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  1. #126
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    So, you can't buy an ASC pump it appears. I can't find their part numbers anywhere. All the parts stores sell "standard" rotation pumps. So I bought an AW4035 pump off Amazon. I will compare the impellers, but I expect them to be different.

    It's very frustrating that these listings are so incorrect or flat-out vague. I don't think I've personally seen a 5.0 engine with a standard rotation pulley. Does anyone on here have one?

    Gates lists two numbers and they have both of them listed as standard rotation on their website and on Napa. I called them, because the local Napa sells them, but I'm not going to waste my time guessing which one is listed wrong. How is it that companies like Airtex don't even list the rotation with the part number? And how is it that Gates can't get their stuff straight to have them listed properly on their website? One is a standard rotation and the other with the larger impeller has to be reverse. So get it right.

    The running changes and lack of continuity that Ford did doesn't help. I've had multiple occasions of getting the wrong parts for this car because they installed earlier stuff on it. Ridiculous.

    I hope this solves the problem.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  2. #127

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    85stanggt,
    Airtex lists a different part number for the '86-93 mustangs, an AW4038. Have you checked out one of these? Seems like I ended up asking for the later pump when I built my 347. Rockauto even shows a Motorcraft pump available for the '86-93.



    Thought I'd post the following for informational purposes.

    I have what I believe is my original waterpump from my '85 GT. It has an E4ZE prefix and is a reverse-rotation/serpentine pump. I'm not sure when my car was built as I no longer have my door tag, but do have the engine calibration sticker on my valve cover which has a date of 12/84.

    Innards:


    Part Number:
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  3. #128
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    That's the style of impeller I remember to have on my 84. Yes that one is differently a reverse rotation.

  4. #129

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    Because I have the CFI most of the time I just order stuff for 86 (ignition components, serpentine, water pump, etc) invariably they give me the wrong part if I say 1984 with fuel injection. That said, you can't even buy a distributor that will work with my car anymore. The shaft on the 86 is 5mm too long and nothing earlier comes with TFI in the aftermarket arena (don't ask me or my local autozone how I know). When I ordered the water pump for my engine when it was being built, I just went to 86 and got that since I knew it would have to be reverse rotation. I also asked around here to make sure it matched up to my gear cover.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  5. #130
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85MUSTANGTGT View Post
    85stanggt,
    Airtex lists a different part number for the '86-93 mustangs, an AW4038. Have you checked out one of these? Seems like I ended up asking for the later pump when I built my 347. Rockauto even shows a Motorcraft pump available for the '86-93.
    No I didn't. I didn't think to get an '86 pn. Whats the difference between the 85 and 86 pumps? Is it just casting differences? All I know is AW4035 is reverse rotation and listed for '85 FI cars. I'm ignoring the FI part and just getting it because it's for 1985 and reverse rotation. This keeps getting more confusing.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  6. #131

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    FWIW I did some digging on this same question of reverse vs standard pumps as well a while back for my 80 cobra.

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 86 and up pumps were a better design with more flow. Anyways I ended up getting a Gates 43272 aluminum reverse rotation for an 86 mustang and it has worked out great. I believe it will fit your timing cover. Interesting that my sons 80 cobra from original had the reverse rotation pump as well with the serpentine belt so the early models did have it.

    You should be able to get one at Rock auto or even Amazon for very reasonable.

  7. #132

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    I should also mention that Gates 43272 pump does fit the D9TE 6059 timing cover from my 80. I would assume this is the same timing cover on your 85.

  8. #133

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    Just happen to have pics of the 43272 pump for reference.

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  9. #134
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Great info thanks! Great pics too! The inside of that one looks very different with the channels in there. The other pumps are just the impeller inside.

    It seems to me so far in my research, that anything with an 8 vane 4.4" impeller is a reverse rotation pump. The standard rotation pumps seem to have the smaller 6 vane 3.5" impeller. I don't have concrete evidence of this, but that seems to be what I'm seeing, at least for 1985.

    I will post pics of the AW4035 when I get it.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  10. #135

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    I don't recall the reason now that I decided to use the later water pump when I assembled my engine. I vaguely remember the remember the inside of the pump I installed looked like the photos at_the_junkyard posted. I do know that it bolted on without issue and it has worked well for me for the last 7 years in my 347.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  11. #136
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Damn I hate generic parts suppliers!

  12. #137

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    Also I found that the timing cover gasket sets don't always include the correct backing plate gasket.

    I ended up ordering individual Mahle K30707 for the plate and Mahle K27955 for the pump to timing cover etc. They are cheap order a few of them while your at it Always good to have some spares !!

  13. #138
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Ok, so I pulled the new "standard rotation" pump off the car today. I took some pictures of the old pump that was on the car for 10 years and the new "reverse rotation" pump I have to replace it. Both the old pump of 10 years and the new "standard rotation" pump I just removed look exactly the same.

    In this picture, the left pump is the reverse rotation and right is the old standard rotation that was on there for 10 years. How it didn't overheat, I don't know.


    The tech guy at ASC/Airtex said the impleller fins are supposed to "push" the coolant. Here is the new pump. You can see if the shaft is spinning counter-clockwise, that is what will happen.


    And the old standard rotation pump. Those fins would be "scooping" the coolant if the shaft is spinning counter-clockwise.


    Installed on the timing cover and waiting for the thin skim of RTV to set for 24 hours before refilling and testing it out.


    I don't have the pulley on in these pictures, but it is a smooth surface pulley, which is indicative of reverse rotation pumps, for those that run into this in the future.


    The real question is, why do all of these places (Rockauto, Advance Auto, Orielly, Autozone, etc) have the wrong pump listed for carbureted 5.0 engines? They all specify part numbers for standard rotation pumps. You have to order a pump for an '85 fuel injected car to get the reverse rotation pump. For those that find this in the future, the Airtex AW-4035 pump is the REVERSE ROTATION pump and should be the one you purchase. The equivalent ASC part number is WP-649. GMB and Gates have two different part numbers in their listings, but they both say they are standard rotation. No good. Either they don't know what they're doing or they listed one of them wrong. I'm not playing that game again.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 01-22-2019 at 10:06 PM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  14. #139

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    It looks like a good pump. Hope this fixes the problem.

    Yeah, that bit is a royal pain. You just can't trust the stores at all when it comes to these cars. I have found even cjpony and lmr will often have the same problem unless you have an 86 and later engine.
    1984.5 G.T.350 5.0 CFI AOD Convertible (TRX package, loaded)
    K&N filter in a stock dual snorkel, GT40 heads, Edelbrock 3721 intake, MSD 8456 Dist., MSD 8227 coil
    Comp cams XE254H, hypereutectic pistons
    Hooker Super Comp Shorty Equal Length Headers, catted BBK H-pipe, full custom duals
    Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates and strut tower brace, 3.73 rear, dura grip (both Yukon)
    Ford Performance Springs, Firehawk A/S 225/55r16 on LMR TRX r390 wheels (street)
    Federal 595 rs-rr 245/40r17 and 255/40r17 on OE cobra r wheels (race)
    AOD rebuilt with a 6 clutch direct drum, Koline steels stacked with 8 clutches, Kevlar band, superior shift kit, new torque converter. --Everything else stock and fully functional.

  15. #140
    FEP Senior Member BMW Rider's Avatar
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    The thing to remember about a centrifugal pump is that it does not work like a paddle wheel. The fluid enters the pump at the eye of the impeller and is flung off the blades by centrifugal force towards the outside of the volute housing. The design of the different impellers in the two pumps you show are quite different. The old one being a relatively crude design was in your favour as it could work semi effectively even in the wrong rotation. The new pumps impeller is a more efficient design, but would be highly ineffective in the wrong rotation.

  16. #141
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    There are other parts like this that they get wrong 100% of the time. Early V8 car wheel bearings, steering racks, 87 and later LX sport wheel bearings, etc.

    Its been how it is the entire life of these cars. Angry mustang owners or not there is not a sole in the parts business with enough influence to get things done that has an interest in helping solve it.....

    And even LMR usually messes stuff up unless it’s for 87-93. And even those cars had changes that they mess up on too

  17. #142
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    For future reference, don't use RTV on gaskets of any kind. RTV is meant to be a gasket by itself. What do you think the gasket is for? If you want to put anything on a paper type gasket like these, use grease. Just coat both side with a very light layer, basically wipe it on and remove as much of it as you can with your fingers. This has worked for me for over 30 years, and it make the gasket removal so much easier in the future.

  18. #143
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodon64 View Post
    For future reference, don't use RTV on gaskets of any kind. RTV is meant to be a gasket by itself. What do you think the gasket is for? If you want to put anything on a paper type gasket like these, use grease. Just coat both side with a very light layer, basically wipe it on and remove as much of it as you can with your fingers. This has worked for me for over 30 years, and it make the gasket removal so much easier in the future.
    That is a good tip. Personally I’ve only ever used a thin coat of RTV if the seal is in a place that’s a bear to get things installed like the thermostat housing. The Gates self adhesive gaskets are the best I’ve found for that chore. They hold the bolts and thermostat and everything...

    Grease is good on this for sure.

    one of my friends who is a mechanic by trade and I helped a lot with his builds in the 90’s had a go to favorite for that stuff. There is a torque aid that seals bolts going into the water jackets. It also lubricates and serves as anti seize. It’s recommenced for torquing head bolts but works great for many things... even this. NAPA carries it, it’s from permatex. A thin coating of that stuff works well as I recall.

    Anyway .... +1 on the over use of RTV. it usually just makes a mess of stuff.

  19. #144
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Could have been Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket.
    Permatex Permashield fuel resistant Gasket Dressing & Sealant #85420 (tube) is great.
    Blue and tacky. Non-setting. Same as Hylomar. Great for holding a paper t-stat gasket in place.
    Smear thin layer on gaskets with fingertip. Used it to seal shifter base to trans and allow easy removal.

    Black RTV is used for rear axle cover like factory did. Paper gaskets leak there.
    Let it set up pretty firmly but not cured thru, so the bead holds its shape when parts are torqued.
    Semi-curing and bead size is important to minimize any RTV squishing out internally into axle or engine.

  20. #145
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    It looks like a good pump. Hope this fixes the problem.

    Yeah, that bit is a royal pain. You just can't trust the stores at all when it comes to these cars. I have found even cjpony and lmr will often have the same problem unless you have an 86 and later engine.
    Yeah, it's crazy. Before moving back down permanently to FL, I had the car at a shop in CT getting new front struts, brakes, etc, since my tools were packed and in a moving truck. They were working on it while we were driving our DD cars down the coast. I get a phone call saying that the rack bushings I got from LMR and bearings and seals they got from Napa didn't fit. I had to buy the pre-84 rack bushings with larger ID from LMR and LMR sent bearings too. The bushings fit, but one of the bearings (either inner or outer) was still wrong. They ended up getting the right one and the correct seal, but it took a couple days of phone calls and some overnight shipping to get the car back together so we could drive it down the coast. Between that experience and this water pump experience I'm beyond frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Rider View Post
    The thing to remember about a centrifugal pump is that it does not work like a paddle wheel. The fluid enters the pump at the eye of the impeller and is flung off the blades by centrifugal force towards the outside of the volute housing. The design of the different impellers in the two pumps you show are quite different. The old one being a relatively crude design was in your favour as it could work semi effectively even in the wrong rotation. The new pumps impeller is a more efficient design, but would be highly ineffective in the wrong rotation.
    Right. The Airtex guy was explaining that. It seems the reverse rotation pumps are always the larger 4" impeller on left with 8 vanes, whereas the standard rotation pumps are the 3.5" impeller on right with the rudimentary looking 6 vane layout. That's the dead give away with these. The reverse rotation pump on standard rotation car looks like it would literally be scooping the coolant and shoving up the lower radiator hose.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    There are other parts like this that they get wrong 100% of the time. Early V8 car wheel bearings, steering racks, 87 and later LX sport wheel bearings, etc.

    Its been how it is the entire life of these cars. Angry mustang owners or not there is not a sole in the parts business with enough influence to get things done that has an interest in helping solve it.....

    And even LMR usually messes stuff up unless it’s for 87-93. And even those cars had changes that they mess up on too
    Yup, as in my wheel bearing and steering rack bushing story above...crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by dynodon64 View Post
    For future reference, don't use RTV on gaskets of any kind. RTV is meant to be a gasket by itself. What do you think the gasket is for? If you want to put anything on a paper type gasket like these, use grease. Just coat both side with a very light layer, basically wipe it on and remove as much of it as you can with your fingers. This has worked for me for over 30 years, and it make the gasket removal so much easier in the future.
    Appreciate the tip. I use Permatex black and skim a thin layer on both sides of the gaskets with my finger. It not only helps the gasket stay in place, but also I find there are less leaks long-term (as in years down the line when the paper decays away). Admittedly, I started this on my '98 740il, which is quite good at leaking oil when those rubber gaskets get hard (doesn't take long). A thin skim, and things stay sealed up for good. It's hard to find a BMW V8 that isn't seeping oil, but mine isn't at 237k, which I attribute to skimming those gaskets when I did the timing chain guides 40k ago. That's only on those gaskets I do that to. The BMW water pump gasket is paper with a rubbery bead, no RTV. T-stat is a rubber o-ring that never leaks, etc.

    Removing the water pump off the Mustang I just installed a few weeks ago, which I did the same thing to, wasn't terrible. A razor to get any stuck areas started and then peel. Don't you find the paper gaskets to degrade and start leaking in fairly short order? They feel so cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    That is a good tip. Personally I’ve only ever used a thin coat of RTV if the seal is in a place that’s a bear to get things installed like the thermostat housing. The Gates self adhesive gaskets are the best I’ve found for that chore. They hold the bolts and thermostat and everything...

    Grease is good on this for sure.

    one of my friends who is a mechanic by trade and I helped a lot with his builds in the 90’s had a go to favorite for that stuff. There is a torque aid that seals bolts going into the water jackets. It also lubricates and serves as anti seize. It’s recommenced for torquing head bolts but works great for many things... even this. NAPA carries it, it’s from permatex. A thin coating of that stuff works well as I recall.

    Anyway .... +1 on the over use of RTV. it usually just makes a mess of stuff.
    I chased all the WP threads in the cover and on the bolts to clean them out. I put a thin skim of permatex anti-seize on the WP bolt threads and shaft in case there is leakage. But again, using a thin skim of RTV on the gaskets, especially by the water jackets on the cover and around those WP bolts, I really don't get leakage long term. The only bolt that had a hint of leakage was the lower right bolt when I took the first pump off that was on there for 10 years, but no corrosion. Now THAT pump I put too much red RTV on, but I was a kid at the time and didn't know better. Still, the gasket came off cleanly, but that's probably because it was ready to come off after 10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by gr79 View Post
    Could have been Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket.
    Permatex Permashield fuel resistant Gasket Dressing & Sealant #85420 (tube) is great.
    Blue and tacky. Non-setting. Same as Hylomar. Great for holding a paper t-stat gasket in place.
    Smear thin layer on gaskets with fingertip. Used it to seal shifter base to trans and allow easy removal.

    Black RTV is used for rear axle cover like factory did. Paper gaskets leak there.
    Let it set up pretty firmly but not cured thru, so the bead holds its shape when parts are torqued.
    Semi-curing and bead size is important to minimize any RTV squishing out internally into axle or engine.
    I tried that Permashield blue stuff. Man that stuff gets everywhere. I also found that it didn't do great sealing some stuff on my BMW. I got oil leaks using the Permashield.

    Permatex Black has been the best for me. The tube says "Maximum Oil Resistance" and I'd agree. I put a thin skim on the gasket surfaces and install the parts finger tight for an hour as the directions describe to let the RTV develop a skin. Then torque to specs after the hour and let sit for 24 hrs for full cure. If you don't use too much, it makes for a very clean gasket install appearance. I find it essentially "rubberizes" the paper gaskets for a good seal. I'll have to take a picture.


    Anyway, coolant is in, and bled. This time, things acted as expected. I see the level in the radiator drop considerably when the engine is revved and the pump is sucking in the coolant from the lower hose. I see flow through the top of the core at idle. The engine warmed up, t-stat opened and burped the remaining air out, and coolant leveled off once I topped up. Needle stayed perfectly in the middle and the full radiator felt warm with the lower hose warm, but cooler than the rest. I'll try to drive it the next couple days and see if I can get it to overflow, but this looks to be the smoking gun I was looking for.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 01-24-2019 at 04:01 AM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  21. #146
    FEP Senior Member Matt J's Avatar
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    I'm glad it looks like you got it fixed. This is how it goes, you fix all the stuff that it must be because it couldn't be the thing you're pretty sure is already right, and in the end you're replacing that thing. These cars have been worked on by so many people over the years it's impossible to know what is right or not until you end up replacing everything the right way. Look at it this way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your cooling system and you'll never have to worry about it. Regarding parts suppliers, it's tough for them, Ford interchanged parts all the time, which I guess works for keeping costs down, but tough on mechanics and parts suppliers. I went through a disaster trying to find the right fan wheel for the cabin air blower, ended up getting something from a truck, as I recall. it helps to bring the original to the counter and if you get the right person, they'll know where to find the right stuff. It doesn't help when the part you take off is wrong though!

    The really amazing thing is that it worked okay for so long with the wrong pump in it. Kind of makes you wonder how many cars there are out there with the wrong pump, doesn't it?

  22. #147
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    It's incredible. I texted my dad the pictures of the two pumps and he couldn't believe I didn't have more issues. And I drove it 1500 miles up the coast and then down the coast with no issues. I'm guessing the restrictor may have changed the balance and resistance in the system enough to make the pump the problem. BUT let's wait until I get it on the highway to make sure it doesn't overflow again. Been down this road too many times
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  23. #148
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    For sure a smoking gun! I hope it fixes it!

  24. #149
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    Hope test drives go well. Test procedures usually work but can be inconclusive or less efficient than parts chasing.
    Plenty of times, the last changes made give a clue to malfunction, especially if changes are done one at a time.
    All is not lost. Experience. Good take off parts can be saved to be used as known good substitute parts for diagnostics.

    Parts catalogs have always contained errors, typos, etc. Keep getting passed along to other reseller catalogs.
    So many parts to re-check by non savvy office or floor personal. No "oh that cant be right make a note of it".
    Never noticed, questioned, ignored as correct by the human factory robot that management desires.
    Correct parts placed in wrong box, or vice versa, by new, over tasked, distracted employees. Happens every day somewhere.
    Large OEM factories bar code parts. Scanners and cameras check parts, assy. Checkpoint errors stop the line.
    Aftermarket loves to reap profits and lean out inventory using close enough generic interchanges whenever possible.
    Over time, the details that really matter get lost or are impossible to replicate again and be cost effective.
    Specific app low volume items for old cars that were once mass produced will be gone someday if not already.
    Will get worse with time. Cars of old used fewer parts, simpler designs, more interchangeability than now.

    The changes, heater hose restrictor, etc could have tipped the balance, especially if it was borderline good.
    And the thought of pump 'scooping' coolant backwards into the lower hose vs paddle wheels sounds valid.

    I agree. The blue sticky stuff is messy as anti-sieze, silicone. Gets everywhere, hard to clean off hands, clothing.
    Am thankful for walnut paste, or the less effective but cheaper pumice based, hand cleaners.
    Lots still use (me included) Permatex Indian Head shellac in the little bottle. Great for new block core plugs.
    Red High Tack, Seal All, Goop, Vaseline. Something for everyone, correct application or not.
    Black RTV has always been a favorite go to. Useful for many things. Also Ultra Grey, Ultra Copper.
    We used cases of GE black RTV at Ford, sealing the ends of the cork intake gaskets on FT engines.
    Couple tubes per shift. The caulk gun size. We used regular caulk guns on the production line.
    For me, most of the time RTV works, not always. Guess it depends on technique on gaskets. Squirt and learn.
    It failed smeared on a rear end cover paper gasket. Worked as a bead, no gasket.
    I don't mind redo as long as it does not involve heavy repair; pulling engine, trans, iron intakes.
    Last edited by gr79; 01-24-2019 at 10:04 PM.

  25. #150
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Just a small update. I've been driving the car to work every day now (transmission officially died in the 740 ) just around town. I took it on the highway for a short trip and all was well, but I feel like that wasn't a definitive test. I'll get it out there soon once I have some time off.

    One things I'm noticing is that the coolant isn't being drawn back into the radiator when the car cools off. But I think that probably has to do with residual air being burped out after I did the water pump (I took gr79's suggestion and hooked up my compressor to the bypass outlet on the thermostat housing and blew some air in there to empty the rest of the coolant out of the block. I didn't get everything but a lot more came out). So there's probably some air that worked itself out driving around even after my bleeding attempt. Then I'm figuring air in the radiator won't let the system contract to suck coolant back in? I will siphon out from the overflow and top off the radiator and see what happens.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

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