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  1. #1

    Default What they don't tell you is dangerous

    I've been shopping for a brake caliper and pad and rotor upgrade for my 85 Saleen clone build. I'm reading product descriptions and reviews and this time I just had to give a shout out to my FEP friends based upon what I'm seeing!

    example -

    https://lmr.com/item/SVE-2320SVO/198...CABEgJ6ePD_BwE

    There are many other similarly constructed upgrade kits.

    the problem is they don't tell you that you also need the SVO 1 1/8" bore master cyl and an adjustable brake proportioning valve and matching rear SVO brakes to safely run those 73mm calipers!

    check out the comments about the product. No kidding more pedal movement is needed! Get used to it?! That's insane.


    Anyway..... I'm looking at going with SVO spindles to correct Ackerman and staying 4 lug on my 85. I'm shopping for calipers and pads that will work well with a 4 lug 87 tbird/93 cobra rear 4 lug brake setup.... adapter plates and the rear brake setup

    Great brakes that are 4 lug is the end goal.

    Anyway - I just had to give a shout out and state my observations. If anyone knows of parts I should consider let me know.

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Here's a complete kit for you in 4 lug if you want to go that route. Even includes the M/C although it doesn't state the size. I believe the calipers are the T-Bird 45mm single piston units.

    http://ssbrakes.com/i-10093936-reard...s-a112-93.html

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    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  3. #3
    FEP Senior Member dagenham's Avatar
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    I wonder if the svo calipers are remanufactured using the original style pistons or if they are changed over to stainless steel. I bet napa or whoever can get a pair of calipers and hawk pads cheaper than that.

  4. #4
    FEP Member Patrick Olsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    https://lmr.com/item/SVE-2320SVO/198...CABEgJ6ePD_BwE

    the problem is they don't tell you that you also need the SVO 1 1/8" bore master cyl and an adjustable brake proportioning valve and matching rear SVO brakes to safely run those 73mm calipers!
    Seems like quite a stretch to call that caliper setup "dangerous", or to say that you need to completely revamp everything else in the brake system to run them safely. Empirical evidence (in the form of the Lord-knows-how-many Mustangs have had 73mm calipers installed over the last 20+ years) indicates that they work just fine. Is it the optimum setup? No. But it is dangerous? No.

  5. #5

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    I have been running the M-2300-C disc brake kit (tbird) with 11" front brakes and 73mm calipers for over 20 years without problems. I believe the master cylinder in the kit is 15/16 bore. (D9AZ-2140-A). I even ran it on a road course a few times without problems.

    My front calipers are Raybestos by the way and they have steel pistons. I have a few more sets at home and can check the part #if anyone wants it.
    Mike
    85 GT - owned since 87

  6. #6

    Default

    Auto parts store stock 93 v8 calipers and a 1” bore master is what you need. Rockauto.com
    84 LX Vert. 5.0 5speed canyon red on white
    99 cobra, electric green on medium parchment, vortech s-trim

  7. #7

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    http://forums.corral.net/forums/5297690-post43.html

    http://forums.corral.net/forums/5300668-post49.html

    Installing 73mm front calipers on a Mustang, without the correct rear brake setup, increases the stopping distance by about 15' from 60mph. Other than reducing the possibility of bending the pads in the caliper, there is zero performance benefit. Call it what you want, but I certainly can't think of anything positive to say about it.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  8. #8

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    Thanks for the post Jack!

    good kit info Trey!

    +1 on the above. Increased stopping distance by 15' is exactly what I meant by dangerous. Stock brakes sucked to begin with, then you buy "upgrade" parts that make it even worse!

    I know I'll have to spend quite a bit to get a 4 lug setup that's anywhere near an SN95 setup that's dialed in. My plan on my Saleen clone is to correct Ackerman with SVO/Lincoln spindles then track down the parts to improve brakes while staying 4 lug m. All this so the car is fun to drive and my rare 16x8 mesh wheels fit.

    I mainly like the feel of the steering once Ackerman is correct. I doubt it will add much by way of performance. Then again this Saleen clone will be far more likely to turn into a parking spot than a bend on a road course ..... so in that context it makes sense.
    Last edited by erratic50; 01-20-2018 at 02:39 AM.

  9. #9
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    I completely understand the desire for rear disc brakes. I personally prefer working on them over drums and you get that better looking "Bling" thru the wheels.

    With that said, you won't enjoy much "Bling" due to your wheel choice of the Enkei/ARE mesh wheels just like I intend on running on my 82 RS. I know that is not your only reason for the disc brake upgrade, but let me finish first.

    Any improvement in braking is a good thing in my book, so I am right there with you on the rear disc upgrade. Due to the scarcity of options in 4 lug your costs go up compared to maybe a J/Y SN95 setup. The question is how much does a rear disc setup really improve the brakes, will you really notice that improvement in most driving situations, and ultimately is it worth the costs.

    All of those are questions you have to answer and you may still decide that you WANT rear disc no matter what and that is fine. Same basic reason I am trying to fit a 5.4 DOHC into a 82 GT!

    You might seriously consider going this route instead. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Hi...9-93-P665.aspx

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    A much cheaper option, a bolt on, doesn't affect track width or require any additional parts, etc. No maybe not as cool as rear disc and probably doesn't have the absolute same braking performance, but again for the average street car/cruiser should work just fine. This is what I have decided to do with my 82 RS since the price is right, saves me a ton of time, $$, and modifications, and ultimately my RS is not going to be a track car, but a nice fun driver/local show car at best. My plan is to actually buy the complete brake upgrade kit since I will be upgrading the front brakes to the 87-93 V8 setup so this is the best option for my RS. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Br...7-93-P676.aspx

    Again if rear discs are a MUST HAVE I completely understand, but if nothing else this is a good alternative until you find or build the setup you want. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  10. #10
    FEP Senior Member OX1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
    Seems like quite a stretch to call that caliper setup "dangerous", or to say that you need to completely revamp everything else in the brake system to run them safely. Empirical evidence (in the form of the Lord-knows-how-many Mustangs have had 73mm calipers installed over the last 20+ years) indicates that they work just fine. Is it the optimum setup? No. But it is dangerous? No.
    Agree. It is only dangerous if

    A. You are modifying your braking system from stock
    B. You haven't taken even 10 minutes to read basic articles on upgrading brakes.

    Yes, larger calipers will almost always give you more pedal travel (and mushier pedal),
    if you don't modify the MC to match. Even then, the booster may not be up to the task,
    making the pedal "feel" much stiffer (after larger calipers and matching MC).

    Even when you do everything right, sometimes it doesn't work out.

    I have orig FMS rear disk on my Capri with 87+ front brakes and SVO MC.
    Works very well.

    Put Mk VII F + R brakes on my dads LTD with SVO MC. So pretty
    much the same braking system as Capri, but the pedal was "hard" and
    hence brakes horrible (even after two new boosters). Ended up going
    Cobra HB to "fix" it.
    Last edited by OX1; 01-20-2018 at 10:41 AM.
    86 Capri, 5.0, 5Spd, A9L QH/BE, 47 lb Inj PMAS 3" MAF, Single T44 Turbo, Front Mount IC, TW170,
    Stock Cam, Explr Intake/TB, 1.7 Rockers, CF dual friction clutch, 3" DP, 2.5" full Exh, 3.27, 11.932 @ 115.78
    84 LTD, 331-10:1, TW170/Exprl Intake, 47 lbs inj/80 mm LMAF, Full Duals, Quarterhorse, Vortech 7PSI, Lentech AOD, 5 lug Mk VII brakes/rear, Eibach Sway bars, Cobra HB (dads ride, but I fix it )

  11. #11
    FEP Senior Member cb650's Avatar
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    not to hijack but can you get a 10" rear drum 4 lug off something?

  12. #12
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb650 View Post
    not to hijack but can you get a 10" rear drum 4 lug off something?
    To do a 10" rear drum conversion you will need the drums and the backing plates. Getting a replacement drum is the easy part.

    Not sure how much of an improvement the 10" rear drums can make, but I suppose it's an option.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
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  13. #13
    FEP Senior Member qikgts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb650 View Post
    not to hijack but can you get a 10" rear drum 4 lug off something?
    Mr. Cook has brought this up before... He has recommended 10" Fairmont wagon rear drums with Porterfield R4S shoes.

    I also saw that Turbocoupe rear drums are 10" as well.
    '85 GT

    The other one... 2016 F-150 XLT Supercab Ecoboosted with 3.73's...

  14. #14

    Default

    Going from 9" to 10" drums will only have a 10% effect on brake bias. It is a tiny amount of the problem that 73mm calipers create.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  15. #15

    Default

    I've had cars with 10" drums. I couldn't tell the difference until I took the wheel off and looked.

    83-86 turbo coupes, 87-88 xr7 and other 83-88 thirds/cougar with the hd towing option. Had one on a base model stripped v-6 with 10" factory drums.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  16. #16

    Default

    If one was to revert back to 60mm callipers from 73mm and still retain the adjustable proportional valve, 1 1/8" MC and stock 9" brakes, what effect would it have?
    84 Cougar, 88 HO with 700DP, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1.7 RRs, shorty's and SS exh, T-5, KC clutch, Hurst pro billet, line loc, 8.8, 4.10s, suspension mods....blah, blah,blah.

    71 Comet, 289, Liberty TL, 9", 6.00s, 11.9x @ 112.... blah, blah, blah.

  17. #17
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickshift View Post
    If one was to revert back to 60mm callipers from 73mm and still retain the adjustable proportional valve, 1 1/8" MC and stock 9" brakes, what effect would it have?
    Since the 1 1/8" M/C moves such a large volume of fluid, the pedal would most likely be very stiff with very little travel. In many ways the pedal would almost feel like there was no power assist.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Awaiting Restoration
    1984 SVO Restoration in Progress
    1986 GT Wrecked by PO, but still want to save!

    Current Capris:
    1982 Capri Roller
    1984 Capri Returned to Bubble Back Glory
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts
    1982 Capri RS 5.0 4spd T-tops

  18. #18

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    What Trey said.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  19. #19

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    In light of All the threads on the 73mm conversions, the 60mm is still the way to go with good pads if still running stock 9" drums?
    84 Cougar, 88 HO with 700DP, Edelbrock RPM intake, 1.7 RRs, shorty's and SS exh, T-5, KC clutch, Hurst pro billet, line loc, 8.8, 4.10s, suspension mods....blah, blah,blah.

    71 Comet, 289, Liberty TL, 9", 6.00s, 11.9x @ 112.... blah, blah, blah.

  20. #20

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    I've gotta point out one big positive - the kit Trey mentioned makes an 87-93 drum/disc setup stop a fox well short of the 93 cobra with 4 wheel discs.

    https://oldcarmemories.com/1993-ford...to-a-long-run/ shows 144 feet for the Cobra. 79-86 cars and 87-93 cars were both even worse from factory

    A well layed out and tuned pad upgraded system beats the pants off all factory.

    Trey has mentioned SN95 parts for their speriority and price many times. I agree, the parts are cheaper and way better generally than what's offered in 4 lug parts. An aggressively setup sn95 based system like the one on my 86 has several advantages over the stock 86 or even 87+ style parts. It is the clear winner if it weren't for being 5 lug.

    I consistently produce sub-100 foot stops from 60 - something that totally saved my bacon by mere inches last year. If I'm in my Mustang and someone is following me they better watch it. 16 MKX or inlaw's Z06 are at the mercy of me letting off the brakes if slam on the brakes in my Mustang and they are following me. they would will hit it -- hard.

    In general the disc brake setups do definately carry advantages and those advantages do only increase as speeds increase. I know for a fact I can stop from 80 shorter than I could stop from 60 before as that was my goal and I measured the before/after as I took steps on the SN95 swap on my 86.

    I initially went to 5 lug the cheater way with ranger rotors on my 86. I used stock style carbon fiber 86 pads and stock calipers in front with a 95 SN95 rear with only upgrade pads. It was done with the intention of make it 5 lug because my tires were shot and I had a full set of 17's on 5 lug rims. Get it done and drive it away from my buddy's shop hastily was the mode of operation. Even with stock master cyl and proportioning valve it was a marginal improvement over the fully stock 86 setup. Just throwing discs on the rear is not even close to better than the MM kit though.

    The MM kit is definitely great performance vs $$$ value given the performance advantage over stock!

    The best part for someone with a 79-86 that wants to keep theirs stock appearing is how difficult it would be to tell.

    Or go with the rear shoes and get carbon fiber front pads for the 79-86 style brakes. Then it's nearly impossible to detect it's there until you drive it.

    Anyway - back to my search for cost vs value/improvement on a 4 lug brakes. The MM kit just might be what I add to my parts hord in the end.

  21. #21
    FEP Power Member SchoolBoy's Avatar
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    I would like to add my input on this from a svo point of view. When I redid my brakes a few years back I used power slot slotted rotors up front, part store rears. The front end got Hawk HPS pads, the rears got porterfield RS4 pads. It is my opinion that I really should have used the porterfields all the way around as I feel the rear breaks working way more than the fronts. Now it is possible that the stock svo proportioning valve is toast and I will be rebuilding it shortly to eliminate this. But if I was to do it over again I'd use the RS4's all the way around, as a bonus they create less dust to.
    If you blink at the end of the straight away you'll miss the twisties and what fun would that be!
    1982 Capri RS 5.0L
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    1985 SVO 2A & leather.
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    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...d-Bypass-Valve
    Opperation SVO Tunes http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...51#post1148551

  22. #22

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    I can lock up all 4 tires with 10" front discs and 9" rear drums.

    The real benefit to upgraded brakes is a continual ability to stop without brake fade, this is why larger brakes are used. It also produces more leverage for the caliper.

    For the occasional panic stop, you are limited by how well you can keep the tires from locking up and the amount of rubber on the tires, not from the size of the brake rotor or drum. Larger brakes might not heat up as much, but like I said. Traction is a bigger issue then clamping force.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  23. #23

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    Truth is great brakes with terrible tires doesn't stop worth a crap.

    But if you are locking them up then the greasy rubber producing the smoke is far less effective at hauling you down than the rest of the tire that's not overheated. But not locking brakes produces heat which produces fade, cracks rotors, boils fluid, etc.

    Anyone ever had their four eyed fox wound up far enough or had enough weight behind it that when you go to stop aggressively it roasts the pads, cracks the rotors, and boils the original dot2 style fluid .... then your foot goes to the floor? I have.

    I was towing my deceased cousin's crashed 79 Grand Prix that was stacked full of repair parts and tools at the time. Unsafe? You bet! 3000 lbs of fox with around 7000 lbs behind it on an A frame draw bar and a bumper hitch. And going too fast...

    i was elected to do it because I was the only person in my family at the time with a vehicle not in the shop at the time that had enough under the hood to do the job. It was a move it before the junk man hauls it away situation with enough ground to cover that paying for a tow didn't make sense.

    Only thing that was funny about it was there still wasn't a hill on the highway that so much as forced a downshift out of 5th running with 0.68:1 and 2.73:1 and 235/60/15's at 60. Love that ol torque curve.

    Was about as brilliant as when my dad towed his broken down 1957 Chevy home from Colorado Springs with his new to him 68 Camaro. At least that was mostly a gradual down hill.

    I've got pictures of both of those towing abuses somewhere.......

  24. #24

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    Scarebird makes rear disk brake brackets that use 4 lug Thunderbird parts for your foxbody .... https://scarebird.com/index.php?rout...product_id=137

  25. #25

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