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  1. #1

    Default Big bad street power

    Watched a few episodes of engine masters on YouTube. It's the guys from roadkill so they are definitely going against conventional thinking or even in some cases popular opinions on what equals sanity, but the outcomes were some impressive dyno pulls!

    https://youtu.be/p1wU_8-JM

    check out the first pull on their 351W stroked to 408. Conservative compression, relatively small street friendly cam, AFR165 renegade heads, Edelbrock air gap, 850 CFM Holley... over 500lbs of torque at from 3500-4500 in N/A trim.

    They went up in peak HP and torque with the 195 heads, but not much. The big gun 225's were no better than the 165's due to a conservative cam.

    How to build a very streetable monster on a budget just found a bunch of cost savings via *smaller* intake port volume on the heads!


    Another pretty nuts build they dynoed was an 1987 HO roller motor converted to carb with a blow through junkyard boost setup using a powerstroke diesel's turbo! Enginemasters meets road kill.....
    https://youtu.be/6FNDvLPWxoM

    Over 600lbs of torque and 350HP at 3000RPM out of a stock junkyard 302 is pretty sick. Peaked out at 617lbs at 4000, 550HP@5000.

    A bit like pulling the pin on a grenade every time you drop the hammer, but why not drop down to 6-8 psi and let it live a while.

    With either plant, kiss that T5 behind it goodbye if it ever catches traction! Lol
    -- James

    "Trigger" - 86 Mustang GT - Black with red interior. 5.0 T5 built as Z. Original motor ~1/2 million miles. 18 yr daily, 7 a toy
    "Silver" - 85 Mustang Saleen 1985-0006? (Lol) Rare 1E silver / charcoal interior. Mystery. Current project roller, tons of Saleen pedigree

    Also in the stable - 1986 Mustang GT Convertible. Black/Black/Black conversion. 93 leather. VM1 ECU. T5Z

    past foxes -
    1989 Mustang LX Sport 5.0 AOD white/tan black top.
    Wife also had a 1987 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe in the 90's.

    I'm a four eyed pride supporter, are you? Become one today!

  2. #2
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Yep. 600 lbs would eat run-of-the-mill t5's for breakfast lol! I'd like to see what a junkyard 351w would do with that setup. Of course, you would need to upgrade to forged pistons, but that's basically just offsetting the cost of splitting a good 302 lol

  3. #3

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    Check out what they did with a cast piston 350 Chevy and a pro charger.....

    It survived dyno pulls that went over 750HP with ungodly torque. They said adequate ring gap and good fuel and conservative timing is key. Was impressive knowing how cheap the build is.

    I think longevity would be a problem but it might make it through a weekend of thrashing at the track.

  4. #4
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    Just watched the head comparison episode yesterday. Pretty good power! Makes me wonder what the 408 I'm putting in my Fairmont really makes. It's a 408, similar compression and cam specs, same intakes with a 750 Holley, but with World Products Windsor Jr. heads. I guess I'll weigh the car and do some calculations once I have some track numbers next fall.

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I don't believe in the need for that much Low End torque, you just need a power curve to make acceleration.


    However, the 408 Windsor building art is supported by the 3" main bearing 4" stroke 400 Ford crank, and any thing aftermarket cast off that, its sure to survive. It creates such a torque slug, so you can stand a loss of toque down low. That's why Ford over engineered the Canted valve high intake runner volume heads, because they could stand to loose some low end toque as a safety issue...safety for the transmission and operator!

    This is the reason I love the 351M and 400'S. EMC confirms it. A 408 Windsor stroker is what a modern 400 Ford would have become. Ford previwed it in 1975....the Direct injection Windsor 351 block with 400 crank



    The old Top Loader and 4 gears were able to take 429's back in the day, even before a Liberty Cut synchro set.

    I've seen the Supercharged 351C engines do the same thing a proper 408 Windsor now does stock.

    We are now pushing the same issues all the Aussie Supercharged 351c guys had back in 1981 to 1988, with guys like OVAKILL and the two DalAqua XT Falcon GT's with 6/71 Hampten Blowers on Aussie Newby intakes. Also Gary Mayers 302 Windsor 65 Mustang. These guys used blown Clevelands on the street, and the performance they had is now the preseve of a common 351W based stroker. All of them siad an auto is a default choice for that much power.

    The issue back then was was torque, and how to handle it. The Top Loader or anything TopLoader related, is the best stick shift answer. The Super T10 based gearboxes as slower shifting, and pricey.

    Sadest day was when the TopLoader got down graded and outsourced to Tremec as the T170 SROD. Fords unansialble Over Engineered transmission strenght was gone for good.

    Its AOD or 4w70 now if you want stength, and pay at the door.

    Its nice to see the 351W get some cred.

    Dr Matt, you might want a four wheel drive system for your 408 Fairmont. And a Mouse Skin Ruff Porsche style integrated Zero Head Count roll cage....



    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...-cage-irc.html





    https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turb...he-cost-2.html

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    I don't believe in the need for that much Low End torque, you just need a power curve to make acceleration.
    So true. Torque that cannot be put down, simply burns up tires or breaks $hit. More tire and parts sales... hmmm...

    As to the monkeys of road kill/engine masters... the point OF the test was to prove/disprove the myth that too much intake port kills bottom end torque... and what do we get? We get a test, first of all flogging some f-ing motor oil, and then we get dyno results that don't show anything under 2500rpm... Seriously?................... LMFAO!!!

    Same with the indestructible 9 inch rear end, my friend. What we're horrendously missing today is the bulletproof design of the Ford 9 inch (and even the Ford 8 inch) with a supported pinion gear nose. 'Nuff said, corporations are F*CKERS, period, who care NOTHING about you or me, but about THE BOTTOM LINE. Engineering used to be the fast track up the ladder. For a while now, it's been finance. Anybody ever connect those dots and see why things are the way they are now?... Hello?....
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 12-27-2017 at 08:00 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Sing with me Mike.....

    I in love with these times

    Police cars, parking fines...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCWpxz9LUQ




    Ford had to pay for wining LeMans somehow, and it was by downgrading the FE, Lima, Top Loader, FMX, 9 and 8 inch axles, and making the Fox car.

    I don't hate em for that, its just that Fords were the parts you went to.

    The 8.8 is still good, the 7.5 okay, the AOD and 5r55 North South East and West are okay if you read tech manuals and aren't afraid. I know your not afraid of tech, just like you, all my mates had 9 inchers and Ford V8's and FMX's, and along comes the downgraded 3.8's, C5's and 7.5 axles, and its just not your daddies 390 with FMX and 9 inch no more...so you can't beat on it like everyone used to.

    The good thing is people have access to info, and Fords mass production has improved access to better parts. A good 31 spline 8.8 is a stunning axle. A GOOD 4w70 is a great auto, a good 351W is a stunningly good base to build a 408 stroker off. And every truck had a lame ass 351M, W or (down here) a 302c or 351C to raid.

    Strokers and better blocks exist, and life is suddenly peachy again. Iron blocks, non of that Aluminum LS stuff.....

  8. #8

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    Nothing under 2500- yea, I noticed and laughed too.

  9. #9
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Nothing under 2500- yea, I noticed and laughed too.
    Am I missing something here? Who runs under 2500 rpm?

  10. #10
    FEP Supporter Broncojunkie's Avatar
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    Xctasy,

    I hope I can do this without steering too far off course, but since you mentioned the FMX, I've been wanting to run one for years. I keep hearing about how they're junk, stories about them failing, and how there are barely any aftermarket parts for them. Ok, I'll give them that last one, but are they good or not? If they have any particular weak points, are there any mods you can do to correct them? I understand they are also a little heavy, which is what some people complain about, but I've handled them in the past and they really didn't seem that much heavier than a c4. I also understand that they are an efficient transmission, unlike the c6, which is a power hog (not to mention heavy).

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Sing with me Mike.....

    I in love with these times

    Police cars, parking fines...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCWpxz9LUQ




    Ford had to pay for wining LeMans somehow, and it was by downgrading the FE, Lima, Top Loader, FMX, 9 and 8 inch axles, and making the Fox car.

    I don't hate em for that, its just that Fords were the parts you went to.

    The 8.8 is still good, the 7.5 okay, the AOD and 5r55 North South East and West are okay if you read tech manuals and aren't afraid. I know your not afraid of tech, just like you, all my mates had 9 inchers and Ford V8's and FMX's, and along comes the downgraded 3.8's, C5's and 7.5 axles, and its just not your daddies 390 with FMX and 9 inch no more...so you can't beat on it like everyone used to.

    The good thing is people have access to info, and Fords mass production has improved access to better parts. A good 31 spline 8.8 is a stunning axle. A GOOD 4w70 is a great auto, a good 351W is a stunningly good base to build a 408 stroker off. And every truck had a lame ass 351M, W or (down here) a 302c or 351C to raid.

    Strokers and better blocks exist, and life is suddenly peachy again. Iron blocks, non of that Aluminum LS stuff.....
    I love old Fords, because they WERE superior to all else up until about the mid 70's, but I have utter contempt for the corporation and everything it stands for since. ... Enjoying mindlessly the use of your intermittent windshield wipers today? Research the roots of that's beginnings (there's a movie too... the title * escapes me right now), and you'll find out what absolute scumbags the precious corporation is.


    * The movie is Flash of Genius... watch it...

    "Based on the true story of college professor and part-time inventor Robert Kearns' long battle with the U.S. automobile industry, Flash of Genius tells the tale of one man whose fight to receive recognition for his ingenuity would come at a heavy price. But this determined engineer refused to be silenced, and he took on the corporate titans in a battle that nobody thought he could win. The Kearns were a typical 1960s Detroit family, trying to live their version of the American Dream. Local university professor Bob married teacher Phyllis and, by their mid-thirties, had six kids who brought them a hectic but satisfying Midwestern existence. When Bob invents a device that would eventually be used by every car in the world, the Kearns think they have struck gold. But their aspirations are dashed after the auto giants who embraced Bob's creation unceremoniously shunned the man who invented it. Ignored, threatened and then buried in years of litigation, Bob is haunted by what was done to ..."
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 12-27-2017 at 09:55 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broncojunkie View Post
    Xctasy,

    I hope I can do this without steering too far off course, but since you mentioned the FMX, I've been wanting to run one for years. I keep hearing about how they're junk, stories about them failing, and how there are barely any aftermarket parts for them. Ok, I'll give them that last one, but are they good or not? If they have any particular weak points, are there any mods you can do to correct them? I understand they are also a little heavy, which is what some people complain about, but I've handled them in the past and they really didn't seem that much heavier than a c4. I also understand that they are an efficient transmission, unlike the c6, which is a power hog (not to mention heavy).
    The FMX is the epitome of cast iron (so yes, a tad heavier) case bulletproof automatic transmission. I dragged one out of a field, where it and a 302 sat in a '72 Mustang Grande for 10+ years... cleaned out all the grey (water) goop inside it, replaced the filter, adjusted it's bands, put it back together and refilled it with good ole Type F while breaking in the Ford Motorsport A312 camshaft in the rebuilt 302 with it's home ported heads. I never had a kick-down rod in my '80 Capri, so I fully manually shifted it for years and many miles and many 6500rpm trips up through each gear, and it kept on tickin' and performed flawlessly. Pretty much unbreakable, like other good old Ford stuff. Bottom line, adjust the bands and replace the filter and add new Type F fluid, and a shift kit would be icing on the cake.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible 3.8L ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar 3.8L LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird 5.0L ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan 200-6
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT (390ci 4spd)
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang Fastback
    1974 Pontiac Luxury LeMans

  13. #13
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    xtasy

    Yeah, mine is getting a chrome molly 8 point cage among other things this winter. Not going to need 4WD as it's going to be carrying the fronts a ways down the track eventually. Plan to use the current 2" receiver hitch as a parachute mount.

    After all, my Fairmont is taking over track duty from my current DD that makes about 750 HP and over 900#ft of torque. Current car is just too heavy and with 2.65:1 gears it takes a whole 2.35 seconds to get to 60 mph. Fairmont is not going to be such a slug.
    Last edited by Dr. Matt; 12-27-2017 at 10:11 PM.

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Yep, my best freind keeps on telling me about how good your Benz is. He has two, (only i4 and v6's thou'...) and occasionally lets me drive them. Its a later day 6.9 450SEL with M-U-C-H bigger Stainless Steel B@||s....

    In 1968, Bullitt's S code 335 hp 390 cubic-inch V-8 introduced big-block performance to the Mustang GT. Standard transmission was a three-speed Toploader, a four-speed Toploader and a C-6 automatic were options. The GTA bought Cruise-O-Matic ease and realibity to the Mustang. The replacement for the fabled 390 became the 351 small block, in Windsor or Cleveland form. Its taken years for Ford small blocks to gain the smae latent strength the 390 had, it was surely Fords toughest Big Block....and gearboxes and axles were sure downgraded after the FT engine got ditched in the F trucks in 1977.

    The 165 pound FMX was the fastest gear shifting automatic for many years, and came with parts based on the ages old Ford designpurchase of the Detriot Gear and Borg Warner Model 8 and 12, same as Maserati used for years on its 4.2/4.7/4.9 liter Quad Cam V8's in Quattroportes, Ghiblis, Indy's, Khamsins. Its not a drag racing gearbox and won't like a modified engine with more than 380 lb-ft, but it'll cope with anything the best 351C or basic 390 can throw at it.

    My mate at Macraes Mine had a 1969 Windsor powered Falcon GT351 with an FMX, the M code 290 hp engine, one option back from the big stick Phase 1 GTHO engine with 390 FE Holley 600 and the Shelby alloy intake and cammed up version. Anyway, it was being thrashed, and it blew up one day due to a stone taking out an oil cooler line on a long high speed backroad blast in the back roads of the Hakatermea valley returning from duck shooting season. There was ATF all over, smoke from the trans and dual pipes, and the Bulldozer operator who drove it was sure it was absolute toast. But he got a bolt and de activated the cooler, and then got it back home for his mechanic to fix it. Despite being emptied at almost 100 mph, all it needed was a top up with 7 liters or 47 dollars of ATF, and it was just fine. No seal damage, no problems. That is typical of the later ones behind any 351 Winsdor or Cleveland. But there are many earlier FMX's, and some just don't like the gruff and bash of a good small or big block. The C4 is more reliable rebuilt because a lot more really good parts exist, especially if Torington roller bearings are added. There is no aftermarket stuff for FMX's and related Borg Warner 8's, 10's and 12's wich were used behind pre 1976 V12 Jags.

    Ford opted out of replacement automatic transmissions to other car makes, and tended only to sold whole engines to the European Supercar set. GM sold THM 400's to the Poms for later 5.3 liter V12 XJ-S's and XJ-12's and also all the 413 cubic inch Rolls Royces. Ford failed to follow the Green Back on transmission sales over seas, but it sold plenty of gearboxes to AMC and preferred to help out its neigbours, not the overseass crowd. The Aussies took it till 1983 behind some 351c's, but the trucks got the C6. In the USA, 1981, that's when the FMX died out, the AOD was its direct decendant, and its got the same strength as its internals were frozen from an old FMX design, but its one pice alloy case, and has got the weird as bat crap three element torque converter lockup that requires a great 300-m steel shaft to correct.

    Ford shell molding thin wall small blocks in the 5.0/5.8 and 6.6 liter sizes weren't perfected when they got rolled out from 1969 to 1971 in the Cleveland and Windsor and Mexican plants. The later blocks had some dopey downgrades in other areas, but the bore quality and thickness improved a little over the years. The 1993-1997 era, it reverted back to grey slurry hap-hazardness again, but a quick 20 or 30 thou over bore and plateau hone with nice pistons and suitable rings and clearance, any stroked 351w makes a 408 stroker block hard to break.

    Again, Ford backed off on any fortification of the 351W for countless years.

    Exception were

    1. the 1980 and 1981 HO 2-BBL in the LTD/ Crown Vic and Grand Marquis,

    2. the 1983-1987 HO 4BBL 5.8 truck,

    3. the 210 hp EFi 5.8 F truck

    4. the 240 hp 1993 to whatever 1996 351 Lightening,

    5. then the 371 hp Edlebrock or TFS headed Lightening based 1994-1998 Saleen S351 Mustang and its Supercharged OBDII 480-495 hp version

    6. the 100% production 300 hp 1995 Mustang SVT 351 R.

    A good 408 stroker is a Supercharged 95-98 S351 Saleen smacker for a fraction of the cost.

    The advantage is that any 351W is a better candidate for a 4" stroker with the alloy heads and other stuff around for it. About time too.

    Dag one out of a field in a forlorn 351W F truck, it'll be seasoned to perfection, and it'll normally take a rebuild a lot better than any other 351 engine

  15. #15

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    I don't think the good old days were limited to Ford. My first exposure to V-8 cackle was my brother (5 yrs older) getting the 70 Maverick that had been bought brand new and passed thru the family with it's wonderful 170 6 and 3 on the tree. At one point it was so worn out my dad put a 200 6 in it. When my brother turned 16 he got it and one day when dad was at work, he and a friend went to the jy and got a 289 and stuck in it. But then he got a 69 Chevelle drag car with a 350 in it, a front engine dragster with that 350 in it, a 72 GS Stage 1 that might be the baddest stockish car I have ever ridden in. It's right up there with his friend's 68 GT500 428 4 speed. When I was in my early 20's my brother convinced me (wasn't hard) to put a 455 Buick in my 83 Regal which just 2 years later was a back halved race car with a methanol injected 455 in it.
    So I love my Mustang, but I like all cars. The crap they roll out on Roadkill is some of my favorite stuff. Old roached stuff you just stick a good engine and tranny (sometimes) in, just to road trip.

    But my brother and I, probably drunk as hell, got a TH400 out of the JY, bought a $240 Napa Master rebuild kit, a Daaco $60 converter and probably put 600 1/8 mile passes and I don't know if we ever checked the fluid. The we put a brake on it and did nothing to the tranny but add a smaller converter. That POS tranny never complained and with a 4.88 gear that 3800 pound boat cut 1.32 60'. Talk about 60s (or 50s) engineering. Look at all the non GM applications for TH400. They are too, almost indestructible.

    I know people say I have Chevy or I hate Ford or GM Sux, but I just like cars. Nothing like the sound of a V-8. And like I tell my son, don't laugh if a dude pulls up in a Camaro and pops the hood and there's in IH 345 in it. If he has enough money it will run better than most anything else. The only downfall to not LOVING a Chevy is everything costs more, but isn't impossible to do.
    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

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