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  1. #1

    Question Modifications to fit 1986-1993 Water Pump on a 1985 5.0 ?

    From what I gather (for availability reasons mainly I guess) people put 1986-1993 water pumps on earlier 5.0L engines (in my case a 1985 4V) but I often see "will fit previous years but some modifications are required".

    I'm only looking at Ford Performance/Ford Racing brand water pumps and (as usual) they only offer them for 1986 and later.

    What specific modifications need to be done? Would I need a new timing cover also?

    Would appreciate any insight & thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    In my experience the issue is that for whatever reason most of the aftermarket forgets that the Mustang didn't start with the 86 EFI 5.0 in regards to the Fox Era. The 79-85 Mustang use the same front timing cover with the exception of the mechanical fuel pump as the 86-93 cars. They also use the same basic serpentine belt setup. I have used a 86-93 pump on many earlier cars with no issues. That is in regards to standard parts store replacement pumps.

    In regards to aftermarket pumps such as Ford Racing, Edelbrock, Stewart Components, etc. They are often a "beefier" casting and sometimes that can cause clearance issues with things such as Harmonic balancers, etc. I just had to lightly clearance my Edelbrock pump on my 331 stroker because it was too close to the balancer for my preference. Just a slight shave with a grinder and I have plenty of clearance. Also many of the aftermarket performance pumps don't have the pressed in metal tubes for the heater core and the bypass line. They will have threaded holes and use brass fittings. Not a big deal, but sometimes that will require tweaks to the hoses for best fit.

    Personally I highly recommend the Stewart Components line of products. I have used them on several vehicles and they have always been quality. They have several stages of High Flow Water Pumps, generally for most street cars the Stage one is fine and is not priced outrageously IMHO. I am running the Edelbrock right now because I have had it sitting on the shelf for many years and decided it was time. I used one in the past with no issues, so I am sure it will work better than most stock pumps. Good Luck!

    https://www.stewartcomponents.com/in...product_id=134
    Last edited by wraithracing; 08-23-2019 at 10:42 AM.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  3. #3

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    Trey Wraith thank you for taking the time to write.

    Warning: "Rant Alert"
    It's true - hardly any company bothers with providing much for 1979-1985 parts. Then (as some '85 owners are acutely aware of) 1985 is a oddball year in some areas. It really gets me bugged about the vendors not making (relatively few) parts for pre-1986 cars. It's personally has caused me a lot of extra grief & confusion over the years.

    And the usual all-purpose excuse from most vendors time and time again is that "there aren't enough of those cars on the road to justify any parts production for them" and it's "purely a financial decision". (this is what I've been told repeatedly when I've written to countless companies asking for them to reproduce more parts for the early Fox cars). YET these same vendors - in their ads & on their websites & Youtube videos ETC - ceaselessly promote themselves that "we're extreme Fox enthusiast guys too!" and "we're all about Fox Body Mustang" and "we're the number 1 source for all your Fox needs" etc etc ETC.

    So no NOT REALLY and it's mainly all about profit only. These companies could do the hobby a huge favor & service and make early Fox parts at or even slightly below production cost, to keep more of these early cars on the road & in tip top shape. This could easily be done by taking a small margin from the higher volume higher profit parts (the ones that DO sell quite well) and applying it to produce higher demand 79-85 Mustang Capri parts. It would truly show their commitment to the cars & hobby & buyers and bring in more multiple-item orders. I know it would be unrealistic of me to think this I suppose.

    End of Rant


    I was asking about the 86-93 water pump retrofitting & modification requirements because I'm thinking of doing this on my '85 GPIV Capri. And because it's a bit in the collector car realm - my line of thinking (in regards to upgrade/performance parts) is that I really want to stick with ONLY "Ford" branded parts (Ford Motorsport - Ford Racing Ford Performance - etc. I heavily resto-modded my other 85 Capri already with tons of various-brand aftermarket performance parts - but don't want to do that to this particular car. So I'm looking hard at the later version 86-93 Ford brand performance water pumps and wondered exactly what they mean that "some modifications" would be required. I did notice the threaded pipe nipples etc and that's not a problem but was wondering what else I'd run into or have to change and if it'd be worth it or not?

  4. #4
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    I don't believe you will have to do much in regards to modifications to a stock replacement style pump even from Ford Racing. Worse case, I would order a Ford Racing pump via Amazon if possible. Then compare it to your current setup. If there are major issues or modifications you just don't want to make, then you should be able to return it thru Amazon no questions asked. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  5. #5

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    I'm not 100% certain as its been 7 years ago now, but I believe I installed the later waterpump on the 347 I built. It bolted right on without modifying anything. From my understanding the only change was to the impeller design.

    I feel your pain on finding "oddball" parts.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (Stock Block, Scat Crank & Rods, Probe Pistons, 11:1 CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, Strut Tower Brace, K-Member Brace, Bilstein HD Struts/Shocks, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  6. #6

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    Rant on

    Not building parts for older vehicles with very few of them on the road, because you will lose money is not an excuse. It is a 100% valid reason.

    As cars get older, they end up with two different owner groups. One is the person that just uses it as a transportation device and wants repair parts to be as cheap as possible. They expect and demand that the water pump for the car cost no more than $13. Anything more than that and they cry bloody murder. "For bleeps sake, why would I spend $50 on a water pump, the car is only worth $500" Here's a news flash, the cost to manufacture that water pump has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how much your car has depreciated in value over the years. The second main owner group are the people on this BBS who have some reason to keep the car running because they enjoy it. This is a very small percentage of the the small number of these cars that exist.

    It doesn't make sense for a company to spend time designing parts for a car which will have 1/10 of the sales. The time required to do this is the same or more than doing it for a part that will be high volume. The problem is that the opportunity cost is too high to do the low volume part. We could spend the same time and sell 10x the number of high volume parts. If we did the low volume part and charged more money for it to make up for the lost profit, the price would be so high that sales would be zero. I tried exactly this thing on this BBS with performance struts for 10" brake spindles. No one wanted to pay what it was going to cost to build them, and this was from the group of people that want to keep the car driving and will pay more for them!!!

    Rant off.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  7. #7

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    Hey I appreciate the replies. I'm looking at a pair of (discontinued NOS) Ford Performance/Racing/Motorsport pumps (one high-flow w/bearings and the other stock-flow standard shaft) and need to make a timely decision. And I can't return either of them if I find it ends up requiring more modification(s) than I'm willing/wanting to do. I just didn't want to buy either of them blindly and have a whole lot of clearance issues & grinding. I wouldn't mind buying a matching timing cover if it was required but wondered (and still do!) what anyone had to do to make 86-93 pumps fit on a 1985. Thanks to those who wrote in and to anyone who'd still be willing to share what exactly was needed to be modified. Maybe I could write to Ford Performance and ask I suppose.


    ****************
    Rant Section

    Hi Jack Hidley ok so you answered & commented on my rant. I'm definitely not lost on the economics and the "bean counters" in the run-of-the-mill replacement parts industry. I get it, I know. Corporate costs & corporate profit mentality & corporate greed. But I'm not talking about "parts counter" parts. And not cheapskates and "keep her on the road" parts either.

    However what I am/was talking about - when it comes to certain collector/enthusiast niche hobbies (such as classic cars in this instance) there's a slower long-term demand for many of these obsolete/discontinued parts. It's a longer term & broader investment. That's what the "restoration industry" is about. And they're often priced accordingly. A reproduction part keeps the vehicle in continued circulation and creates a perpetual demand for even more orders for the car.

    For instance, I'm very thankful to companies like "Dennis Carpenter" and "Year One" ETC. Without companies like them, it would be next-to-impossible to keep collectable cars on the road and at the car show circuit. And when these cars ARE still around - it translates to even more purchases. And more car shows. And MORE purchases -ad infinitum. It's a long-term investment in the collector car parts sales departments AND the niche markets as a whole.

    Here's one (I think a good one) example - MARCHAL : a few months ago I wrote to the company that actually owns the rights to "Marchal" fog & driving lamps. I tried to petition them to offer us replacement lamp covers for them. They wrote back saying they "had no idea how many of those cars (that they were made for) were still on the road" and again it was "purely a financial decision". Would they sell "millions" of them? No. But a limited-run would indeed absolutely sell. I suggested that they partner perhaps with Late Model Restoration or Fox Mustang Restoration or CJ Pony who might distribute & sell these covers to us to buy. Perhaps one of those companies would actually sponsor a run of them and offer them exclusively.


    I also told them the Marchal covers would fit at least the following vehicles - many of which have their own enthusiast followings:

    1983-1986 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
    1979 Mustang Pace Car
    1982 Mustang GT
    1983-1986 Mercury Capri
    1984-1986 Mustang GT
    1984-1992 Lincoln Mark VII LSC
    1984-1986 Mustang SVO
    Ford Escort EXP
    Ford Escort GT
    1978-1979 Ford F150/F250/F350
    Jeep Cherokee
    GM (Aftermarket Accessory Kit)
    ** (I could be a little off on exact years and I actually might've missed a few models too) **


    NOS Marchal fog/driving lamp covers consistently sell very well on auction sites like eBay. The covers are relatively scarce and owners WILL buy them, and usually at a premium.

    Marchal covers also relatively fragile and easy to have broken or lost down the road or stolen or torn off at the car wash - ETC. I doubt I'm alone in thinking long-term they'd consistently sell well as long as they were at least affordable and could beat the high costs of buying them NOS.

    For Ford Lincoln Mercury cars I count 5x variations of the Marchal covers (various colors + logos) but the stamped plastic part are exactly the same. I think they would sell and would be great for fellow Fox enthusiasts. And I'm sure others would disagree and side with that company. So it's (often high-priced) NOS or nothing at all I guess. This same principle could be applied to probably at least a few dozen other parts for 1979-1985 Fox cars. Anyway I think at least some of you get the point I'm making and that I'm not being totally naive

  8. #8
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    In regards to the front covers, I have never had to modify a cover to make a later model water pump fit at least the 82-85 Mustangs. In my experience most of the front end stuff for the 85 and 86 are interchangeable. In regards to the aftermarket pumps, I doubt you will have many issues or modifications required if they are listed as fitting the 86-93 cars. I would say go for it, if that is what you want.

    In regards to the part reproduction rant, I get both sides of the argument and completely. Many years ago Jim Whelan and myself looked into reproducing the SVO 85.5/86 headlights before Daniel Carpenter started. At the time the owner of the molds wasn't willing to sell. We looked into having new molds made and bottom line there was NO WAY we would ever recoup our investment much less make any $$ off them in the long run. Obviously starting with the original molds would change the whole economics, but at the time again the owner was unwilling to consider it.

    The other issue I have noticed with many Fox owners is that for lack of a better term most are "cheap" or bargain shoppers. I am one of them in many ways so I am calling myself out too. Just look at the discussions concerning the body side moldings for the 79-84 cars. Owners have been begging for these for years and when they finally arrive many wanted to do nothing but bitch about the @$350 cost for the set. When compared to other "collectible cars" this price is extremely reasonable, but still many just simply will not pay it even though it can make all the difference in the world when restoring or just repainting a vehicle. Unfortunately this attitude and buying pattern is something that any vendor has to consider when deciding on reproducing parts for the Fox body vehicles.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
    1969 Mach 1
    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
    1984 SVO Still Waiting Restoration
    1986 GT Under going Wide Body Conversion Currently

    Current Capris:
    1981 Capri Roller
    1981 Capri Black Magic Roller Basket Case
    1982 Capri RS 5.0/4spd T-top Full Restoration Stalled in TX
    1984 Capri RS T-top Roller
    1983-84 Gloy Racing Trans Am/IMSA Body Parts

  9. #9
    FEP Senior Member droopie85gt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    The other issue I have noticed with many Fox owners is that for lack of a better term most are "cheap" or bargain shoppers.
    Hey Mister, don't call me names! Unfortunately, more of us are like Roadkill than Chip Foose. We love our cars, but life, family etc, keep a damper on how much we can spend. So we (or maybe just me) spend hours scouring the for sale section here, on Corral, Craigslist, FB Marketplace, etc to find a super cheap deal. We can hide...er manage the expense not to arouse spousal suspicion. We get to continue sleeping inside the house, AND pickup cheap parts for our toys.

    In the example of the $350 side moldings...I could get that, or I could find a decent used set and refurb it myself for maybe $150 and spend the other $200 on a cam or intake (used of course).

    It's funny how the whole macroeconomic thing works. We WANT more jobs in the US, but especially for car parts, we don't WANT to pay what they would cost. We WILL pay what they cost to make overseas and ship here. That's just the reality of other countries that can establish first class manufacturing with a labor force that only makes a couple hundred dollars per month.
    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  10. #10

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    Ain't that right...I saved my Fox from a junkyard and used another junkyard car to get it up and running.It ain't fast but, it runs and got lots of eyeballs as a survivor, among all the show cars Name:  IMAG1430.jpg
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    Last edited by 4eyedblind; 08-24-2019 at 04:49 PM.

  11. #11

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    Hi everyone sorry about the delay, I had a bunch of yard work to do the past few days - ended up hurting my back again & can barely walk plus tore up my left eye pretty bad with "high speed dirt" from weedwhacking - so have been in bad shape overall and haven't been able to look at a computer screen for very long with serious eye pain.

    Ok I really appreciate the replies & suggestions but I guess I'm going to hold-off on doing this. I was looking at a Ford Performance M-8501-B50 ballbearing water pump. Doing a little research - the Ford M-8501-B50 is a Edelbrock 8840 water pump OEM-made by Edelbrock for Ford. It's about $230 shipped so is why I wanted to ask about it first.

    One vendor says they've installed them on earlier 5.0L engines no problem. The other vendor seems to remember having to grind/file the bottom of the pump to clear the damper/balancer and some of the brackets and/or pulleys needed to be shimmed.

    Since apparently it is in fact a Ford-branded Edelbrock 8840 - I wrote to Edelbrock asking about what the vendors described and they said "no" it will absolutely not fit earlier 5.0's correctly and they said listed it 1986-1993 for good reason and if it fit earlier years they certainly would've promoted it so.

    I have about $15K into this car (and I'm by NO means a rich man) and have gone way out-of-my-way with time & expense to keep it all-Ford with any upgrade goodies etc (and have been saving any original parts too). I liked the pump not only because it looked heavy-duty but also because it was cast "Ford Motorsport" too which would've matched the overall theme of my car really nicely.

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