you know ó for good measure.

    Iíll probably mostly putt around in this old pony when itís done. Itís getting to where it may become a bit too nice to drive it like I stole it. Iíll have to see how I feel about putting miles on it when itís done I guess.
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    Last edited by erratic50; 05-26-2019 at 06:40 PM.

  7. #57
    FEP Power Member Jerry peachuer's Avatar
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    Very nice

  8. #58
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    Bumping this thread and also requesting it to be stickied, as I feel it is just as important to have this knowledge available as it is the 5lug swap info.

    I am redoing my current girlfriends '78 Fairmont Futura, and while we are working toward the 5lug swap, this info has been invaluable should we stay 4lug.
    " If you're not living life on the edge, that means you're taking up too much room."
    1979 Mustang Indy Pace 2.3T/4spd (sold on 1/10/16)
    1983 GLX vert 3.8/auto (triple black, sold on 10/8/13)
    1984 (early) Turbo GT (parts SLOWLY coming together)
    1985 Coupe 4.6L DOHC/IRS swapped (sold 9/10/17)
    1986 GT TTop 5spd (sold as of 10/8/13)
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  9. #59
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I really wish there were a 4 lug flange/hub and rotors for an SN95 spindle. They are a superior bearing and brake tech

    The rear brakes used on the SNís are better also if there were 4 lug rotors available and a bushing to shim the rotor hub to the axle

    It took a lot of time to put this together as info is very scarce. I agree it should be sticky and I thank all who have helped contribute to it.
    Last edited by erratic50; 03-23-2019 at 10:00 PM.

  10. #60

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    Iíve been looking in to re drilling sn95 rotors to 4 lug. From talking to some friend who have re drilled axles it may or may not work.
    I have a spare rearend so when I get all the parts together Iíll find out if it works.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #61
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The problem with redrillingis that some of the holes intersect. It would be better if you had a part that was never drilled in the first place

    Willwood makes just such a part BTW

    when I get around to redoing my 1986GT I am seriously considering a switch back to 10 holes. In order to do that they would have to be altered for 5 lug because I am not giving up my bad-ass brakes after they saved my life ó literally

    I like the 17Ē tribar rims on a Four Eyed car. Always planned to do them up like a 93 Cobra R until LMR released the kit ó now Iím not sure.

    some days I really miss the way it appeared after a high dollar base/clear repaint I helped do in summer of 1993 after it had gotten hailed on. II didnít follow the rules ó everything on my car went black base/clear. I know that bugs some purists but I went through a lot of hours of labor prepping charcoal parts and personally have always loved the result. Itís one of those things that made my 86 mine I guess.

    These days my sonís 1986GT Convertible rolls on my 10 holes. Imo the look timeless and great on a nicely restored classic 86. He still wants to undo the satin black trim treatment the previous owner did to it. All in good time
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    Last edited by erratic50; 03-24-2019 at 11:50 AM.

  12. #62
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Reportedly there is an off the shelf Toyota 4 lug rotor that fits the 4 lug wheel pattern and the 4 lug rear axles and works with the SN95 rear brake caliper setup and “5 lug / SN95” North Racecar brackets

    Havent found any additional details

  13. #63

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    I'm still surprised we haven't seen 5 lug 10 hole rims somewhere like LMR. I might be a minority here, but the only reason I want to stay 4 lug is for 10 holes.
    Triple black '86 GT Convertible 5.0/5spd (T5Z, hurst short throw, VM-1, 93 leather, all black tmi door panels, 93 cobra wing, strut tower brace, sub-frame connectors, 13.5 degrees base timing).

  14. #64
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I agree — a 5 lug 10 hole would save a lot of hassle. Upgrade what you want and keep it hidden

    Once the cap is on, it would take a very trained eye to recognize all of the changes.

  15. #65
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    While I haven’t looked at any disc dimensions it is worth noting that the foxbody 4 lug pattern is shared in common with Focus and many euro fords.

    Given the cost of the old school 87-88 Tbird/93 Cobra based rear disc conversion it would be GREAT to find a disc that will work with fox 4 lug axles and SN95 brake adapters and SN95 calipers.

  16. #66

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    Hi,
    I am acquiring a stock/clean/unmolested 1978 Z7 Zephyr (302, auto) to use as a daily driver. I want to improve, under a tight budget, its suspension and brakes. For the suspension I'll do new springs/struts/shocks (stock height- NO lowering), new poly bushings on front suspension, MM ball joints.

    I just read with a lot of interest this sticky thread on braking option for 4-lugs, and want to use 10 hole 15' wheels with 87-93 spindles-rotors-bearings-calipers and the MM brake upgrade kit.

    The questions I
    have is, can I keep the stock master cylinder that came in this V8-powered 1978 Zephyr? And the second, for the front struts, could I elongate the holes on new '79-'86 struts for use on 87-93 spindles, or I have to get '87-'93 struts?

    Thanks a lot,

    Raul


  17. #67
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    If you shop for a stock replacement you can verify the master cyl part details on the Zephyr. AFAIK they are 7/8Ē but thatís based upon what all the other front disc rear drum foxbody setups Ive worked on are

    The 87-93 V8 spindles are thinner in the strut mounting area than the typical four eyed fox spindle

    Elongating the bolt holes is only necessary in one off situations afaik.

    One place it was observed was when fitting SVO/Continental spindles to an 85 mustang paired with vintage Saleen struts. In that application one hole had to be slightly tweaked. Strut spacers were needed becausethe SVO spindle is also thin like the 87-93V8 is.

    Btw ó The 84-86 SVO / 82-83 Continental spindle uses a balljoint that is long ago discontinued and really just isnít available. Maximum Motorsports makes an adapter that goes from SN95 balljoints to this spindle. Thatís what was used on my 85 build


    The 87-93 V8 spindle and the four eyed fox spindle both use a 60MM piston in the caliper. You can try it with the stock master cyl.

    If you decide you want a more firm brake pedal feel, you may want to go up in master cyl bore diameter.

    AFAIK the 73 Torino master cylinder is a direct bolt-in for your car just like it is on the 79+ Mustang. That gets you to a 1Ē bore.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    If you shop for a stock replacement you can verify the master cyl part details on the Zephyr. AFAIK they are 7/8Ē but thatís based upon what all the other front disc rear drum foxbody setups Ive worked on are

    The 87-93 V8 spindles are thinner in the strut mounting area than the typical four eyed fox spindle
    ......... Strut spacers were needed because the SVO spindle is also thin like the 87-93V8 is.

    .......

    The 87-93 V8 spindle and the four eyed fox spindle both use a 60MM piston in the caliper. You can try it with the stock master cyl.

    If you decide you want a more firm brake pedal feel, you may want to go up in master cyl bore diameter.

    AFAIK the 73 Torino master cylinder is a direct bolt-in for your car just like it is on the 79+ Mustang. That gets you to a 1Ē bore.
    Thank you for these information. I'll let you all know how it goes with my brake upgrades. Regarding the strut spacers, can these be purchased somewhere, I do I have to fabricate them? In steel, or would aluminum work?

    Thanks again,
    Raul

    PS. Regarding the suspension, I would love to follow your advice on trying to replicate the 93 Cobra setup (including the 1.125" front swaybar and 4 cylinder rear springs, with a good set of struts/schoks).

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    AFAIK the 73 Torino master cylinder is a direct bolt-in for your car just like it is on the 79+ Mustang. That gets you to a 1Ē bore.
    I just checked on the specs for the 1972-1976 Torino/Grand Torino MC (Autozone Part#: M185. They do have the 1" bore, but the outlet thread sizes seem to be "flipped" (Primary Outlet 7/16"-24 and Secondary Outlet 1/2"-20) compared to the 1978 Zephyr/Fairmont/Mustang (7/8" bore, with Primary Outlet thread of 1/2"x20 and Secondary Outlet thread of 7/16"x24, from a Raybestos MC 39037, described in RockAuto). I suspect there is an error in one of the two descriptions, and as mentioned by erratic50, the Torino MC is a direct MC upgrade (from 7/8 to 1" bore diameter).

    I'll check the specs on the other MC you mention you have used (Lincoln Continental M1858 MC).

    Raul
    Last edited by chivaceae; 05-28-2019 at 12:38 AM. Reason: updated information

  20. #70
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Interesting - Torino is a bolt on for the Mustangs adapters should work

    best source for spacers is strut kit designed for both the thicker spindle and thinner ones.

    Reportedly another other option is cutting the ears off old struts. Just make sure the overall slot size ends up appropriate for the spindle being used. It should slide in snug and become very solid once torqued down

  21. #71

    Default Master Cylinders in 4-lug Fox cars

    OK, I did some more research on the Master Cylinders for Fox cars with 4 lug wheels (using mostly info from Rockauto.com and CarId.com), and this is what I found:

    1978-81 Fairmont/Zephyr (same as Mustang 1979-1981)
    Bore size: 7/8Ē
    Primary Outlet Size: 1/2"x20
    Secondary Outlet Size: 7/16"x24

    Grand Torino 1972-1976 (AutoZone Part#: M1858 ) [appears to be a direct fit into 79-81 Mustangs & 78-81 Fairmont/Zephyr, but the outlet thread sizes seem to be switched.... this MC needs to be compared side by side with a stock Fox 78-81 MC)
    Bore size: 1Ē
    Primary Outlet Size: 7/16"x24
    Secondary Outlet Size: 1/2"x20

    1982-83 Fairmont/Zephyr AND Mustang 1982-1986)
    Bore size: 0.827Ē (less than 7/8Ē)
    Primary Outlet Size: 9/16Ēx18
    Secondary Outlet Size: 1/2"x20

    1982-89 Lincoln Continental
    Bore size: 1.125Ē
    Primary Outlet Size: 9/16"x18
    Secondary Outlet Size: 7/16"x24 (adaptor to ĹĒx20 needed for use in 82-86 Mustangs & 82-83 Fairmont/Zephyr)

    1987-1993 Ford Mustang GT/LX
    Bore size: 21mm (~0.827Ē)
    Primary Outlet Size: M10x1
    Secondary Outlet Size: M12X1

    This information might need to be updated later on as I dig more into it.
    Raul
    Last edited by chivaceae; 02-07-2020 at 06:10 AM.

  22. #72
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivaceae View Post
    1987-1993 Ford Mustang GT/LX
    Bore size: 0.944”
    Primary Outlet Size: M10x1
    Secondary Outlet Size: M12X1
    I question the Bore Diameter listed. Everything I have seen in regards to the 87-93 GT/LX Master Cylinder has always shown a Bore Diameter of 21mm with is 0.826772" not 0.944"
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
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    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
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  23. #73
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Well - M1858 is 1Ē bore and both fittings are the same size as the smaller of the two on the 85-86. Canít for sure speak for other years but these two years are based upon experience

    did my 86 myself
    Trey worked on my 85 with the parts I sourced ...

    Both have an M1858

    There is supposed to be a direct fit Torino part number that works up until the lines went metric.
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    Last edited by erratic50; 05-28-2019 at 06:16 PM.

  24. #74
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    With the '86 I am restoring, I have the option of moving it over to 87-93 LX brakes. M/C, front LCA, spindles, calipers, flexible front lines, and rear drum assemblies on the 7.5".

    What I can gather out of the whole thread is:
    - switching the MC will be a little better, but require adaptors at the MC to '86 lines
    - will most likely need spacers on the strut to spindle connection points, maybe oblong holes on spindle

    Unsure of:
    - will the v8 LCA be worth the trouble to change, and will the fit (I assume so)
    - any other adaptors needed

    What do y'all think? Switch or not?
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  25. #75
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    MC sidebar...... Bigger bore master cyl would give you less pedal travel which is beneficial to a point. It gives you more room to stomp the pedal down for more pressure at the brake calipers in hard stop situations and it makes it require more effort to actually lock the brakes up.

    Go too far on size increase and you'll feel very little pedal travel where there is a ton of brake boost when your brakes go active. I'd describe it as a lot of "over boost" on your brakes. For example, an SVO MC on my friend's 86 combined with 2003-2004 Cobra front brakes and SN95 rear brakes is miserably touchy. Put you right through the windshield without warning.

    Spacers -- if you go to 87-93 V8 spindles you will need spacers at the strut as most replacement struts are made for either 87-93 4cyl or 87-93 V8. 87-93 spindles are a popular upgrade because of the brake diameter increase helps you stop faster.

    V8 lower control arms sidebar.... Depending upon the year of 87-93 this can be a crap-shoot. The mid 92's and 93's had low friction balljoints from the factory but some have already had one replacement due to age related stuff. When it comes to replacements NONE of the available foxbody specific balljoints are low friction and the low friction haven't been available for many years.

    The other problem is the way control arm bushing are supposed to work vs the way replacement bushings end up working out usually. Personally I would not horse around with rebuilding the control arms. Too time consuming, results vary.

    Dorman and many others make a quality replacement lower control arm. Get a pair of reproduction 87-93 and get a pair of SN95 balljoints.

    Not sure what you are working on this time around but I seem to remember you playing with some wide body stuff. Guys after more track width for some reason might want SN95 control arms. They are a little longer. It will result in a lower ride height with the same stock style spring because of the additional leverage the load gets vs the spring by making its lever longer. Nets the same with coilover because the force is applied directly.

    Generally a four eyed fox with SN95 control arm would end up less track width than an SN95. this is both because the K member of the early fox is narrower, and also because the SN95 spindles are wider.

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