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  1. #51
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default bottoms up (emissions symbol, acronym list) continued last

    fltr

    Name:  FLTR.jpg
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    Last edited by gr79; 03-18-2019 at 05:14 PM.

  2. #52

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    Yes!! GR and X thank you so much for taking the extra time and effort to answer, scan and post such valuable information and previous great links on this recurring subject Too bad Ford did not document the diagrams better for us as they did '82 up! I have spent many, many hours (multiple times over the years) going over these diagrams and thread links and finally, slowly it is starting to sink in and help. I believe I have most of what I need to start doing all of my spaghetti tracing now!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  3. #53
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Default

    Okay, I may be off base here, but recheck the obvious.


    First, assume 49 states, and check the basics.


    See
    Diagram 40 of 107 http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01H-R10%201980.html
    Diagram 41 of 107 http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01H-R15%201980.html


    (Both the same diagram).

    SOL V closest to driver side operates the carb primary throttle barrels "VOTM".


    The brown tinged color VOTM at the back of the carb is a non TSP type without a solenoid.

    No matter what the type, you use a Mitivac or hand held vac pump to test the 20" Hg and 10" Hg pressure bleed down specs.

    The passenger side SOL V controls the items which after 1982 were called TAB/TAD two stage upstream and downstream AIR.

    Once all those checks and balances are working, it won't " conk out" if the two stage SOL V's are "activated" or de-engergised.

    Normally, an old VOTM in regular service will work fine. Its designed to exceed 50000 miles if regularly used. If its been out of action, it may be leaking and not operating as Ford intended.

    The four lines from the two SOL V's need to be traced and tracked.


    Now some extra secondary thoughts.


    Your A/C unit is factory, and I'm thinking its got five total additional A/C only parts from

    Diagram 42 of 107. http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01S-R11%201980.html

    For all descriptive purposes, your car may in fact have a totally CA emissions line addition, as it clearly has the five element catwalk null knobs.

    Potentially, Ford can re-purpose those depending final market.

    .



    In your case, there is no non return valve diode, or "check valve" on yours at the green knob , a VDV.

    One of these which gr79 has described.



    Some VDV are unlisted on the VECI's for turbo 2.3's.


    In your case, it looks to be described different to gr79's.

    Count your Five (5) knobs, and just check if the routing has been arranged as per the CA VECI 42 of 107.



    Ford probably re-purposed them for CA A/C cars.

    I'm looking for:-

    the extra VCV , FLTR and ACV lines ,
    extra MAN PLNM (plenumb) take-off junction,
    re-routed A/CL CWM take-off.
    an additional two control solenoid for CA spec engines, (they are eventually a five fingered vac junction off 1 RNR),
    The 4RNR is additionally shown as being teed slightly differently, although I'm not certain how this occurs.

    The 1 RNR and its five junction knobs on the catwalk or what you might call the fender mounted Solenoid "null" knobs operate as an idle throttle kicker for the A/C via ignition advance. The orange one is the same as my TSB VOTM control common to 1981 3.3 liter Mustangs.

    Check those items again.

    The A/C CA version has five (5) technical inputs.


    The 49 states, only three can be adjusted under the VECI instructions.

    1. green TURBO light, ignition timing retard under boost.
    2. turbo boost related item under hood is the two level sensor assy on fender.
    3. For Pink or Red maybee, over boost warning light/buzzer.


    The 3 or 5 point 1 RNR related items are the same on the car, but will have been re-purposed for A/C equipped cars I'm guessing.

  4. #54
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default Pics of vac/pressure electronic control switches for carb turbo and EFI turbo

    1979 carb turbo switch assy for dash lights (top row 2 switches) and timing control (bottom row 3 switches).
    "Switches are unique to turbo engine or variations from the non-turbo engine."
    Name:  turbo boost array (1).jpg
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    Test-inspection procedures. Assy can be found connected to #1 or #4 RNR.
    Name:  turbo boost array (2).jpg
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    This one is from 1985.
    Top row of switches trigger the dash green TURBO and red ENGINE WARNING lights on carb and EFT turbo engines.
    EFI PCM took over ignition timing control. Early carb turbo bottom row of 3 switches for timing control deleted.
    Name:  turbo boost array (3).jpg
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    Operation of above switches.
    Overboost warning components may have been changed for higher boost levels of M81 and EFT turbo engines.
    Name:  turbo light operation.jpg
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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Okay, I may be off base here, but recheck the obvious.


    First, assume 49 states, and check the basics.


    See
    Diagram 40 of 107 http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01H-R10%201980.html
    Diagram 41 of 107 http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01H-R15%201980.html


    (Both the same diagram).

    SOL V closest to driver side operates the carb primary throttle barrels "VOTM".


    The brown tinged color VOTM at the back of the carb is a non TSP type without a solenoid.

    No matter what the type, you use a Mitivac or hand held vac pump to test the 20" Hg and 10" Hg pressure bleed down specs.

    The passenger side SOL V controls the items which after 1982 were called TAB/TAD two stage upstream and downstream AIR.

    Once all those checks and balances are working, it won't " conk out" if the two stage SOL V's are "activated" or de-engergised.

    Normally, an old VOTM in regular service will work fine. Its designed to exceed 50000 miles if regularly used. If its been out of action, it may be leaking and not operating as Ford intended.

    The four lines from the two SOL V's need to be traced and tracked.


    Now some extra secondary thoughts.


    Your A/C unit is factory, and I'm thinking its got five total additional A/C only parts from

    Diagram 42 of 107. http://myzephyrs.com/VAC_2.3/0-01S-R11%201980.html

    For all descriptive purposes, your car may in fact have a totally CA emissions line addition, as it clearly has the five element catwalk null knobs.

    Potentially, Ford can re-purpose those depending final market.

    .



    In your case, there is no non return valve diode, or "check valve" on yours at the green knob , a VDV.

    One of these which gr79 has described.



    Some VDV are unlisted on the VECI's for turbo 2.3's.


    In your case, it looks to be described different to gr79's.

    Count your Five (5) knobs, and just check if the routing has been arranged as per the CA VECI 42 of 107.



    Ford probably re-purposed them for CA A/C cars.

    I'm looking for:-

    the extra VCV , FLTR and ACV lines ,
    extra MAN PLNM (plenumb) take-off junction,
    re-routed A/CL CWM take-off.
    an additional two control solenoid for CA spec engines, (they are eventually a five fingered vac junction off 1 RNR),
    The 4RNR is additionally shown as being teed slightly differently, although I'm not certain how this occurs.

    The 1 RNR and its five junction knobs on the catwalk or what you might call the fender mounted Solenoid "null" knobs operate as an idle throttle kicker for the A/C via ignition advance. The orange one is the same as my TSB VOTM control common to 1981 3.3 liter Mustangs.

    Check those items again.

    The A/C CA version has five (5) technical inputs.


    The 49 states, only three can be adjusted under the VECI instructions.

    1. green TURBO light, ignition timing retard under boost.
    2. turbo boost related item under hood is the two level sensor assy on fender.
    3. For Pink or Red maybee, over boost warning light/buzzer.


    The 3 or 5 point 1 RNR related items are the same on the car, but will have been re-purposed for A/C equipped cars I'm guessing.
    Just wow. I'm slowly catching on thanks X. I wont have a chance until tomorrow to start my tracing but will start with the SOLV lines. Given that there is no idle adjustment screw I'll first make sure the lines are in tact and then get a vacuum tester and check out the throttle valve. As for the 5 null knobs they all join together and now route to RNR1 as per the diagram. I don't believe there was any check valve in there but will double-check.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  6. #56

    Default

    So great thanks for the test procedures and explanation GR! And i am confirming no check valve in the knobs area. All 5 join together and route now correctly to RNR1 (with a t in there for the boost gauge which previously I confirmed now works after moving to RNR1).
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 01-25-2019 at 08:33 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  7. #57

    Default

    Just got my Ford factory 1980 ESSDS book and all three diagrams I was homed in on say for A/T car! Looks like I may have a bit more digging to do...

    Edit- based on what I am reading my VECI is now most likely 0-2E-R0 as it shows dual SOLV, SPK-RET for turbo, E0ZE-AAA for carb which my tag shows (although the VECI adds 9510 vs. my carb 8957 tag stamped on base & 8510 raised front) and is listed for 49 State. It also is a match for my Distributor, Carb and IVV part numbers so I'm going to roll with this unless I find anything different!

    Consolidated parts ID


    BTW this book covers all engines from 1980 if you can't find yours listed on myzephyrs.com site...
    Last edited by m81mclaren; 01-29-2019 at 07:25 PM.
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  8. #58
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Default

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...e-(carb)/page2

    pacecartodd's





    Fords 9C369 SA-FV Separtor Assembley Fuel- Vacuum




    Red and yellow lines are standard vac lines for Manifold and Distibutor, respectively.

    VCV,


    VDV, and the turquois line is really Blue = effectively, some kind of defacto Throttle Kicker control.

    It could do it a number of ways, effectively behaving as a means of sustaining vacuum under step off.


    It may use the the heater vent suction control or the Horsepower Screw.


    The way it was done on the later 1981 Fords was much more simple.

    Hopefully this will give you an ah-ha moment.

    Yellow line to distributor
    Red to Manifold

    Purge lines you have to follow through





    Quote Originally Posted by myle860 View Post
    Now that the sun is out here is what I have going on.








  9. #59

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    Thanks again X! I'm down to the last item on my list of needs to complete the full setup for my Anti Backfire/Air BPV/SOLV. I am looking for a red 9A995A TVS Temperature Vacuum Switch and a clip that attaches it to the air cleaner housing. Does anyone have a spare from their "deletion" pile?! I believe this will solve the backfire I'm getting when I shift gears under full throttle and will also get me through the Smog visual check.
    Goes here

    From the 5k mi car

    looks like this crunchy one on ebay:
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  10. #60
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by m81mclaren View Post
    Thanks again X! I'm down to the last item on my list of needs to complete the full setup for my Anti Backfire/Air BPV/SOLV. I am looking for a red 9A995A TVS Temperature Vacuum Switch and a clip that attaches it to the air cleaner housing. Does anyone have a spare from their "deletion" pile?! ......
    looks like this crunchy one on ebay:
    TuxStang's TVS CWM CWM Truncated


    NPD lists one for twenty four ping. Depending on color, it depends on what its called.




    "VALVE ASSY, CARBURETOR AIR CLEANER VACUUM CONTROL, TVS VALVE, W/ ID CODES *D7EE-9A995-AA*, *777F-9A995-BA*, ORIGINAL, D7FZ-9A995-A

    Ford Mustang Years:

    1979 (79), 1980 (80), 1981 (81), 1982 (82), 1983 (83)"

    The tempered steel clip is from any white, pink, green or red TVS from the air cleaner.

    A new Red one will impress the heck out of your Smog Man....

    see fgross2006 for his ebay gotten item back in 2016.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...42#post1863142


    Here's a green one from 85MUSTANGTGT's CFi 5.0 HO .... Wilson's 83 5.0 4v SROD had the same part





  11. #61
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Default

    If you are getting a used or new one, its best to check the 50 F open, 60 F closed figure.Very importantly, its Normally Closed.

    The turbo 2.3 Carb engine takes a 227 cfm carb designed for a 2.3 engine making 88 hp, then sucks underneath the carb another 50% more air by the operation of the turbo, so its operating under 335 cfm worth of flow at wide open throttle to make 132 hp. If the boost ratio is turned up to 11 psi, then the carb is asked to flow 400 cfm. Those vacuum switches have to be 100% correct, or it'll close off the power valve, and excessively lean out the engine. Whihc is probably what has been happening under a savage Wide Open Throttle, or a quick step off on the accelerator pedal.

    JACook noted that the Truck F150/250/350's in 5.8 HO form had a white TVS to ensure the power valve wasn't prevented from opening under wide open throttle. The Red TVS does the same thing for a draw through Turbo 2.3.

    cf this TVS rating blurb from Luke76:-



    Just be very aware Red TVS is not listed here below in JACook's post, but the details above are correct, and its operation and specfications are generally supplied, and its color governs its name.TVS, CWM or ACTS


    Quote Originally Posted by JACook View Post
    The cold weather modulator valves assures that the vacuum motors stay closed during WOT acceleration, when
    the ambient temperature is below the set-point of the valve. But they should not ever prevent the vacuum motors
    from closing. Think of them as a temperature-sensitive one-way check valve.

    To test the basic function of the valve, stick it in the fridge or freezer. Once it's chilled, connect a vacuum pump
    to the small port, and a vacuum gauge to the large port, and pull a vacuum. Then release the vacuum on the
    hand pump. When the valve is below it's rated temperature, it should continue to hold vacuum for 30 seconds.

    You could also submerge the valve in a glass of ice water with the vacuum hoses connected, then slowly warm
    the water to check the calibration. Done this way, you can actually hear it click when it changes state.

    Black modulator valve should switch at -6.7C / 20F
    Blue modulator valve should switch at 4.4C / 40F
    Green modulator valve should switch at 10C / 50F.
    Yellow modulator valve should switch at 18.3C / 65F

    Dunno about purple, but you need to be aware that parts that look similar can have very different function. Your
    purple valve may be a Thermal Vacuum Valve instead, and those come in both normally closed and normally open
    flavors. For example, my '85 Vert has one of these on the passenger side of the air cleaner, to control the exhaust
    flapper valve. It's yellow, and it's open when cold, opposite what a CWM would be.

    The bi-metal sensor should begin to bleed vacuum at the following temperatures, according to color code:
    Brown - not more than 24C / 75F
    Black or Pink - not more than 32.2C / 90F
    Blue, Yellow, or Green - not more than 40.5C / 105F

    (For temperatures with multiple color codes, the different colors denote different vacuum bleed rates when the
    bi-metal valve is open.)

  12. #62
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Default the other spec- turbo engine 5200 is a larger carb

    Interesting calculations on the turbo carb cfm flows, X!
    Adding a note:
    My 79 has turbo carb tag D9ZE-MD
    Specs from 1979 Ford Car Performance Specifications booklet:
    Throttle bores P=32mm, S= 36mm. Same as N/A carbs.

    Both turbo and n/a carbs have 27mm secondary venturis.
    However, turbo carb primary venturi size differs from n/a.
    Turbo primary is 26mm, n/a primary is 22mm. Easy to see the diff visually looking down the 'troat.
    Due to the larger primary venturi, read spec is 270 cfm for turbo carbs.
    A turbo carb is different from n/a, but looks like any other 5200 at quick glance.
    Closely check for correct sizes, ports, and calibration parts internally when replacing the oe carb with rebuilt, etc.

  13. #63
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Interesting calculations on the turbo carb cfm flows, X!
    Adding a note:
    My 79 has turbo carb tag D9ZE-MD
    Specs from 1979 Ford Car Performance Specifications booklet:
    Throttle bores P=32mm, S= 36mm. Same as N/A carbs.

    Both turbo and n/a carbs have 27mm secondary venturis.
    However, turbo carb primary venturi size differs from n/a.
    Turbo primary is 26mm, n/a primary is 22mm. Easy to see the diff visually looking down the 'troat.
    Due to the larger primary venturi, read spec is 270 cfm for turbo carbs.
    A turbo carb is different from n/a, but looks like any other 5200 at quick glance.
    Closely check for correct sizes, ports, and calibration parts internally when replacing the oe carb with rebuilt, etc.

    True dat.

    To clarify.


    The standard Holley Weber 5200 series carb (Holley G180, any of the 1970-1979 versions, any of the other handed mirror image 1970- currnet Weber 32/36's as well), they were always a 225 to 230 cfm carb measured at 1.5" Hg or 20.3" of water pressure drop.

    The other 52XX/62XX/65XX Chevette/Vega/K car versions have other venturi sizes, and other ratings.

    For all non turbo Ford 2 and 2.3 liter OHC's until the 1980-82 model year downgrades, they were standard primary was 26 mm, secondary, 27 mm. In 1980, Ford USA downgraded the non turbo carb to a 22 mm primary venturi, and it lost CFM.

    Elseware Fords European version of the 2-bbl Weber version stayed a 26/27 venturi carb till the end of production in South African Ford P-100's. USA, Canada and South America were alone in downgrading the Holley Weber. It got replaced by the 1-bbl Carter YFA in 1983, rated at a dismal 195-200 cfm at 3" Hg with just one approx 33 mm choke venturi.

    The 1970-1979 FoMoCo Holley Weber 270 cfm rating is at 2" Hg, a reading contrived because the other 350/500/650 Holley 2-bbls are all rated at 3" Hg.


    The 1980 model year non turbo downgrade wiped off 19 cfm from primary carb flow at 2"Hg, or made it a 250 cfm carb the way Holley USA rated it. The Holley Weber rating is in line with the way the industiry looked to be heading in 1970. Impco Gas and Autolite/Motorcraft and Carter were suggesting a 2 inches of Mercury rating for 4 cylinder 2-bbl carbs. That was not consistant with the traditional 3" Hg 1 -bbl and 2-bbl and 1.5" Hg 4-bbl ratings Holley used. Holley decided to consistantly report the Holley Weber versions at 2" Hg, and all the Holley books use that rating system for the Weber based 5200/5210/5220/6200/6210/6500/6520.

    By 1980, the Holley 5740 or so called Carter Weber is just a European Escort carb made in the USA. In this instance, they rated it at 1.5"Hg, or just 180 cfm.

  14. #64
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Quite a story this engine has generated. The external tech part is mind boggling as any.
    Complicated but interesting to sift thru trying to put 2+2 together. Verifying parts and function (individual and overall relating) is challenging.
    Someday current ecoboost tc owners may go thru the same. Good luck to them.
    Has been said before older engines were easier to work on. Sure, up to a point. The last mile (engine tuning with so many emissions items) is a tough go.
    Credit to Ford engineers to have built in a fail safe forgiving mode or something, that has gotten me and others down the road this far with alternate fixes and less items functioning as intended. Mine started and ran fine today, without every smog or drive-ability part operating in unison, as back in 1980.

  15. #65

    Default

    Thanks guys for helping so much and sharing your knowledge. Interesting indeed! Once I put in this TVS and some last fine tuning I’m going to call it good. My plan is to not drive this at 10/10 and to hold boost at the 6-7 psi level and keep my hands off the fun dial in the cabin. There’s just too many things that could send this car lean in even the best conditions and it’s unclear what subtle modifications were done by McLaren Engines to be able push the limits safely to make it worth the risk going beyond. It’s pretty peppy now and I’d like to get through Smog so my son and I can finally start enjoying driving and showing it this year. There are a lot of jobs still left to do and I’m sure more surprises in store to learn from!
    Current FEP:
    1980 M81 McLaren Carb Turbo 2.3T #003P ... IT'S ALIVE after a 22 year slumber thread!

    Past FEP:
    1986 Capri GS 5.0- very missed but in goods hands
    1985 LTD SSP- quick little fox 5.0

  16. #66
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Sounds like a good idea to leave it be for a while. time to enjoy the work done, the car, and new memories.
    Getting it reliable, dependable, clean running, correct running, is the major battle to be won.
    Once driving it and getting to know it, solid baseline config established, can always go into it again and do a 'what if?'.
    Changing one thing at a time and noting any result. Plus over time, we learn more. Sure has helped me to refocus and learn more.
    Like me, with the bigger carb experiment. Carb adapter/spacer mod is progressing nicely, slowly but surely.
    Spreading out a weekend's worth of work over span of months. No hurry, no mistakes (hopefully).
    With no cutting or permanent mods to the stock setup or irreplaceable parts, can always go back quickly to dependable stock config.
    Is cool to share info, comforting to know there are others with same type of engines out there and desire to have fun with them as intended..

  17. #67
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Great idea.

    As both you and gr79 know, its a stock 17.4 second 1/4 mile car, enough spank for today's driving conditions. M81, people are always gonna want to know....What The Heck is That!

    Enjoy!

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