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  1. #1

    Default No Power To Coil

    I have a crank, but no start situation and just had a buddy put his MSD 6AL on in place of the one we figured was bad. The second one was repaired 10 years ago and never used, so it might very well be bad too.

    Here's the scenario. I have power to the MSD box, but find none at the coil. I replaced the coil early in my "Crank, No Start" troubleshooting and not surprisingly, it did nothing. I also replaced the ignition switch and AFPR.

    If it were the distributor, TFI, or PIP sensor, that would be no spark at plugs, since power first goes to the box, coil, distributor and then to the plugs, correct?

    HELP!!

  2. #2
    FEP Power Member fgross2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouchermb View Post
    I have a crank, but no start situation and just had a buddy put his MSD 6AL on in place of the one we figured was bad. The second one was repaired 10 years ago and never used, so it might very well be bad too.

    Here's the scenario. I have power to the MSD box, but find none at the coil. I replaced the coil early in my "Crank, No Start" troubleshooting and not surprisingly, it did nothing. I also replaced the ignition switch and AFPR.

    If it were the distributor, TFI, or PIP sensor, that would be no spark at plugs, since power first goes to the box, coil, distributor and then to the plugs, correct?

    HELP!!
    I had a crank no start issue last month. No spark at the coil. Changed the coil, still no spark at the coil. Changed TFI and PIP, car starts and runs fine now.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by fgross2006 View Post
    I had a crank no start issue last month. No spark at the coil. Changed the coil, still no spark at the coil. Changed TFI and PIP, car starts and runs fine now.
    I just thought that since I had power to the box and none from the box to the coil, that it would be the ignition module. My next move is the distributor,tfi, and pickup even though I did all of these a few years ago and only but about 1,500 miles on it since then.

  4. #4

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    replaced TFI module, still got nothing. I sent the ignition module back to MSD to check out and am hoping that's it.

    Any other ideas?

  5. #5
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    I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that 6A's and 6AL's trigger the coil with 12v, opposite of how the stock system works by firing the coil with a ground.

    I was looking for the MSD troubleshooting manual I had but I can't find it to reference here.
    '85 GT

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by qikgts View Post
    I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that 6A's and 6AL's trigger the coil with 12v, opposite of how the stock system works by firing the coil with a ground.

    I was looking for the MSD troubleshooting manual I had but I can't find it to reference here.
    So if I'm getting power to the igniotion module, but none from it, the box itself looks like it's probably the culprit, correct? I think I'll have my rebuilt box back soon, but when I hooked up the stock ignition to the coil it didn't start either.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouchermb View Post
    So if I'm getting power to the ignition module, but none from it, the box itself looks like it's probably the culprit, correct?
    IIRC the stock coil should get a ground trigger to fire it. When stock, there should be 12v+ on one side of the coil and then it get's a ground to fire each time. When the MSD is installed, things change and it grounds the coil constantly, then throws 12v+ to fire the coil.


    Quote Originally Posted by bouchermb View Post
    I think I'll have my rebuilt box back soon, but when I hooked up the stock ignition to the coil it didn't start either.
    I would make sure the car runs on stock stuff first because the MSD needs a working TFI module too.

    Hope this helps...
    '85 GT

  8. #8
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Recheck again the basics. This is a missing sheep excercise, where you have to penn up your existing checkes, and then go looking for white sheep, not black cats in black rooms, that might not be in side. Each earthing issue or non stock part, is stopping a conventional circuit that the EECIV is looking for in the

    1. ignition,

    2. fuel delivery or

    3. monitoring side (open and close loop, plus other)

    IIRC, you have an 86 GT convert with 255 fuel pump, new non standard fuel pressure regulator, MSD 6L etc.

    Its all starting to look non stock, and the stock parts regigged aren't really a good base to build on.

    I love EECIV, but its looking for voltages within factory range, and if the Air Fuel meter has replaced the stock O2 sensor arrangment, the EECIV has a hard time looking for the stock PIP and SPOUT signals.

    The 86 fuel pump circuit isn't a disaster, but if its been changed in any way from a stock system, then its 80% of non running issues. Ford's earlier twin pump system for CFi's was the best stock fuel pump system, later ones became a little harder to work through.

    I don't trust any anged EECIV system and its harware pipes; with age, the whole system is an ethonal gas fueled check zone. The wiring wasn't wonderfull in 1986, so it needs basic rechecking know. As others here have found, the basic EECIV has one issue with the capacitors, and although it might be outside the skill set of many, its the first thing electronic I'd check.

    Haystack and JACook in many simple posts have described the earthing structure of EECIV Fords. If the sensors going to the electronic control module ECM are not working, the ECM cannot do its normal funtion checks.

    ECM= electronic control module, not the Duraspark II or Motorcraft TFi moldule.

    Basic questions.

    Q1: do you know how to determine that your car is or was EECIV equiped?
    Q2: Is it EECIV equiped, and what is the box code of the EEICIV you have?

    Q3:If its EECIV equiped, are you sure the earthing systems are working? The multiple earthing structure will cause issues on old cars.

    Q4: If its non EECIV, with swapping in parts, eg born a code M 4-bbl 5.0 or born a carb engine with or without a feeback carb, then you need to check the ignition switch earthing, and anything in the the electrical system that may have changed from the stock "at birth" arrangement.

    Some notes for later generally post 1981 era Foxes.

    - People put kill switches in these cars, or repurpose the stock fail safe fuel pump kinetic switch. Non start, it'll be something basic.

    - If its not these things, and its EECIV, then go back to our other posts, and dig a little deeper.

    Be encouraged, DON'T GIVE UP!



    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post


    Good man. Really good to hear. Glad you got another ECM.

    I'd love to see your videos.

    This is what I got told back in 1985 when I was discussing EEC with a Ford technician who fitted Propane Gas systems...he siad that any small voltage changes really upset the EECIV because its polling swinging voltage changes and then the didgital side takes over. You can't easily wreck whats inside, and its used to seeing 0 to 14.2 volt signals. The 60 pin plug sucks up all the systems sensors and its swinging voltages, and then the digital side of it "handles the racket".

    These days its the 3145 Code reader not pulling codes indicates something else earthing out. Most problems are three strikes and your out voltage related. The home run is when the digital side does the processing. It expects that the bases will be taking players on a regular basis. No balls and 3 strikes and your out indicate a sensor or wire problem.

    They say rocket scientists take short cuts, so do on board computer engineers, because at Ford, the on board computer systems and protocols were devised by the same people who lofted space craft and Patriot missles.

    If its not "polling", its likely to be an obvious connector. Block diagrams of what to check first don't always help out if the Diagnostic Trouble Codes cant even be feilded.

    I hope you are enjoying you ride. The 5 liter CFi Convertable has a lovely sound and a quirky, but "reachable" on board computer. You won't kill it.

    That system won't go off line like some of the feedback Carb Fords of the 1981 to 1985 era did, so keep persisting.

    and

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Haystack recommended Puerto Rico's Joel5.0's posts from another forum. I've read it many, many times.

    If you can't pull codes, it's the many roads to Rome eathing issue, so you back up, and check the obvious.

    Everytime you sart thinking like a Ford service technician, you get closer to finding the problems.

    I know its another site, but you want to keep going back to the basics

    http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html

  9. #9

    Default

    I really appreciate everyone's feedback and I just replaced the ignition module and still have the same issue. I know throwing parts at this is not the answer and I need to troubleshoot what it's showing me and diagnose from there. I checked the coil, which is new, as is the TFI module, and am getting no spark. The distributor is a MSD 8456 and is a couple years old. Here's another question. The MSD 6A has a gray tach oputput wire that my older 6AL didn't. With my old 6AL I got the tach adapter to run the factory tach, I also have a monster tach,and was curious if I need to attach the gray tach wire to anything. If not, what would you do with it?

  10. #10

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    The car didn't run when I plugged the stock ignition back into the coil either. I also noticed when cranking the fuel gauge dropped the whole time, but not when it's in the run position. The battery gauge also spiked to 0 amps while cranking. This might be normal, but I figured I'd mention it.

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The back ground is that Fords EECIV was a home run for Ford.

    4th base, as it were.

    EECIV was better than cutting edge NASA spec in its Motorolla processor, but it has all the earlier EECIII items of a dedicated ignition system. The only major change was the refernece voltage. On the EECIV, if you change the ignition, and it no longer works at all, it is because it needs a sub 5 volt signal, and the PIP and SPOUT have to follow Fords EECIV system 100%. I know that this is what keeps your car from starting.


    We need to step back a little.

    Base 4: EECIV, its an Ignition, Fuel and EGR control computer, three things, three bases covered, exactly what the ultra advanced 1980-1984 EECIII used on the CFi 5.0 was. EECIII in the CFi cars (and to a lessor extent, the Variable Venturi 2-bbl and Motorcraft 2150 2-bbl in 351K's, 351M's and 400 Fords) were 3 rd base systems, which on the carb cars, didn't have Fuel Control like the CFi did.

    EECIV Ignition is the same essentially as the 5.0 CFi EECIII, a Speed Density system with the Dearborn guys coppying the EECIII algorithms over to EECIV, but its all packaged up to use the TFi as a Crank Postion Sensor (CPS).

    Base 3: All EECIII's had a CPS, and a gutted Duraspark II distributor, called a Duraspark III.

    Base 2 was the Ignition and Idle Fuel control EECII/ MCU Variable Venturi, with the earlier 1975-1978 Durasaprk I in 1978-1979 Califonia Fox Body Fairmont and X shell Granada/Monarch/Versailies. The EECII controlled air-fuel ratio via the Ford proprietary model 7200 Variable Venturi (VV) Carburetor. Ignition, EGR, two things, but with a very advanced higher energy early Duraspark I with Red strain relief to pass stringent CARB CA emissions standards.

    The MCU cars were similar, the common old 1-bbl 4 cylinder 2.3 OHV and 6 cylinder 4.9 Liter in line trucks, the Turbo and non Turbo 2-bbl Fox 2.3 OHC, the CA market 4.2/5.0 and later 3.8 V6 cars before EECIV and CFi were kind of EECII. Timing can be pulled out via knock sensor.

    Base 1 was the EEC 1 on board computer used in the 1978 Lincolns, as of mid year 1978. Very much the same as the California 1979 version, but with Duraspark II ignition. Ignition, EGR, two things

    Base 4 was the refining of all the field information Ford captured from the production EECI, II, and III cars....the EECIV was the home run system that integrated everything together with a TFi module that was no longer as big as a big brown Talmud or Bible like the EECIII's Duraspark III control unit was.


    No one understands the Duraspark III or TFi systems really well, so you have to go over the TFi related stuff supplied to you in the MSD hand book, and it has to have the right Prox meter signal to enliven the EECIV's reference square wave signal.

    The stock Ford sensors in the TFi are very reliable, but grounding issues comfund and confuse a lot of people. When you swap to an MSD, you can only use a system that supplies the EECIV the vital information.

    My bet is the system is not compatible, and you need a little bit of help.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    The back ground is that Fords EECIV was a home run for Ford.

    4th base, as it were.

    EECIV was better than cutting edge NASA spec in its Motorolla processor, but it has all the earlier EECIII items of a dedicated ignition system. The only major change was the refernece voltage. On the EECIV, if you change the ignition, and it no longer works at all, it is because it needs a sub 5 volt signal, and the PIP and SPOUT have to follow Fords EECIV system 100%. I know that this is what keeps your car from starting.


    We need to step back a little.

    Base 4: EECIV, its an Ignition, Fuel and EGR control computer, three things, three bases covered, exactly what the ultra advanced 1980-1984 EECIII used on the CFi 5.0 was. EECIII in the CFi cars (and to a lessor extent, the Variable Venturi 2-bbl and Motorcraft 2150 2-bbl in 351K's, 351M's and 400 Fords) were 3 rd base systems, which on the carb cars, didn't have Fuel Control like the CFi did.

    EECIV Ignition is the same essentially as the 5.0 CFi EECIII, a Speed Density system with the Dearborn guys coppying the EECIII algorithms over to EECIV, but its all packaged up to use the TFi as a Crank Postion Sensor (CPS).

    Base 3: All EECIII's had a CPS, and a gutted Duraspark II distributor, called a Duraspark III.

    Base 2 was the Ignition and Idle Fuel control EECII/ MCU Variable Venturi, with the earlier 1975-1978 Durasaprk I in 1978-1979 Califonia Fox Body Fairmont and X shell Granada/Monarch/Versailies. The EECII controlled air-fuel ratio via the Ford proprietary model 7200 Variable Venturi (VV) Carburetor. Ignition, EGR, two things, but with a very advanced higher energy early Duraspark I with Red strain relief to pass stringent CARB CA emissions standards.

    The MCU cars were similar, the common old 1-bbl 4 cylinder 2.3 OHV and 6 cylinder 4.9 Liter in line trucks, the Turbo and non Turbo 2-bbl Fox 2.3 OHC, the CA market 4.2/5.0 and later 3.8 V6 cars before EECIV and CFi were kind of EECII. Timing can be pulled out via knock sensor.

    Base 1 was the EEC 1 on board computer used in the 1978 Lincolns, as of mid year 1978. Very much the same as the California 1979 version, but with Duraspark II ignition. Ignition, EGR, two things

    Base 4 was the refining of all the field information Ford captured from the production EECI, II, and III cars....the EECIV was the home run system that integrated everything together with a TFi module that was no longer as big as a big brown Talmud or Bible like the EECIII's Duraspark III control unit was.


    No one understands the Duraspark III or TFi systems really well, so you have to go over the TFi related stuff supplied to you in the MSD hand book, and it has to have the right Prox meter signal to enliven the EECIV's reference square wave signal.

    The stock Ford sensors in the TFi are very reliable, but grounding issues comfund and confuse a lot of people. When you swap to an MSD, you can only use a system that supplies the EECIV the vital information.

    My bet is the system is not compatible, and you need a little bit of help.
    The weird part is that the car ran fine as it's currently set up for years and this crank, no start, no spark condition reared it's ugly head a couple weeks ago. I noticed I got no power at the red/green, brown/pink wires at the ignition switch, so I replaced the ignition switch and am wiring in new fusible links. If I'm following the cranks but no start/spark checklist, if I don't have power to the coil, the fusible link is a probable cause. I did have power at the 2 yellow wires at the ignition switch. I also checked the grounds yesterday/cleaned them up as well.

    I really appreciate all the background info./feedback. I need all the education/help I can get.

  13. #13

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    Replaced the fusible links and still no spark at coil. I also got my ignition module back from MSD and that checked out fine. Is the distributor a likely or potential cause?

  14. #14
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    Take a look through this document. It should have a section relating to installations with TFI ignitions.

    http://www.exhaustgas.com/docserver/Docs/344.pdf

    EDIT- Page 130 should help you figure out if the MSD is getting a trigger or not. On page 32, I think, it shows the wiring schemes with TFI set ups.
    Last edited by qikgts; 11-20-2017 at 10:43 PM.
    '85 GT

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by qikgts View Post
    Take a look through this document. It should have a section relating to installations with TFI ignitions.

    http://www.exhaustgas.com/docserver/Docs/344.pdf

    EDIT- Page 130 should help you figure out if the MSD is getting a trigger or not. On page 32, I think, it shows the wiring schemes with TFI set ups.
    Great and thanks. Is it possible that if the magnetic pickup is bad the coil wouldn't be be getting spark or does the electrical flow go in the other direction?

  16. #16

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    All wires between components have unwavering (cold, hot, wiggled, etc.) continuity?...
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  17. #17
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    This should help you understand how the ignition circuit works. It comes from the '86 EVTM.

    Name:  ignition snip.JPG
Views: 777
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    '85 GT

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