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  1. #1

    Default 302 rebuild options for CFI

    I know I know... but I want to keep the CFI (for a little while at least).

    So the engine is coming out and heading to Stapelton Engines for a rebuild and improvement. They are a race engine builder.

    My question to guys like Jacook xctasy and the others that seem to know ungodly amounts of information on these cfi engines:

    What can I get away with knowing that a new sniper or something is probably in my future. They are going to boost the compression with new pistons and cutting the block down a little. A mild cam will go in. The heads are really making me wonder though. I have those hooker shorty equal headers on it and I want to keep them. If I get aftermarket heade will I have a problem with the headers? Will aftermarket heads make the CFI lose its mind? This has a edelbrock 3721 intake on it.

    Cleaning up the original heads and popping them back on seems like it might be a mistake though.

    If I can fit new heads will the car run or will the CFI give up? I know it won't be giving me everything I should out of the engine but that can come later.

    Currently the engine is running really well. Just awesome in fact. I just wish the oil were not filling with metal dust from bearings.
    Last edited by emerygt350; 12-04-2017 at 09:07 PM.

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The info I've gotten on this has been exclusively from people who have owned and reworked the cams, heads and exhausts around the CFi ho 5.0. They've stuck with it, and report Actual Real Results and Outcomes.

    The depth of experience with the HO CFi is huge, but it will always be considered a dead end development. EECIV Port injection is just so good.

    The 800 dollar custom mapping cost plus expenses is the break fee for making an 84 or 85 HO 5.0 auto a brilliant Port EFi like top end performer. The CFi HO has got its off idle to 4500 rpm bartone zone covered off.

    The old Delco P4 2-bbl TBi you find in GM products has more back up than the Ford HO CFi because of the way the Port EFi took all the development work away from the CFi.



    Due to the kind of injectors, a lack of ISC, and a lack of resolution in the computer, as the modifications are added, the HO CFi quickly becomes limited.

    Port EFi is the next 100% factory step, as the CFi HO.

    Your 95% of the way to Port EFi right now.


    1. doesn't have an ISC/IAC control loop.

    2. It does have an temperature based idle control.

    Shooting the breeze, you can get a similar looking computer to sit inside the EECIV, the Megasquirt2.

    Or, by spending about 800 bucks, taking a later D9S or A9P box code computer, you can have Moates rework it as a custom instillation, to run CFi. You'd add the 3.8 ISC, you could remap the HO CFi EECIV, and get it idling with the better heads. That D9S has a Vehicle Speed Sensor to kick the idle up if information is lost, and all the later box codes have real time live data.

    The Ford HO CFi is more than just a little bit disadvantaged. Since its idle control without ISC is soley using Throttle Postion Sensor, MAP sensor, and ignition tip in, and there isn't the resolution in the stock earlier box code HO CFi computer to react to much more cam than the G code 165 351W 1980 cam, which was hotter than the 85 Roller cam spec.

    The Speed Density control limits peak cfm at the head to about 145 cfm at 25"H20. Going to GT40P heads and a stouter than stock Torino 73 351w cam will screw the air fuel delivery and idle, but how much depends on the other exhaust and header mods you've done.

    The gains on porting a set of E7 heads, same deal. Go too far, and it'll have idle and soggy off line performance and an occasional idle tracking problem you won't be able to resolve. The Speed Density 5.0 HO CFi is very like the 4.9 Port EFi truck six....if you start to do traditional air flow improvments by cam up grade, injector size increase, or strapping on better breathing head(s), you then have all the typical idle and soggy response issues.

    I've been around the F150 truck squad a long time, and no one has fixed mapping the stock box code Speed Density computers because the low hanging fruit is a Megasquirt 2, or a 351 or 460 EFi engine swap....

    In Australia and New Zealand, the answers for CFi upgrades were Mutliple Port EFi, and then you could go nuts on a TI industies computer upgrade, and hammer the living crap ou of it.

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    bfm347's 4-bbl Port EFI 351W http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...swap-queations


    and Pancakeshake's 351W both use 4-bbl intakes drilled for EFi. EFi, Edlebrock 3848 elbow on single plane 4bbl intake

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ri-Turbo-Build


    This was how it was done back in 1988 in Australia too, using Hedley, Chris and Phil McGee's 4-BBL Holley base EFi unit in the 5.8 liter Cleveland "HO 2 GO" Street Machine project car.

    McGee Racing Cams are based in the USA now, http://www.mcgeeracing.com/fabrication

    and don't make it anymore, but the idea is the same.





    There is a better than Edlebrock 3848 elbow to hide everything under an air cleaner, but its looking more like Fittech and Holley Sniper throttle body EFI.

    I like EECIV, Port EFi. I'd go the next step up, and not look back....

  4. #4

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    VBy soggy do you mean useless or just not what you would really want? Will the thing idle and drive and just not perform like a person would hope or is it just a no go? Rolling in a new injection system into the rebuild is more than I wanted to put out at the moment and I also have an AOD to think about with that damn TV pressure.

  5. #5

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    That four door mustang makes my eyes twitch. Ouch.

  6. #6

  7. #7

    Default

    Yeah, that kind of answers it... I am going to have to think about how to do this so that I am impressed with the outcome. I think if I stick with the stock heads and up the compression with a mild cam the CFI should be fine but it seems like modifying the heads will probably be the end of it.

  8. #8

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    I would rather spend that efi/head money on new gears in the rear and perhaps that might make more impact anyway.

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    I would rather spend that efi/head money on new gears in the rear and perhaps that might make more impact anyway.

    Option 1: Crash avoidance by ensuring your total volumetric efficiency stays below the raggard edge. This still has a mild upper horsepower limit, but the low end won't beuppset at all with high flow heads.

    Check for Box code GJ1 or VJ1 on your ECU.

    This is a suggestion only, I've not done it.

    IMHO, The best option is to find an exhaust you like, and use the standard Explorer/Mountaineer low lift roller cam and put in some GT40P heads. That is basically the 2-bbl 351m/400 cam profile something Ford spent a bunch of time getting right for engines with very high cylinder head flow rates, as all 2V open Chamber Cleveland based 351m and 400 heads had.

    Very big valve curtain area,
    very aggressive 1.73 rockers,
    and good CFM figures, but

    very poor compression, down to 7.8:1 on most engines, despite what was reported.

    This allows you to get some 1.7:1 plain or roller rockers. What you do with the EGR and Secondary Air, you'll have to decide, but that combination should allow the use of very good head cfm without over cooking the idle, or hurting the bottom and mid range torque. Intake, you can use anything as long as it has the 1985 tin spacer with the flow dams. The high end power will be maintained with the valve lift increase of the 1.7 ratio lifters, and the CFM of the heads. This is a tradeoff between metering a CFi system, and not over cooking the volumetric efficency down low. You'll keep the low end torque, and gain just a little extra power without over cooking the air fuel corrections.


    As soon as you use GT40 or GT40P's with any of the later roller cams, the EECIV starts to play up. Even E7 heads reworked. The E6 Mustang heads are very high swirl, with a lot of mixture motion, and should be okay, although pinking is likely due to compression ratio hike.

    Be prepared to back track, but junkyard roller cam Explorers with GT40P heads are exceptionally docile engines, even with the Port Sequential EFi removed.

    I'd not normally ever go back on cam specs, but if you want to use what you have, the GT40P headed Explorer/Mountaineerengines aren't high compression, the chambers are big, the cam very mild, and I can't see the CFi being upset.

    Option 2.
    sailorbob at EEC»

    https://eectuning.org/forums/viewtop...6e77216232e28e
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorbob at EEC»
    Tue May 13, 2014 5:19 pm
    Just find a GUF* or GURE ecu and set the appropriate parameters for single channel CFI mode. These strategies support it.
    1988 LSC VII GU** / D9S....its Speed Density, and its been mapped, and they have a ECU letter and some sub code Bin definition

    You'll have to use an ISC/IAB to control the idle. I think you could do this easier than working around the engine tune limits. Then you can go nuts on the tune. Quarterhorse and a Binary Editor and the follow up from the guys from EEC.org will get you where you want to go.

    Don't be affraid of this stuff. Know the limits, and realise that EFi is a support community of rampant, die hard performance freeks who know how to remap an ECU, and help you.

    I'm personally an EECIV guy, I like it, and that's not to say its better than Megasquirt, but it is more standard, and the protocols are easily worked around.

  10. #10

    Default

    Are you suggesting I replace my EEC with the LSC version from 88? I have found one for cheap (E-7SF-12A-650-XD). Will that fix the problem or is that just an easier EEC to tune? I looked at that eectuning site, wow. I never knew...

    I am really wondering about this now.

    I just dropped the car off for the motor rebuild and I think I have a plan.

    1) The shop will increase the compression with new pistons, over bore, shave the block.
    2) Clean up the stock heads, maybe touch up the exhaust ports and shave a little if possible.
    3) If possible drop in a comp cam 31-255-5 (assuming that has the 351 firing order)

    At this point, drop it back in and see how the CFI handles it. If it is leaning out, try the fuel pressure adjusting trick.
    If that doesn't help, I am really getting curious about swapping in a later model eeciv computer from an engine that probably breathed more like mine will. Shorty headers, slightly better cam, slightly better intake, slightly better heads sounds a tone like what an 88 302 would be in comparison to my stock 84.

    Would putting in the 88 EEC from an 88 with speed density maybe fix my mapping?

    I am also curious if a Bama 4-bank elminator might work with the CFI as well as the SEFI. The company says they do not do CFI but I wonder if that is just because there is no market and nobody has tried.


    Right now, idle, mixture, everything seems golden with the headers and intake (and with the bearing dust, even the oil is golden).
    Last edited by emerygt350; 12-06-2017 at 09:24 AM.

  11. #11

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    Emery, have been around these CFI 5.0 engines for a little bit . . . you can substitute the E7 heads from a 1987-1995 Mustang 5.0, and a stock Mustang roller cam (1989 version known to work) and have a freeer flowing exhaust. That's about it before needing to tune the EEC, and even with that you may have to bump the fuel pressure up a bit (so far as I know the CFI EEC can only adapt its fuel flow over a +/- 10% range).

    There are several examples over the years of folks swapping complete 87-90 or so spec Mustang 5.0 longblocks and have them run successfully with the CFI.
    1985 LTD LX original owner

  12. #12

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    Thanks Zak,
    It is looking like finding a set of early GT40s is going to be impossible or really expensive and E7s are not particularly cheap either. I am going to talk with the shop working on the engine and see what they think about E7s. It won't cost more or less for the work to be done on the original D8s or the E7s so it is only the unknown quality of the used E7 and the cost of purchase I need to consider. I like the fact that the E7s will just bolt up without worry (thermactor etc). Just not sure if the slightly smaller combustion chamber is worth that.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    Thanks Zak,
    It is looking like finding a set of early GT40s is going to be impossible or really expensive and E7s are not particularly cheap either. I am going to talk with the shop working on the engine and see what they think about E7s. It won't cost more or less for the work to be done on the original D8s or the E7s so it is only the unknown quality of the used E7 and the cost of purchase I need to consider. I like the fact that the E7s will just bolt up without worry (thermactor etc). Just not sure if the slightly smaller combustion chamber is worth that.
    You can probably find a set of gt40s at a junkyard or someone on Craigslist parting an explorer and just pickup the whole motor for relatively cheap. I paid $250 for my mine and they pulled it for me


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    We just had a member sell a set of reworked gt40p heads, roller rockers, ford racing headers and pushrods for $350. If I go aluminum this winter, I'll probably sell my gt40p's for $200 with the correct valve springs already installed. They are out there, and cheap.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerygt350 View Post
    Are you suggesting I replace my EEC with the LSC version from 88? I have found one for cheap (E-7SF-12A-650-XD). Will that fix the problem or is that just an easier EEC to tune? I looked at that eectuning site, wow. I never knew...

    I am really wondering about this now.

    I just dropped the car off for the motor rebuild and I think I have a plan.

    1) The shop will increase the compression with new pistons, over bore, shave the block.
    2) Clean up the stock heads, maybe touch up the exhaust ports and shave a little if possible.
    3) If possible drop in a comp cam 31-255-5 (assuming that has the 351 firing order)

    At this point, drop it back in and see how the CFI handles it. If it is leaning out, try the fuel pressure adjusting trick.
    If that doesn't help, I am really getting curious about swapping in a later model eeciv computer from an engine that probably breathed more like mine will. Shorty headers, slightly better cam, slightly better intake, slightly better heads sounds a tone like what an 88 302 would be in comparison to my stock 84.

    Would putting in the 88 EEC from an 88 with speed density maybe fix my mapping?

    I am also curious if a Bama 4-bank elminator might work with the CFI as well as the SEFI. The company says they do not do CFI but I wonder if that is just because there is no market and nobody has tried.


    Right now, idle, mixture, everything seems golden with the headers and intake (and with the bearing dust, even the oil is golden).
    Version of Megasquirt2 supports CFi, and the backup is very big from DIYTune, and the MS community would do it for you in a heartbeat.

    CFi via later version of a SD EECIV port EFI, or even Batch fire 5.0/5.8 truck EECIV, it does allow a reprogrammed Speed Density computer to be reprogrammed only in the quartants needed. EECIV is a shot gun splatter of divested, hidden nest File Allocation Table loops, that are very smart, but a little bit too complex for the average Joe ot easily "hook into". I suggested D9S because it allows ISC and VSS to be used to spike or tip in the low speed idle issues typical of Speed Density cars with big cams. Ford used the Distrovac to spike igntion in 1969, and so a VSS is the same technolgy, and its known to work therough a standadrd Variable Relcutor speed sensor that every Fox Ford has, so its a dead easy inclusion without "wheel reinventing".

    TI in Australia does this all the time with the early In line six Speed Density 221 hp XR6 engines, potentially bitchy to rework, but once you've got the Bin code, the J3 port and a binary scaned and edited ECU, you are in business. A whole industry of EECIV modifications started in Australia because of this very Speed Density and CFi related issues. Again, if the Aussie guys had F150 4.9 port EFi trucks, they'd be 350 hp with 36 pound injectors and wild cams. Its an Aussie thing to figure out what you change to make an upgrade work.

    Meantime, the same Speed Density EECIV questions get asked 600 times a year, and no one does anything....Except Megasquirt, who make a sale each time the issue of EECIV mods on CFi comes up. The answers are 100 % American, but no one persues it any further.

    The low hanging fruit in USA is the key thing...CFi requires a more SoCal Hot Rodder, mentality. Or a slighly foreign, oddball, back door approach.

    That is, you have to do a SWOT anaylsis, and see how the heck you can move forward without reinventing the wheel.


  16. #16

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    Yeah, Xctasy, I am just a little shocked at the price involved even with Megasquirt setups. I have read a whole bunch of the more accessible stuff over on that eectuning forum. tmoss has some pretty useful stuff up there and a couple of articles referencing people that had accomplished quite a bit with speed density and even a cfi.

    I just found a set of re-manufactured gt40s for 228 a pop. 12 month warranty 12,000 miles, free roundtrip shipping. Through gear heads engines. I see a mixed bag of reviews online but that is all for the full engines (atk?) and a remaned head is quite a bit different than a full crate engine. I have been scouring ebay and craigslist but all I run into is pretty much poop on a stick for 450 dollars + shipping, and on craigs there isn't much there and what is there is tired and doesn't inspire confidence. This is what they are selling: Name:  atk2fx2-6.jpg
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  17. #17

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    Just ordered them, should show up by the end of the week. I will post the engine builders opinion on the reman quality. Also settled on a XE-254H (35-255-5) cam/spring/lifter combo. I guess at this point everything is done and I just have to wait patiently... that is going to be hard.

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Good choice. It removes going back on headers you have, and keeps the compression and the low end cam torque where you want it.

    Its got a nice amount of lift, and I'm betting with the wide lobe center everything will gell together well.

    http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/35-255-5/10002/-1


    Flat tappet cams, if run in well, with good springs, won't die in the modern low disulphate oils, but I'd use

    Oil?

    Palm Beach County, Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by mikestang63 View Post
    rotellla 15-40 . yes it's "diesel" oil, but I have been running it in my foxes for 20 years.

    Or Canada...


    Quote Originally Posted by mcfairmont View Post
    In the past few years, I have installed new flat tappet solid lifter cams in 3 of my engines, my 331 SB Ford, 427 FE Ford, both for my drag cars, and a FE 428 Cobra Jet for my 59 Ford street car. All 3 were broke in with lighter valve springs and high zinc break in oil, and all have been using Brad Penn 10-30 since. All 3 engines were properly broken in on my buddys engine dyno, and all are good running, happy engines. There may well be other oils that would work just as good, but the Brad Penn was recommended by a racing friend who owns Oregon Cam in Vancouver Washington, and it works well, so I see no reason to change oil brands.

  19. #19

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    Yes, definitely will be careful of the oil. I don't put many miles on it (although that may change now) so so a slightly more expensive oil doesn't bother me.

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