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  1. #1
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Default Front struts replaced...this doesn't seem right

    This may be a dumb question, but figured I'd ask. Had the front struts replaced by a shop because I just didn't have time. I got the car aligned after and just noticed this not long after and have been meaning to post. If I had the time and done the install, I would have lined everything up where it was before. Should I shift this plate and have it realigned (no cost, alignment is lifetime)? First 2 pics are the driver's side, 3rd pic is the passenger's side, which looks like it's in the same place it was before.





    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
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    Does the alignment seem OK? Did the shop provide a detailed sheet with the alignment specs?(computer print-out). Manufacturing tolerances could account for the mount being moved. Were the bushings also repaced? It wouldn't cost anything but time to have the alignment re-done if it gives you peace of mind though.

  3. #3

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    Looks like the strut is pushed to the outside giving you less negative camber. Doesn't look right to me.

  4. #4
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
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    It could be that they did not tighten the bolts enough on the drivers side and it shifted from use. You might want to check and see how tight they are. Are you seeing any abnormal tire wear? I’m with gmatt, I would have the car realigned to be sure.
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  5. #5
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Yeah the alignment seemed ok, but I don't remember the numbers. I have the sheet. I think some of them were toward the outside of the range.

    So would you move it first and then get it aligned? Or is that something they are supposed to move?

    I had new struts, mounts, rotors, pads, bearings, seals, sway bar links, and poly rack bushings installed.

    Car rides great. Everything was very smooth before but now I have a shake at 80. Tires are old. Wonder if the shimmy has to do with the alignment.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 11-24-2017 at 12:33 AM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member gr79's Avatar
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    That is a lot of work done with time and money spent.
    That plate may have slipped or positioning step was overlooked when strut was replaced.
    Distractions can happen on the job.
    Somethings may have settled out by driving and need to be readjusted/reevaluated.

    If it were me i would not touch anything . You paid them to do this work.
    Give them a call.
    Explain, with understanding attitude, on having concerns on recent work and have questions:

    Why ds strut mount plate is not where it was, far over to one side of tower adjustment slot?
    Mention car rides great. However..
    Car steering now has shake- not there before- could this be related?
    Concern about spec sheet data range. What position was plate in when spec was recorded?

    Accept the fact that mentioning driving 80, and on old tires, does not sound wise.
    It happens at 60, right?
    Could have a loose wheel, thrown a wheel weight, loose fasteners on new parts, etc.

    Techs/Mechanics tend to move quick as possible to make money for themselves and the shop.
    Depends on how old they are. Experience, attitude, working conditions, are factors.
    Mistakes happen to all. Simple routine things can get overlooked. Distractions.

    It is good we work on our cars, because details and history can be of value, saving time in resolving issues like this.
    Cars are complex nowadays. Most shops do not work on older, simpler, cars very often.
    Alldata databases are a common source how they get repair procedure info if not savvy.
    Mechanics working at any dealer or shop from the 80's-90's have pretty much moved on to other things.

    I like a shop where they have mega skill and am allowed to chime in with hands on unwritten knowledge about my car.
    If they say i can wait for it, i stay quietly nearby casually monitoring progress. Like a hawk.
    Several have trusted me out into the shop floor if only to watch safely when they were not busy.
    Lots of times had brief but good car and tech related non-distracting conversation with the mechanics out there.

    Give the shop another shot or three to correct everything in a way to make everyone happy.
    A good shop will not have any problem with this. If they get busy, have to be patient.

    A rare test drive in the car with mechanic, under your driving conditions, may be needed to pinpoint further action.
    Last edited by gr79; 11-24-2017 at 04:11 AM.

  7. #7
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree with the posts above. I would take the car back and at least have the alignment rechecked. It appears to me the strut mounting nuts were not tightened down correctly and while driving the strut has moved and that is most likely the reason for the shimmy or shake.

    It is possible the alignment is that different side to side, but I doubt it. Generally the only time I have seen that much difference side to side on a Fox is either due to front end damage or steering/suspension components being worn out excessively on one side of the car.

    Be polite and understanding as sh#t does happen and it's possible the strut was tightened up and still moved. Have them verify the alignment and correct as needed, then replace the tires.
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

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  8. #8
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice everyone. There is much more of a story to this that makes "take it back to the shop" impossible -- primarily because the shop is in CT and I live in FL now.

    I had all the parts in hand ready to do everything myself last May. But I graduated grad school in CT in June, got a job, and had to move back to FL in early July. With the move and all, I just didn't have the time to do the job myself, and my tools were in a truck moving to FL. So I found a local shop in CT that would install my parts for me (most places will not install parts the customer provides). The shop is a mom and pop place that was well reviewed very nice to work with.

    So the plan was to have the shop install the parts in a few days, get the car back, park it with my neighbor, drive our daily driver's down to FL, and fly back to CT for a nice road trip down the coast in the Mustang. Of course, with Ford being Ford, some of the 1985 parts I ordered from RockAuto for my early 85 did not fit (rack bushings being one of them, bearings and seals the other). So my fiance and I had to leave the car at the shop and drive our daily driver's down to FL to meet the moving truck. I had the right bushings and bearings over-nighted to the shop in CT from LMR while we were out of town. They finished the car the day we got back up there. They don't do alignments, so I took it to Firestone, where I get lifetime alignments for all my cars. If they can align my 7 series, they can do the 85. Then I left from there to meet my parents for the 4th.

    So, long story short, they installed all the stuff well, but that plate is off. The alignment specs were ok when they aligned it, but I did not notice the plate at that time. I guess it could have moved, but my guess is they just threw the thing together and tightened stuff up. I did not know if maybe the alignment people did that to get the specs right, but my guess would be no, because I can watch them do the alignment from the waiting area, and the hood was not opened. I don't believe it shifted, but I don't know.

    What does that plate adjust? Camber? That would be the only explanation for why the car doesn't run as smooth as before the work, since the tires and everything are the same. Unless the new rotors aren't true. But I bought the best parts I could get. The car was smooooth before.

    What I could do is just reorient the plate to its original location and take it to my local Firestone and have them check/adjust the alignment. But I don't really know what that plate is for.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 11-24-2017 at 04:50 PM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  9. #9

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    I believe that plate has a small roll pin through it into the strut tower from the factory. Just jam it together as it goes down the line. The plate is basically a washer. Although if it "moved" it would be more inclined to go the other way under the weight of the car. They really should really be close to the same position on each side. (Unless wrecked or k member has been off and reinstalled out of whack) My .02

  10. #10
    FEP Senior Member
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    Has the car been lowered at all or been in an accident or banged into a curb? If so, you can only get so much adjustment without using aftermarket caster/camber plates, and they moved the factory mounts over to make the wheels straight up & down. If the car drives straight, doesn`t pull to one side, and the steering wheel is centered, I would have to think the wheel alignment is likely OK. Just moving the strut mounts to put the upper plates back where they used to be would change the alignment settings. If the alignment is OK, a vibration at high speeds is highly unlikely to be alignment related. You may have a tire going bad, a bent rim, or balance issue. To shift the mount over to where it used to be, and expect them to redo the alignment for free, after you messed with the settings is unreasonable.
    1978 Fairmont 2 door sedan, 428CJ 4speed. 9.972ET@132.54mph. 1.29 60 foot
    Replaced the FE big block with my 331/4 speed in my Fairmont, best 10.24ET @128 MPH.
    1985 Mustang LX hatchback NHRA Stock Eliminator 302 4 speed best in legal trim 12.31@107 mph, but has gone 11.42@115 with aftermarket intake, carb, and iron Windsor Jr. heads.New for 2012! 331 cube SB Ford, AFR 185 heads, solid flat tappet cam, pump gas; 10.296ET@128.71 mph, 1.37 60 foot.
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  11. #11
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    No the car is not lowered or bent. Previous to the strut install, the plates were the same lined up to hole 3 on each side.

    I have to get my alignment sheet out when I get home. One side was off a little that went to the far end of "acceptable" in the alignment range. I remember asking the guy and he said it is non-adjustable and probably just the strut you got. That could be caster, but I'll double check to make sure it wasn't the camber on that side.

    My tires are probably the culprit for the vibration, but everything ran very smooth before all the work. It's not bad now except for 75-80. I doubt it's the alignment, unless the two sides are very opposite in adjustment, and compensated with toe.

    And I paid for a lifetime alignment. I can take it in every day for the next year and ask for an alignment and it would be free. Firestone has a great deal for those that work on cars with that. It's more money up front but pays for itself in 2-3 alignments. I've probably aligned my E38 four times from replacing control arms and tie rods. Highly recommended to everyone on here.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 11-25-2017 at 09:25 AM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  12. #12

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    If they didn't open the hood, they did't properly align the car. The three nuts on the top of the strut tower need to be loosened and tightened to adjust camber.

    A "bad" alignment is never going to cause vibration.

    Just because the car drives straight does not mean that the alignment is "good". For a given type of driving, the alignment needs to be optimized to give the best possible tire wear. The harder the car is cornered for instance, the more negative camber is needed.

    You can use a Sharpie marker on the strut top to mark where the camber is set to. That way if it ever moves after being aligned, you will know.

    If the k-member is not centered on the chassis, the strut mounts will not be placed symmetrically to end up with the same camber settings on both sides of the car.

    What brand and model struts were installed?

    I would post your entire alignment printout.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Strut to spindle bolts/nuts usually have a lot of play before they are tightened up. Loosen the bolts on the drivers side and apply downward pressure to the spindle and retighten. That will allow the strut to move inward and end up with negative camber near where it is now, assuming it's about right currently.

    All that being said, you will be hugely happier if you do the above and add caster/camber plates then get it realigned. Max out the positive caster but make it even on both sides then dial in a little negative camber. The harder you drive it, the more you want. Around -1.25 is about right for the street.

    Strut tower brace and lower K member brace will improve hold and feel near the limit. So will SN95 style low friction balljoints.

    Good luck.

  14. #14

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    Holy Camber, batman.
    If that car needed that much adjustment on a stock suspension, something is wrong.
    1986 GT T Top- stock except for magnaflow cat back
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  15. #15
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Well i got the sheet. According to the specs, it's on except for extra positive caster. I tested the nuts on the strut tower and they are all ridiculously tight. Are these specs wrong? It calls for zero camber on the front? Looks like camber wasn't changed either. Numbers are the same before and after.



    Forgot to add the struts are KYB Excel G, mounts KYB, Moog sway bar links, prothane rack bushings (not offset), raysbestos professional rotors, motorcraft pads.

    The mechanic wouldn't have loosened the K-member? There would be no reason for that.
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 11-25-2017 at 07:33 PM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  16. #16

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    The camber specification is -0.0 degrees +/-0.75 degrees. Therefore if it is adjusted anywhere in the range of -0.75 to +0.75 degrees, a shop that does free alignments for life won't touch it as they are trying to do the absolute minimum amount of work.

    I'm sure that the alignment shop didn't loosen the k-member, but the car is 32 years old. Who knows what has been done to it in that time frame.

    If you go a better alignment shop, they will have the machine print out advanced parameters such as KPI (SAI). This will allow you to know if a spindle is bent or if the strut bolt holes have excessive play in them and are not adjusted the same.

    If you put a straightedge on the tire sidewall on each side of the car, you can see the offset between the fender arch and the straightedge. This will give you a decent idea if they k-member is centered on the car. Again a better alignment shop will print out secondary parameters which will show the offset of the front tires compared to the rears. Another possibility is that the FCA bushings are too worn out.

    If you want the car to drive better, I would install c/c plates as you will be able to get the caster into the +3 degree range. I would align the car with at least -1 degree of camber if you care about cornering grip at all.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  17. #17
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    What you have there with your printout is the typical volume alignment shop of "Set the Toe & Go!"

    The hood was never raised on the car because all the shop did was adjust the toe setting of the front wheels to within specs and out the door the car went. The tech spent more time getting the car onto the rack and setting up the machine did he did working on your actual car.

    Listen to Jack's advice and buy some new tires before you take the Mustang to a better shop for a "Real" Alignment. Good Luck!
    ​Trey

    "I Don't build it hoping for your approval! I built it because it meets mine!"

    "I've spent most of my money on Mustangs, racing, and women... the rest I just wasted."

    Mustangs Past: Too many to remember!
    Current Mustangs:
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    1979 Pace Car now 5.0/5 speed
    1982 GT Stalled RestoModification
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  18. #18
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Ok good info guys thank you. I will have to research where to go around here. This is a weekend car that's been in the family since new and isn't driven too hard. So I'm not really in the market for cc plates...

    I just want to keep the car stock and have it together right. What would I be asking a shop to find out if they have these secondary parameters and if they do "good alignments"? I don't think I've run across such an alignment before?
    Last edited by 85stanggt; 11-26-2017 at 11:24 AM.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  19. #19

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    Installing c/c plates has nothing to do with driving the car hard. It has to do with having the car drive and handle well. Ford really didn't know what they were doing in these respects when they designed these cars. Installing c/c plates will help fix some of their design issues (inadequate positive caster being the main one).

    From the photos of your strut towers, it appears that the strut mounts installed are really the ones fro ma 1990-93 Mustang. See how far back in the center hole that strut is located? The 1990-93 mounts do this to add positive caster.

    Below is a link to an alignment printout with advanced or secondary parameters.

    https://www.clublexus.com/forums/att...align10305.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_alignment

    If the SAI is not the same on each side of the car and the wheelbases are not equal, then something is not right with the car. You'll need to post an alignment sheet for us to figure out what.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  20. #20

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    Deleted.
    Last edited by quickshift; 11-27-2017 at 06:48 PM.
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  21. #21
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Jack, thanks for the links. I have seen a print out like that in my files for the car. Probably aligned like that 10+ years ago. Should have googled for the alignment to get that wikipedia page. Explains it all.

    The mounts I got were the ones listed for an '85. They also look identical (to me) to what was on the car before that, which may have been replaced with the 90-93 type when the struts were replaced 100k ago.

    I'll look into getting CC plates. From searches, it seems positive caster gives more high speed stability? As in the car tends to track easier or what?

    Just for giggles, here are two pictures of the car from Apr '04 (first) and Mar '06 (second). You can see the plates are different in each of the pictures lol. So someone was aligning the car with more than toe at some point. The 04 picture shows the passenger side outward and drivers inward (opposite of what it is now). The 06 picture shows them both inboard. Go figure. I just need to get a good alignment. And some CC plates I guess.



    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  22. #22

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    From 1979-93 the camber spec for a Mustang changed from +0.25 to -0.6 degrees. These are all for the same car. Yes, there were changes to the car, but mostly what changed is that Ford realized that people weren't going to drive the car like a grandma. The amount of camber in the alignment is heavily a function of how hard the car is cornered. Over the years Ford realized this along with learning how much negative camber and positive caster that a strut car needs. As a point of comparison, the 2005 Mustang has 7 degrees of caster, while the 1979 model had 1 degree!

    Yes, I would use those numbers as a starting point on a Fox chassis car that was going to be driven more than Grandma like. I would not exceed about 3.5 degrees of caster. If you do, then you will need to modify the suspension to fix the resulting bumpsteer. More caster will make the car drive better, but you would have to correct the resulting bumpsteer.

    Positive caster does several beneficial things. It creates a self aligning steering torque that is a function of the steering angle. The greater the angle that the front tires are turned from straight ahead, the more force caster will cause to make the tires want to point straight ahead. When driving down the a straight road, this makes the car much more stable when hitting bumps or in cross winds.

    It increases steering effort, which is a good thing on a Fox car which has way over assisted steering.

    It allows you to tell when the front tires are at or approaching their grip limit. This is complicated to explain why. It has to do with the self aligning torque that the tires generate when cornering.

    Caster also creates more negative camber at greater steering angles. This reduces understeer in tight corners, which is one of the Fox chassis cars greatest problems.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  23. #23
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Awesome explanation thank you. I can fully picture what you are describing. So, max of 3.5 degrees caster to avoid bumpsteer issues. Would you say the 2 degrees I have now (according to the last alignment sheet) is a good middle ground or go right up to 3.5? Also, what would you do for camber? -1? -0.6 like the later foxes?

    Another totally (I think) unrelated question: when going through a long sweeping turn like an off ramp, I notice the steering is very touchy at certain points of turning. In other words, it'll have a consistent feel, but if I turn a little more as the turn radius decreases, it'll dart with the slightest wheel movement, past that it is consistent again. It's like my rack is super touchy at certain steering angles. Is this a rack problem, time for a fluid change, or a suspension settings issue?

    Side note: this was an issue before all my suspension work -- I thought it was maybe a result of my obliterated rack bushings allowing the rack to shift on the K-member. Not so apparently. Another side note: The rack was changed about 15 years ago when it was on the lift for outer tie rods and other work due to my original rack leaking from the inside tie rod. I wish I just kept the old rack and had it rebuild by someone local, but it was a split second decision while it was up in the air and already apart.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

  24. #24

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    If you were to install c/c plates, I would set the caster to the maximum positive, but equal side to side, value possible. This should be in the 3 to 3.5 degree range. I would set the camber to -1 degree for your use.

    Your description of the steering, is a general problem with all Fox power steering racks. The power steering rack creates steering assist in response to applied torque at the steering wheel. The harder the car is cornered, the more steering torque is required to turn the front tires to a given angle. With a perfect steering rack, the relationship between applied steering torque and the resulting assist would be mostly linear. With a Fox steering rack it isn't. When you apply a small amount of torque, you get almost no assist. Once you pass a threshold amount of torque, you get a lot of assist.

    In situations that you describe, this makes the car twitchy and difficult to keep on a constant line while cornering. The only real fix for this is to install an SN95 steering rack and hybrid steering shaft into your car. These racks have much better linearity.

    It is also possible that the rebuilt rack you installed has parts of the spool valve from different racks. That will make the resulting behavior very unpredictable.

    If you want to understand more about how a power steering rack works, see the article below.

    http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-t...ered-straight/

    Photos 6, 7 and 8 show the slots machined into the spool valve. The geometry of these slots largely determines the linearity of the steering racks assist curve. To get good linearity, the grooves must have small steps machined into the sides of the grooves of a precise width and depth.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  25. #25
    FEP Power Member 85stanggt's Avatar
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    Jack, thanks for all the info. Sounds my rack is acting just like a Fox rack. I'm not sure about the spool valve -- always a question of mine how good those reman parts are. Thanks for the link great info there. I'm waiting to get the car running after my intake gasket job before tackling this stuff.
    1985 Mustang GT Convertible
    Stock and original @ 213k, except for dynomax ultraflos.

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