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  1. #1

    Default Brackets to use stock 1982 302 A/C, Power Steering and Alternator on 351C

    I'm temporarily removing the entire stock power train from my 82 GT, and replacing with a 351 Cleveland, TKO 600, 8.8 rear end. This will be a street car and I'm aiming to retain A/C, power steering, and alternator. I'd like to re-use all those components from my 302, but of course none of them bolt onto the Cleveland with the 302's brackets.

    I've searched around for swap kits, serpentine kits, etc for the 351C, but they all cost >$800 and want to sell me their components, not just the mounting brackets & pulleys. It won't be a show car and I don't need polished chrome.

    Is anyone aware of a source for brackets to re-use my A/C, PS pump, and Alt, on this Cleveland? I'm ok with buying a special water pump if it's got to be reverse flow or for special mounting bolt patterns.

    Also curious if anyone has found a low-cost oil pan for the 351C that will let it sit in a foxbody?
    I want to use the original hood, which has a faux hood scoop. In other words, it's got to sit low enough that I don't have to make height room for the air cleaner. Am I going to need to get a special K-member for this? Or a k-member lowering kit?

    I know I'm a little bit off the reservation in this unnatural mutation of my four eye. My dad used to race this Cleveland and I'd like to see it live once again in my project car. I'm keeping the stock power train for when I want to take it back stock!

    Thanks for any pointers.

  2. #2

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    Sounds like you need to start fabricating. With the time and effort you will need, that 800 might be money well spent.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    You can make your own, the ancillary drive and sump are easy.


    If you don't want to buy shopmade, you buy a sump thats close, and have it MIG welded.


    Here is the result when you make your own accessory drive plates.




    but the reason everyone else wants you to buy stuff is because Advance Enginering West and then, Kaufmann Products in Downey, CA did these #8945 kits to the public, IIRC, they used steel exchange units. Chris no longer does 'em, too busy with firearms training and golf and car racing. But if you are able redo your stock brakets in steel plate, that will be best.

    A lot of people over think this, because the 1979-1988 351w, 1979-1983 351M and 400's and Australian 1971-1985 302C/351C's never picked up the 1979 serpentine belt drive the 1979 Mustang and Capri 5.0 got. But everything else, the water pump, the principal spacings and despite the 400 thou difference in the harmonic balancer postion, its all Windsor 351.

    The same issues with Windsor 351 swaps into Fox 351's. People missunderstand that its only a modified sump and a few extra flitch plates to get a Cleveland fitted.

    1. Do a quick heads up check with all the 351 Windsor issues need to be read first,


    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...swap-queations
    bfm347 tips:-



    HOOD stock hood or cowl
    FUEL efi or carb
    EXHAUST stock or not
    DRIVELINE auto or manual, LMR 157 28oz flwheel, or does it have to be SFI rated for drag racing
    INTAKE EFi Lower intake is wider and 5.8 truck Fuel rails differ; 4bbl intake is taller
    SUSPENSION front sway bar required 1-1/4" front sway bar spacer to clear oil pan; SN95 sway bar mounts help
    OIL PAN stock 351 W Panther or oil pan swap custom aftermarket
    ACCESSORY PLAN a/c required?supercharger planned?

    other questions:-
    SD (speed density) or MAF (mass air-flow)
    are stock, convertible or LMR 351 swap "solid motor" mounts going to be okay?
    Is K- member spacing required? Steering Rag joint can intrude, accessories and header spacing differs depending.
    If EFi, Edlebrock 3848 elbow on 4bbl intake or stock GT40 intake
    TFi distributor mates to 351



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIJMTFTBgM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zgGe2bfnK4

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Dog View Post
    As far as I know the 351 Crown Vics were all police packages and they came with variable venturi carburetor.
    I just figured with a low production run they didn't want to make the special lowers.
    Canuck CV's were 351 for many years, so the above is a great source for the sump.
    then

    2. go back to the historic 1988 Hot Rod magazine Fox 351w/ 429/460 swap articles.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...yl-to-351-swap


    3. Then the 460 85 Ford Mustang swap.
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-My-85-GT-7-5L


    Number 4 is below, the answer!


    Key points are that "Panther" LTD/Town Victoria/Marquis/Gran Marquis got a serpintine belt on all 5.0 and Canadian 5.8's till 1991 if you are smart enough to find the brackets.

    Everything the 28 Ounce unbalance 351W used from 1985 to 1997 can be used on the 351C.

    The difference is really only the deck height increase of 8.206--->9.206"
    The 351w is 9.469" early years, then 9.500"
    400 and 351M, 10.306".

    429/460, 10.206".

    So anything that you see on mustangxtreme's 400 will work on a 351C.

    All the historic parts lists for Fox SBF conversions are listed in this post.

    See

    Number 4

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nd-Engine-Swap

    In that, are 2ksteeda's 351C and mustangextreme's 400 Ford swap pictures.

    The parts are easier if you use steel plate, like 7point5inafox

    Quote Originally Posted by 7point5inafox View Post
    Wow, did you ever have to dig deep for that pic! These plates were the first set I made and I did use steel. I got it for free but it took forever to cut and once these were done I swore never again. A sawz-all, a grinder and a drill press was all that I had. Once there were a few people interested in buying the plates I had to start looking for a source to buy 1/2" aluminum or it wouldn't be worth doing. I could see some shifting being possible if the holes were kinda sloppy so I drilled out the 3 alt bracket holes to use 7/16" bolts. I was able to reuse that long stud the goes directly into the block that goes thru the upper power steering bolt hole. This thing was flawless for over 30,000 miles so I'm sure it'll prove to be my incompetence for not pressing the pulley on far enough when installing it on the new pump.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Dave's mustangxtreme photo's

    400 Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by mustangxtreme View Post
    Here"s an update... it seems to take way more time than it should to get things to come together.

    Here is the engine in it's current state. I have the accessories installed, the broken exhaust bolt taken care of and am currently finishing the mods to the k-member.

    Engine.jpg

    I used the power steering bracket from my 3.8 and a custom made bracket with an idler pulley for the power steering.

    PS_Mountg.jpg

    The alternator is a 3G which I enlarged the mount hole and a custom bracket for tension adjustment.

    AltMount.jpg

    The crank pulley and the water pump were generously donated by a 5.0L Lincoln.

    To complete the mods to the 96 k-member, I trimmed about 1/2" from the aft end of the k-member and need to expand the slots to match up with the earlier k-members.

    K-memberMod2.jpg

    K-memberMod.jpg












    Sump



    bolt to hold oil pickup













  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Oil pan after prep







    other attempts








  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Once you got that knocked over, then you use the 15" air cleaner with a 1984-1985 5.0 CFi Thuderbird or 2V GT HO 1982 5.0 Mustang gt or RS Capri upper air cleaner lid.



    2ksteeda's 351C used a restencilled 5.0 GT HO air cleaner with "4V" instead of "2V"






    Unlike the bigger 351W and 429 and 460, the 351C forces the air cleaner back due to the way you have to postion the engine.

    17" air cleaners work for any 4-bbl 302w, 351w, 429/460, but not the 351C, 351M and 400 Fords.



    It was born as the standard 1979-1988 Big Block and 5.8 air cleaner when optioned with the 4-bbl 4190 Truck carb for the F 150/250/350'S.

    All the 335 family 351M and 400's used the oddball 2V 351C Australian air cleaner, also 17", but different.

    The 15" air cleaner first used in the is normaly the common wrecking yard Standard Performance Fox v8 5.0 air cleaner.

    Its born single snrokel form the 1974 Mexican Mustang 5.0, then USA 1975-1985, last used in the EECIII CFi 5.0 or EECIV CFi 5.0.

    Its also as used in the first European Group A racing Mustangs





    Stock 4.2 and 5.0 non CFi EFi were the same 15" body, but its most places as a single snorkel, and looked a little plain, but they are the same



    RHD Aussie Mustang 302


  7. #7

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    Thanks for the info and responses. A LOT to sort through there. Really appreciate the inputs.

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member gmatt's Avatar
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    Are the OEM 351C accessory brackets not an option? Ebay, Craigslist, other forums as sources. Sorry if I'm not seeing some obvious problem. WP and crank pullies for serpentine might be an issue, but I haven't researched.

  9. #9
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbain View Post
    Thanks for the info and responses. A LOT to sort through there. Really appreciate the inputs.
    Not too much. You don't have to read it all, but the 351W, 335 (351C/351M/400) and Lima 385 (370/429/460) were all done by the same team, so everything is modular, and interchanges. Kaufmann's #8945 kit is what you are copying, and you'll be able to use the tensioner if you like. Ford made Kaufmann the go to guy and its pretty simple. Just follow the brief below, and don't stress the big stuff. Each detail will place whole kit in the ideal postion.

    Start with the Denso A/C unit, Zephyr EFI is a good on line show and tell for a/c
    the later model higher volume power steering pump,
    the 31 pound per hour air pump if your using it,
    the tensioner,
    the 5.0 balancer with the 28 ounch unbalance from 5.0 liter 1979 Standard Performance Mustangsand Capris.
    Water pump, the stock 79 to whatever year.

    The plates just cope with the differences. A 90 degree V8, if its deck is 1.00" taller, the accessories are 1.00 further out in both directions. So that part is simple.

    The belt you need just has to accomodate the extra span. You measure the span difference with a piece of lawn trimmer line and a makrker pen, and get you miniumum and maximum sizes of the belt, and then find a belt close. Normally, a 5.8 Windsor serpintine belt will be pretty close.


    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 7point5inafox View Post
    Thanks for all the kind words! I started out with a swap kit from Kaufmann w/ 1-7/8" headers. The swap kits always made the motor sit way too high because they work around the rack, which is higher than it needs to be. I made my k-member to lower the rack about 1-1/2" to bring the water pump centerline to be to the stock 5.0L location. That allowed for the 18" Flexalite fan inside the modified original shroud. The headers ended up being a little small so I bought 2" Hookers. They had such terrible ground clearance with my lowered set up that I had to constantly patch the lowest tube on each side. That was one of the things I fixed on this go round. Using the 5.L accessories wasn't too difficult. An 1/2" thick plate was cut and bolted to the head. I lined up where I wanted the accessories and drilled and threaded the holes. The 5.0L crank pulley bolts right on. The 5.0L water pump pulley needs a 1/4" spacer, the 460 bolt pattern drilled and the center hole enlarged to 3/4". The alternator bracket needs about 3/16" ground off. Last is to modify the original 5.0L front steel plate.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/attachme...5&d=1446522376
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/attachme...6&d=1446522376


    #179


    #59, he used a 17" air cleaner, his engine was lowered with a custom K member, and the 351C runs best with a 15" since the carb in the 335 engine's are centered is 1.05"further back than the 460.

    You might just be able to fit the 17", if you are carefull, most 5.8 Fox Fairmonts take it okay, but the Mustang has a faster sloping hood, and most of the kits tend to push it up.

    If you use solid engine mounts, you can drag the engine down, and that makes the 17" air cleaner at risk in hitting the fire wall flange...it "just depends".

    The rack and pinion steering can be moved down, or you can use the 1/2" Maxim Motorsports K member spacer kit which allows you to use an already shallower SN95 k member, with a few alterations, mustangxtreme style. I'm sure your looking at a do minimum option, and there's lots of scope, but you can really lower the engine a lot in the car, or you might just want a very stock conversion.


    Quote Originally Posted by 7point5inafox View Post
    I spent a fair amount of time making this air cleaner work. I got another air cleaner base, and used just the dome part inside the filter. I laid it on the carb and after cutting the middle out of the original base, laid it on top and tilted it to the same angle as the cowl hood. This for sure isn't a perfect set up because of the limited air gap from the top of the choke horn to the air cleaner lid but seems to work ok and it looks cool. I may try one of those chokeless carb bodies this time around. It was then time to rework the snorkels. They needed cut off and angled downwards to hit the inlet holes correctly. The 2 self tapper screws made a flimsy attempt to hold those snorkels on so I went with 4 nutserts and put a reinforcement plate on each side. It's super solid now.





  10. #10
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Easy engine swaps with Canton 8 quart external dipstick sump.

    Engine mounts the same

    You can drop the k member down from the body via spacers to get more engine room.

    Serpentine belt drive from the net using common US parts.

    https://www.motorator.com/blog/ford/.../#.WNijQBKvQgQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mh_DW84qg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mh_DW84qg&t=203s
    ........









    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RYGpm0ajfA












  11. #11

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    Nice job customizing the belt routing for a normal rotation water pump gang. Would be easy with or without AC.

    I spent a ton of time researching Cleveland swaps at one point. My conclusion was that the C heads show vast advantages over the W heads in terms of flow but the C rotating assemblies had limited advantages if any over the W's. I was going to leave the C for guys who have cars that came with them....

    My plan was to put a stroker kit into a W that's drilled to accept C heads then use adapter plates to go from a 302 intake to a C head on a W block. When the aluminum head market started going down in price rapidly those plans were scrapped because there are inherent risks in running combos most everyone else would never run and at the end of the day I simply want reliable power. The detonation tendency of the clevelands was one of the things that steered me away from it. Granted the most powerful car I've ever rode in to this day was a Cleveland based stroker build fed enough nitrous to destroy a town.

    I noticed in one of the pictures that there was a 2 barrel intake on one of the clevelands pictured. I do not really see the point of a Cleveland if it's going to get strangled for air.

    Just my thoughts and observations.

  12. #12
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    mcbain

    If you copy any of the 1994 to 2001 Winsor OHV V8 drives (SN95, Explorer/Mountaineer, F truck 5.0 or 5.8 )



    your belt sizes with Air pump, Alternator and Power steering will be about 84.5", with up to 93 and as little as 80.5.

    To fit those, you just have to push the adptor plates out from the 8.206 to 9.206", 1 inch per side.


    First three digits on the Dayco or whatever part number or last three are the 84.5 = xxx845 or 845xxx

    Quote Originally Posted by wraithracing View Post
    I believe the diagrams are designed for stock pulleys, but I might be wrong.

    As for the 351W, the deck is 3/4" taller per side to 1.5" wider overall than a 302. IIRC, when I ran my 351 my belt sized increased @ 1-2" compared to the OEM 302 size. So there is a difference, but not much.

    Trey

    For A/C, use the later 1982 onwards Denso or aftermarket Sanden unit Fords 5.0 GT 2 bbl and 4bbl and EFi's used

    Here is how it fits an imported 302C 2V 2-BBL V8 in a 1974 XB Falcon GS Utility Pickup....





    Here is how it goes on an Argentina Ford Falcon SP 221 3.6 Liter in line six....it just needs a braket to fit anywhere, mounted up high on the drivers side just like it was in the Fox 5.0's



    3.1 Liter Max Econno in line six, same Sanden A/C unit




    In Australia, the Greens Tough 17 replica engine has a Australian designed and produced serpinite belt system, but its expensive





    erratic50

    The ancillary drive development stoped dead in the USA 1978 for the 351M and 400's, same with the Aussie 302C and 351C. On both continents, FoMoCo never got the 1982 US Denso or 1979 AU Sanden axial flow A/C units, although Duraspark III and a Crank Position Sensors was added to the US Truck engines in some F trucks, so they looked like 5.0 CFi's.

    The 351M engine in 145 hp form was also used by Clénet in some of the last 187 Lincoln based Series II Vintage cars he made. The 83-87's were 5.0's.

    The 5.8 "351M" engine was still being emissions certified, but never developed. http://www.automobile-catalog.com/ma...s_ii/1982.html

    Ford USA actually didn't trash and burn its Modified Tall Deck 351M and 400 engine tooling until the Ford MotorSport SVO replacement 9.206 and 9.469" 351WCP blocks with down sized 2.75" main bearings came out to replace the last XE NASCAR blocks and 2V Closed Chamber 57 cc Iron heads in 1988. The crank spacer forces the pully out 400 thou on 351M, 351C, 302c and 400 Fords.


    The issue with the 2-bbl intake is this. IIRC, the last 4-bbl passenger car before 1983 was the 216 hp 460 LTD. After the last 216 hp 460 engine was removed from the 1978 Ford and Lincoln and Mercury cars, the 715 cfm 4bbl Motorcraft carb dating back to the Boss 351 was pensioned off, so no 351M or 400 Fords ever went past the 1.23 2150 carb. It was only the Truck F250 429 and 460 that got the new for 1979 Holley 4190EG carb 4bbl. The Holley 2380EG became the 1.375 2-bbl 370/429 F truck 600/700 carb, so the 351M and 400 were throttled right down to 145 to 164 hp after a few years of about 178 hp net. The truck and Van 351W then got the first 4-bbl Holley 4180C in 1983, IIRC, same year as the 4V Mustang and Capri.

    Even the Australian 2V 302C from 1976 to 1983 got a mandatory 4-bbl intake manifold with Mopar Carter Thermoquad 9600 carb with 800 cfm, with the cars making a real 188 to 207 hp net on a 9.4:1 compression ratio and a diet of Leaded 97 Octane, and 19.5 US MPG at 62 mph. The 351C, it was 200 to 216 hp net on an 8.9:1 compression ratio, and got similar figures. The engines, especially the 5.8's, were standout Standing 1/4 mile performers, 15.9 seconds in the 3811 pound FMX 3-speed Fairmont GXL, 15.8 seconds in the 3197 pound 4 speed BW Single Rail Falcon S pack, 16.1 seconds in the 3417 pound BW SR4 speed Fairmont Ghia ESP 5.8. On a badly tuned 1979 Fairmont, a C4 auto 4.9 4-bbl would do 16.9 seconds flat, while the last Victorian Emissions LTD with 3637 pounds and a set of nasty 220/55 VR 390'S took 18.8 seconds. On wet ground, a 3637 pound 1979 Fairlane, an FMX 351C 4-bbl made 17.3 second 1/4 miles.

    Ford USA had the CAFE averages to meet, and Ford USA had been beaten to the punch by GM's Catalytic converter in 1975, and then the downsized B cars cars in 1977, the V cars in Australia, so Ford pulled all the most verile V8's in each continent, and then went nuts on the four and six cylinder line-ups. The flip side was that the 4180C Holley equiped 5.0 HO 4v, 2150 equiped 5.0 ho 2v, and even CFi 5.0's were faster than the all the old emissions 4-bbl 351C.












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