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  1. #51

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    Either I'm seeing things, lol, or your wires are already "MSD 8mm Heli-Core Solid Suppression Wire Ultra-Temp". The cores are still "suppression" material, it's just the coiled around stuff is thin solid wire of some form... Those are not solid plug wires per say, like the solid steel or copper core plug wires you can get. As well, MSD will never tell you their own wires are a no-no

    Again, good luck with it
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  2. #52
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    They are, but when I looked up my wires, they show as Solid core wires, and according to MSD, not to be used with their Ignition boxes like Digital 6, 6AL, etc. I have no idea what it affects, other than radio interference, etc., but I was actually wanting a different set of wires anyway, so I will use the opportunity to just get some spiral wound wires with 90 degree plug ends and call it a day. Hopefully the issue is just bad plugs.
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

  3. #53
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!

    Ok, lets set the record straight starting with some confessions and new results.....

    I was pretty sure that there was something related to the recent removal of the timing cover (when we were fixing the oil galley issue), that ultimately could be the source of the issue.

    First, the issue with the timing light.... its my friends, so I plead ignorance for totally being an idiot... there is a button on the handle of the light that turns the strobe on and off..... ARGHHHHHHH! Totally my fault, didn't read the buttons on the face of the timing light. When I mentioned checking it on another car, my friend did it, and he knew about the button, but somehow that little bit of info about the button didn't get communicated until tonight.

    Second, we ran through a bunch of tests today, still the same thing... everything looked perfect. After hitting the button on the timing light... we even got light at each plug. We ran compression tests, over 150psi, pulled the intake and both valve covers and watched the valves to make sure that the rocker arms were functioning as they should.... and thats when I found the issue.

    With it timed the way its been (exactly the same with both distributors, since replacing the distributor after fixing the oil galleys), number one valves were in overlap, not in compression.... so, timing was 180 degrees out. I totally dismissed this as a possibility because I never saw strobe from the timing light, so I figured it was always a spark issue at the plugs. Also, I dismissed it, because every other vehicle I've worked on with a distributor (chev, pontiac, and I thought even other fords) still ran (terribly I might add, but at least they fired randomly) even with the distributor 180 degrees out. Because I got a small detonation every 10 cranks or so, I figured again.... no spark.

    So, safe to say, I won't forget this anytime soon, at least now I know how to troubleshoot the spark issue for TFI fords

    The reason that it continued to happen over and over, is that I kept re-stabbing the distributor in exactly the same place (on purpose I might add). I should have checked for TDC at #1 much earlier in this troubleshooting process.

    Once we installed the valve covers and intake, and got everything back together, it fired up immediately. I have AWESOME oil pressure, and it idled by itself, but sporadically and really low. So, tomorrow I am going to change the oil and filter again (about an extra quart of fuel in the oil from all of the cranking) and rerun the Ford Racing idle set procedure, and see if that gets the idle stabilized.

    How long after having the ECU disconnected, does it take for the idle to settle in, once its adjusted properly?

    I'll also run the cylinder check through the diag port and make sure it all tests out.

    Thanks again for all of the help, and sorry for missing what should have been obvious to me right after putting the timing cover back on the engine after we fixed the oil galley plugs.
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

  4. #54
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    A few heat cycles and the ECU should learn a pretty good idle strategy, you can do a base idle reset afterwards if the throttle screw or what not could be out of adjustment.
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  5. #55
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    I must apologize - I thought of timing but dismissed it because of my belief that it would pop back out the intake if the timing were out 180. Well, with an EFI, would it? did it? Guess not. Tells you how many times I've put the dizzy in incorrectly on my EFI cars I guess........ zero. Lucky I guess.


    For those who are following the thread and may or may not know what is meant by 180 degree out on the distributor...... The distributor makes one full rotation for every two rotations of the engine. That makes it possible to put the distributor in with the motor at TDC for #1 but on the exhaust stroke. Its called 180 degree out because the distributor points 180 degrees from where it should be.

    With the cap off and the dizzy stabbed and the motor on TDC for #1, your rotor will be pointed directly to the firewall when the valves are closed on the right front hole if its "right". If you put the cap on you'll notice you are at the #1 plug wire.

    If you are 180 degrees out, no worries. Don't bother spinning the motor over to TDC on compresion. Just get it to TDC, pull the distributor and turn it 180 degrees, then put it back in.

    If you haven't moved the engine when you figure it out by looking at the valves - the rotor would go towards #6 so it points directly straight forward when you stab the distributor again.

    wire it up! fire it up!

    After getting that deep into a motor or more it is always music to a man's ears when he hears the wrench hit the toolbox after putting on the hold down on, and its like a favorite song is back on when he hits the switch, and his baby comes to life.

    I suggest you check your TPS voltage and base timing before you mess with anything else. For the best fuel map to happen, you want your TPS to show 0.98 volts or there-abouts.

    Before you mess with the throttle body, dial your base timing in with the advance stub out. I would advance until the motor just starts to speed up then back just barely and lock it down. Shut if off then try to restart it. If it doesn't kick back against the starter its about right for base advance.

    One other thought as you close this case...... since you are running a non-factory distributor read the info from the manufacturer. Does it have appropriately sized advance weights. its been a long time since I've had an expensive dizzy in my hands, but last I knew some aftermarket distributors added 4-6 degree of mechanical advance up top on their own. Those have to be installed at stock timing -- 10 degrees BTDC or you can end up with a lot of pinging and detonation from it being advanced too far. Overheating is a big problem then.

    I sure hope this seals the deal. Very happy to hear you have your car up and running with the MAF conversion!! If you have any feedback on the doc I sent, let me know. Its what I used when I did my car and a few others and its worked out well for me. Lots of homework went into making it for what its worth.

  6. #56
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    erratic50, thanks much for all of the help, and for that documentation... it was invaluable in the MAF conversion process. Hopefully I'll get it running perfectly tomorrow after the oil change.

    Thanks Ourobos, Walking-Tall, ZephyrEFI, dynodon64, Haystack, and BroncoJunkie, and all the others.... really can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the help, insight and conversation.
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

  7. #57
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    I suggest you check your TPS voltage and base timing before you mess with anything else. For the best fuel map to happen, you want your TPS to show 0.98 volts or there-abouts.

    Before you mess with the throttle body, dial your base timing in with the advance stub out. I would advance until the motor just starts to speed up then back just barely and lock it down. Shut if off then try to restart it. If it doesn't kick back against the starter its about right for base advance.

    One other thought as you close this case...... since you are running a non-factory distributor read the info from the manufacturer. Does it have appropriately sized advance weights. its been a long time since I've had an expensive dizzy in my hands, but last I knew some aftermarket distributors added 4-6 degree of mechanical advance up top on their own. Those have to be installed at stock timing -- 10 degrees BTDC or you can end up with a lot of pinging and detonation from it being advanced too far. Overheating is a big problem then.

    I sure hope this seals the deal. Very happy to hear you have your car up and running with the MAF conversion!! If you have any feedback on the doc I sent, let me know. Its what I used when I did my car and a few others and its worked out well for me. Lots of homework went into making it for what its worth.
    I need to recheck the TPS, as the last time I checked it, it was just over 1v... need to make the mount holes a little bigger.

    I will check on the distributor weights as well, I did see that I can change the advance curve... anyone here have a recommendation of using the standard curve that comes with the MSD distributor, versus other curves?
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

  8. #58
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    My general thought for a street car is not more than about 38 degrees of total advance. Sometimes you can get away with a little more like even 42.5 depending upon fuel and cam timing but rarely ever any farther.

    I can't remember what heads you're running. If they are anything high swirl like the 86's E6 head or Edelbrock heads, etc, those are great for low-end torque but they do not require as much advance to get a complete burn. Safer to end up with less advance with those.

    Distributors vary a little bit. Get so you can see your timing marks and rev it while the advance is hooked up holding the light. Also if it pings when you drive it hard you need to back off your advance curve or your base timing. I'd shoot for what it seems to like and not worry about the setting until I find it honestly.

    Stock dizzy's all fluctuated by a degree or two on total advance. If memory serves me correctly my original one did 26 and I could run 13.5 base for 39.5 total advance. The one I have now seems to usually only produce 24.5. (damn remans) but I can't go any farther than 14 on my base because of hard startup but I was down on power a little bit after the dizzy swap in 2011. (darn it)

    Factory cars usually like base advance higher than stock 10 degrees by just a little. 12.5 - 13.5 is what many stock 86's love. Some tolerated 14 but I've never had anything with a swirl head like the E6 that put up with 14.5 unless the dizzy was lazy. My 89 ragtop ran with 15 base and 41.5 total with E7 heads and stayed cool on the hottest days with only a 2 row radiator. All in, that 89 was in high advance territory but tolerated it with premium fuel just fine.

    If you're not running at least 91 octane in your pony, set the base at 10 and leave it alone.
    -- James

    Favorite thing I’ve said that’s been requoted: “"40 year old beercan on wheels with too much motor"

    My four eyed foxes:
    "Trigger" - 86 Mustang GT - Black with red interior. 5.0 T5 built as Z. Original motor ~1/2 million miles. 18 yr daily, 10 a toy
    "Silver" - 85 Mustang Saleen 1985-006? (Lol) Rare 1E silver GT / charcoal interior. The car is a little bit of a mystery. Current project bought as a roller, tons of Saleen / Racecraft pedigree

    Also in the stable - my son’s car. 1986 Mustang GT Convertible. Black/Black/Black conversion. 93 leather. VM1 ECU. T5Z

    past foxes -
    1989 Mustang LX Sport 5.0 AOD white/tan black top. Once I ran this one down I caught a wife.
    Wife also had a 1987 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe in the 90's.

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  9. #59
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    not sure how reliable or accurate it is, but here is some advance curve info on fox ECU versions

    https://mustangforums.com/forum/5-0l...the-5-0-a.html


    The speed density ECU they talked about is likely the VR1 or DS1. The VM1 was more aggressive and was notorious for killing T5's straight from the factory.

  10. #60

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    Never a dull moment, lol. Glad you got 'er going.

    Small block Ford factory cylinder heads have faster burning combustion chambers than lots of others, and don't normally need as much total timing, and definitely not as much as soon as the often magazine touted "all in by 2500rpm" business, and most especially not with aftermarket heads with even faster burning chambers.

    I'm curious now how you guys with EFI and EEC-IV are even able to play with ignition advance curves at all... with fixed tables of ignition advance rates based on a number of sensors' conditions...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  11. #61
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    The #1 way to play is with base timing advance or retard.

    Beyond that EECVI is supposed to handle it in non-adjustable mechanical and ECU controlled advance; however- you'll notice that the distributors are somewhat adjustable on their advance stop mechanism.

    Back in the carb motor land we would go nuts with weights and springs for the desired mechanical advance. AFAIK some of the aftermarket dizzies out there used a more tradition 85 style rotating assembly retrofit with electronic advance in place of vacuum. Then there are still things you can play with there.

    Not that I've ever owned one....... to me when I was younger and thought I had to have one they were made of pure gold and were untouchable.

    I do wish my current dizzy (el-cheapo reman) in my 86 would advance 26 rather than 24 all in. I can't run my base timing any higher than I am now and up top it tolerated more. I miss the "extra" power. If I decide I care enough I'll figure out how to get it back someday.

  12. #62
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    So I checked with MSD, and as was already said, all of the advance happens within the maps of the EEC. I initially thought there was some adjustabliity as the MSD box and the documents said there was a way to adjust the advance, but proceeded to show a carb/non-tfi distributor in all of the pics.

    I got the car running really well today. I actually initially set the timing at 12 degrees BTDC, set the idle, then set the overall timing to 30 degrees... total advance all in around 2300 rpm. Car stops immediately when the key is off, and doesn't tax the starter when I start it. I think its a good level of advance. Keith Black said that with their hypereutectic pistons, I shouldn't run any more than a total advance of 35 degrees, so I feel pretty good for now, we'll see after I get some miles on it.

    Drove the car around the block today, and it felt pretty good... I just can't beat on it too much yet, until I get a chance to let the clutch wear in.

    One other question... about how long do the OBD1 ECU's take to adapt and learn for good dependable driveability?
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

  13. #63
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ourobos View Post
    A few heat cycles and the ECU should learn a pretty good idle strategy, you can do a base idle reset afterwards if the throttle screw or what not could be out of adjustment.


    In the 1993 EECIV, the block learning, KAM takes a hot and cold cycle to properly log in the data points. It's very quick, and well set-up. The process is normally best done by taking an hour long, 50 mile drive with urban and turnpike speeds. The other way to do it is to buy some dyno time, and an extra front radaitor blower, and run the stanadrd emissions cycle IM test loads for an hour or so.


    One other way I've done it is by jacking up the car, and playing hand brake tag. Safe zone, where there is no chance of getting gassed form exhaust carbon monoxide

    Then Just mock drive it with the whole car fully and safely evelated, and hand brake load it to simulate engine load and highway grade.

  14. #64
    FEP Member vdubn's Avatar
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    I went ahead and put a MAC dual cat mid-pipe in the hopes it would pass my local emissions. All numbers looked good except for the idle HC. They were 550, need to be under 220. I know the engine was cold, and the cats were probably cold, and since I don't have a smog pump to pump air into the cats, I'm guessing that's why the numbers were high.

    In not sure what the numbers would be without cats, but ifbthe cats weren't working to their full potential, it could be similar. Car runs good, other than the idle not staying out, more on that later. I guess I need to check the plugs and see how they look... Once you rev the engine the HC look great. It passed the 2500 rpm test.

    The idle has been frustrating as I've set it a half dozen time with the Ford procedure, and after the car warms up, the idle is around 1200 rpm. I'm thinking the IAC may be shot. I get some idle hang when I come to a stop sometimes as well.
    85 GT Hatchback, T-Tops. 2012 Coyote 5.0L Swap, T56 Magnum, GT550 Dept of Boost kit, with Eaton M122 SC, RAM 11" Powergrip clutch, BBK Long Tubes/OR X-Pipe, Flowmaster Axle Back, Stifflers DS Loop, and Rear X-member, AJE Tube Crossmember with AJE-Mod Mounts, 3.73 Posi 8.8, 5 lug Cobra 13" fr and 12.6" rear disc swap, 2004 Hydroboost Swap, MM SubFrame Connectors, MM Panhard Bar, MM front A-Arms, MM rear control arms, MM CC Plates, MM Coilovers w/Koni dampeners, MM Torque Arm (soon to be installed).

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