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  1. #1

    Default 2.8 full rebuild and mods.

    Hello. This is, I think, my fist post, so I have to show you my 4-eyed Mustang : (79 2.8 automatic).
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    I have a 74 Mustang with a 2.8 engine - and I know some specialists are around on the forum.. and I need some "good tips" and comments :

    My pistons rings need to be replaced, we're picking the engine out this week for a full rebuild during winter :

    Here are the parts I want to use : (1974 Block "Z or PX type" with "non-smog" heads, (75TM 6090AA) RAD-4 factory transmission)
    - High compression pistons - overbore depending of what we'll find (Team Blitz)
    - Offenhauser 6007 intake.
    - Holley 0-8007 390 CFM carb.
    - mech. Fuel Pump FFP450 from burton power (UK) <4PSI
    - Full metal timing gears
    - Camshaft (burtonpower VT11XSB) Valve lift .409"/.414". Duration 270/280deg. Timing 32/58/73/27
    * OR Camshaft (burtonpower VT12XSB) Valve lift0.416" inlet/0.414" exhaust Duration 280/280deg. Timing 37/63/73/27
    - Standard full gaskset set
    - Stock manifolds
    * OR long 3->1 headers.
    - Mallory dist - 4760801 (NOS)
    - MALLORY HYFIRE IGNITION BOX 690, with new wires and spark plugs.

    - Machining heads to fit european 2.8 valves. (identical with bigger diameter) - should new seats be fitted in ? :
    >> US valve diam IN/EX : 1.5710 1.2680
    >> EURO " " IN/EX : 1.6575 1.4213
    Last edited by qwertz; 10-16-2017 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    qwertz

    09-02-2017 at 12:38 AM
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...d-Pintos/page2
    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    qwertz, this ones for you....

    US 2.8 cams as recomended by EthylCat

    See the previous two posts. I trust and engine builder with some engine analysing experience.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-options/page2

    http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...rformance.html

    http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-gu...ing-guide.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIWJ5mywo1I


    Ford Performance Article above is wrong in many instances...in an about the mid sixites, the 7 "litre" 500 Galaxie was the first US Ford to use the French "Liter" measure



    And the platform sharing of the Mustang and Falcon...yes, the dash, cowl and pressings were internally interchangble, but it was a short wheel base Fairline with less than fairlane and greater than Falcon tracks, the Pinto and Mustang II shared steering and brakes and engines and modified Pinto floor pan pressings...

    http://www.fordpinto.com/your-projec...lacement-pans/

    [img][/img]






    The rest of the car, as was said, was a home run. Here's why...












    The Fox took the same turret parameters (its interior and cowl and and narrow width hood and cat walk were pretty much Ford Mustang II), and


    the European Cortina Coil spring rear end, Cortina/Taunas Two door hard dimensions of steering rack, lower front coil springs, wheel base, track width,



    and mashed it up with the right kind of wheel arch space and great US Fairmont Fox hard dimensions...


    Four Eyed Foxers owe their all to the Mustang II.

  3. #3
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    There is no 6007 Offy intake for Ford's Cologne V6. Thats a Chevy 60 degree V6 part number


    To run the heads you want, you have to go to the earlier 2600 6115 Offenhauser intake, which will work with the European 75TM heads.

    The 2600 intake will be a rare piece to find.

    You cannot just mix European and US parts without knowing whats different.

    The intake manifold must have the same port sequence to fit the now European spec head , and the exhausts, Euro spec twin out let iron header.

    The Offenhauser 6096 intake cannot be fitted to European heads.

    See page 6 of 52 in the 1984 Offenhauser catalogue

    http://www.exeterautosupply.com/Docs...%20catalog.pdf




    The 75TM heads are similar to 2.8 Injection heads, they were easy 160 hp net power providers.

    You have to use the European 1978-early 1985 2.8 intake manifold, and the 38 DGAS Weber, European exhausts.

    Some later European heads have inserts for unleaded gas, the last Sierra XR4i and XR4X4i 2.8 engines.


    the European spec Ford pistons in high compression form will elevate compression back to European levels, but you have to check piston to valve clearance; they are a problem with these engines.

    Everything Ford Germany did for the USA market was on commision to the Dearborn engineeres. They were 10 years ahead of the European engines, and this was done because the North American market cars were destined for traffic jams and lack of oil changes, the colder Canadian and Hi Altitude climates, and also the extreame hot running Arizona/ Utah Death Valley like conditions.

    The European engines were designed for leaded gas and Autobahans and the British M1. The USA heads from 1974 onwards were totally different, and it wasn't untill 1985 that the specfication on Eu and USA spec 2.8 Colgne V6's became the same, but there were still variances.

    Interchangablity is definatley not total on the Mustang II 2.8

    The 75TM heads will be fine with bigger valves. Normally, Power Pack 2liter 1975-1979 RS2000 Escort valves can be used with the ends cut 30 thou and the tips heated cherry red.

    Valve seats need to be cut to suit, and 3 angle blended. Stealite inserts are a risk, but you can have them inserted if you decide on smaller 2.8 valves.


    Cam timing, I'd say go back a step to Burtonpower VT11XSB.

    Ford used the V4 cam profiles, which had a lot of duration, not much lift. There were no other cam masters, so the little 2.8 suffers badly with a lack of off idle torque compared to the 2.5 and 3.0 liter Essex engines. The advice of EthylCat is based on having a look at the air flow figures of either the US or European heads.


    The myriad differences between them is listed in these three places

    The book V6 Performance by Pat Ganahl Buick Ford chev 90/60 degree by S-A design books ISBN 0-931472-13-X


    How to Build and Modify Ford 60 Degree V-6 Engines (ISBN 0-87938-914-1) by Steve Pruett.


    So does this link
    "http://myplace.frontier.com/~capriclubchicago/Cologne.html"

    Intake and exhasut head flow on the Essex 60 degree 3 liter and 2.8 US Cologne are right down the line the same, so its the cam shaft and engine capacity that controls the low end torque.



  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The the stock 1977-1985 135 hp V6 in the German, English and non US export markets, such as this Turkish Granada, has dual out let, 5 port heads and a specific intake manifold with a Bosch electronic ignition.



    Your US 2.8 Mustang II engine is, in my opinion, better in every way, ignition, exhaust, head design.

    What the Mustang II lost was compression ratio, and it didn't have the later 29 mm venturi carb the European cars had. When the 2150 Motorcraft 1.08 carb was added with 27 mm venturia, it picked up 16 hp, from 93 to 109hp.

    It was the Weber DGAS 38 that gave the 135 hp carb 1978-1983 Granada a huge amount of top end power. The US 2.8 with its US 2150 2-BBL probably could have out shined a 302 2-BBL if Ford USA weren't careful, but the car was down on compression, and it would have done better with a 1.14 venturi carb (same as the European 38 Weber)

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-gu...ing-guide.html

    It doesn't tell you the difference in the US 2.8 like Four Eyed Pride does here.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...92#post1824792



    The Offenhauser 6115 is rare. There was a 6116DP revision, a 4-bbl top and 6115 base for 2.6's under the same part number.

    All the pictures show the 2.8 US 6096

    this one, with its non uniform intake port spacing which doesn't fit the European heads.




    The 6096 is for the US 2.8, and its intake port phasing is totally different.

    The last 6115 base sold on ebay was this....

    "This is an Offenhauser V6, 4-barrel intake manifold for a Capri 2.6 Liter. The number on the bottom is 6115- but this IS a 6116DP. Both the 6115 and the 6116 use the same base casting. The difference is the 6116DP has the 4 bbl top section, while the 6115DP has a 2 bbl top. The intake looks pretty good, and is in good shape. A little cleaning, and this should be a very nice looking, very nice performing intake!"

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Offenhauser-...p2047675.l2557

    Sold in Apr 12, 2016 , 7:42AM for US $399.95


    http://www.offyparts.com/product_inf...roducts_id/148

    Ford: 2600cc Capri 2bbl top kit for 6115 manifold base (6115-T)
    [offy-6115-T] $285.29
    Ford: 2600cc Capri 2bbl top kit for 6115 manifold base (6115-T)
    Click to enlarge

    Ford V-6 Mustang II, Capri, Pinto, Bronco II and Ranger
    Later vehicles such as Bronco II and Ranger must use 1983 or earlier stock distributor with vacuum advance or aftermarket equivilent. Manifolds also use 3 bolt water neck (Ford part # D2RY8592A)

    The 2 bbl manifold uses a stock 2 stage 2 bbl carb and delivers a definite performance increase throughout all RPM ranges plus a reduction in fuel consumption.

    NOTE: Some 1975 & up models come stock with a 1 stage 2 bbl carb. In these cases use early stock 2 stage or equivalent high performance replacement. This is the manifold top only.
    http://www.offyparts.com/product_inf...roducts_id/147
    Ford: 2600cc Capri Dual Port stock 2 stage 2 bbl (6115)
    [offy-6115-DP] $645.65
    Ford: 2600cc Capri Dual Port stock 2 stage 2 bbl (6115)
    Click to enlarge

    " Ford V-6 Mustang II, Capri, Pinto, Bronco II and Ranger
    Later vehicles such as Bronco II and Ranger must use 1983 or earlier stock distributor with vacuum advance or aftermarket equivilent. Manifolds also use 3 bolt water neck (Ford part # D2RY8592A)

    The 2 bbl manifold uses a stock 2 stage 2 bbl carb and delivers a definite performance increase throughout all RPM ranges plus a reduction in fuel consumption.

    "
    The Sunbeam and MG guys use the little 2.6 with its European style heads

    one with a 6115 was for sale in Mar 2, 2015

    http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?42,2931026




    Personal opinion from jalopyjournal.com
    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/....729727/page-3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth S
    You could swap the heads, but it's not an exact bolt on. As you noticed the intake port location, and bolts are different. The 2.8 has newer design changes than the 2.6 so things like the water passages are different, you would have to plug water passages, and re-drill them. It's not worth doing the 2.6 to 2.8 (or vice versa) head swap, the 2.6 heads don't perform near as good as the 2.8's. If it were me I'd find a complete 2.6, or sell the 2.6 intake, and find a 2.8 intake. I'd do the 2.8, the 2.6's are harder to find these days while the 2.8's are still plentiful.
    Note;
    Copyright 1995-2013 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Okay, the intake manifold for a European head has even intake runner spacings and siamesed twin out let heads.


    This is a 2.6 with the very rare 6115 Offy intake and 4-bbl carb, and tubing headers for an non Fuel injected RS2600 replica.


    That supports the European 2.8 heads, but there are major head gasket and water gallery matters which would require JB Weld and arc/ stick welding to organise the heads to fit. Ford of Europe made the US 2.8 block a little different to the European one





    Here is the 4-bbl Tom Morana Racing conversion to the stock US 2.8 2-BBL intake



    The stock 6096 2.8 Offenhauser has these spacings, the US 2.8 Mustang II spacings



    The European 2.8, these spacings again.





    Here is more info on the variations, pasted from http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ropean-changes

    The US 2.8 intake manifold port spacings varied from the earlier Capri 2.6 as well.


    The intake port spacing changes were in relation to where Ford Germany was eventually planning to going with the 2.9 head in 1987. The US 2.8 was clearly done as a planned new emission engine.

    the 09/70 to 12/73 gasket intake manifold V6 2,6i 150HP RS 2600




    INLET/INTAKE MANIFOLD GASKET FORD CAPRI 2.3 2.8/Ford Capri 2.8 Injection IM142




    The US 2.8 intake was different



    Ford US had a pick of unleaded heads; the 2.6 carb based twin outlet V4 manifolded 2.3 'B' or 'F' and 2.8 'D' or 'E' heads were used on some European P100/Scorpio/Granada/Sierra/ Capri cars untill 1987. The 2.8 US changes were made after access to the 2.6 Mechanical Injection RS 2600 had gotten Weslake heads.

  7. #7

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    Sorry, I admit I don't have the 79 fox anymore, but I have a 74 Mustang II Mach I that came with V6.

    I mentioned a wrong reference for offy intake (copy paste...) righ PN is #6097-DP (have 1 in the car, and 1 on the shelf, with "US-style" flow path for both.

    Sorry it was not clear, I don't want Euro Heads, but euro Valves ! I'll use US-style heads, but wanted to fit in the Euro valves which are exactly the same, but 2.1mm/3.9mm wider... I don't know if it is possible to cut the seat, of if new seats have to be installed.


    This is my engine as it is now : already with VT11xsb cam, with bad pistons rings - 390CFM holley carb and the 6097 intake...
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    Thinking my wife could find the bill, I'll use the parts I have and probably keep the factory 74 heads withtout major mods (put larger valves, shops ask a million dollar for that).

    I have Sven Pruett's book - but no experience in engine tuning-rebuild and already made so many mistakes with self-repair projects, so I give the job to my local shop.

    First step : checking the block for cracks or bad cylinders - and what pistons (overbore) will fit, with hich compression (you scared me with the possible valve interfereance !)
    Last edited by qwertz; 10-17-2017 at 07:14 AM.

  8. #8
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I understand from my work with old British Leyland Minis that German TV Sud and the Netherlands Rijkswaterstaat and ILT takes care of public liablity the same way. Zero modifications.

    The solution is pretty simple. Add 26% more capacity. That will give you about 200 PS with that cam. And 27 kg/m torque.



    This is the German 4 liter crank, which Tom Morana re profiles to fit the 2.9 EFi engine. It has a stud girdle, and the pre-requiste crank





    You can buy any old common 4 liter 3.35 " (85,09 mm) Explorer crank, OHV, or SOHC per bank.


    cut the shank on the front down, and put in some 3.3 or 3.7 liter 3.7" diameter Chrysler 1.26" (32 mm compression height, 0.945", 24 mm wrist pin) pistons, better Burtons Power Farndon H-section 5.14" (130.55 mm) steel rods
    and get another 748 cm3 (3.541 liters, as big as a DAF Sherpa 3.5 v8 )

    Then you can legally keep your stock Offenhasuer intake and use the old Holley Weber 5200, but convert it to mechanical simultanoues opertation, and bore out the left and right venturis from 26 and 27 mm to 30 and 31 mm. Cfm goes up from 227 to 262 cfm, or from 290 to 334 cfm as rated as a 2-bbl Holley. 336 cfm if you remove the cold start choke.

    This is the stock 5200 Holley Weber, which can be routed out and still work, as well as flow 336 cfm at 3" Hg like this one by Mercury Marc did in this picture below. (An Aussie told him how to do it!)



    Its covered in




    How-to-Modify-Ford-s-o-h-c-Engines-David-Vizard

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/26804743/H...-Vizard#scribd


    Page 67, 68 and 69


    It was mounted on that unbelievable 90 degree adaptor from the Mercury 2.6/2.8 Capri and Mustang II /Pinto V6's used

    .

    It bolts down onto the later Offy adaptor you have, and allows space to fit the linkages.


    Headers are illegal, but the stock headers are pretty efficent despite what people say.

    An engine like that would have 5.0 liter power with 4.2 liter toque and be a lot of fun to drive.

  9. #9

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    Because inspection office does not have the Microfiche reader anymore for such old cars, and because no emission control is necessary for car built before -1976; all the mods done are "invisible" for non specialists... offy intake; Holley 8007 carb; HEADERS (shiny chrome plus noise!); lack of thermactor pump.. and even automatic to RAD-4 transmission swap..

    This stroker mod looks fabulous... the guy I gave the rebuild mission would be really scared-

  10. #10

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    Swing for the fences!

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Read http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...15#post1814315

    Quote Originally Posted by Fears2fatalashes View Post
    So I stumbled upon this thread in looking at what I can do to gain some horse power.

    I have a 1974 Mustang II Ghia with the American 2.8l v6.. I haven't made 100% sure which I have but I have either the 32/36 Weber carburetor or 38.. DGEV. From what I can tell the motor is not modified same with the heads. I did have to replace the distrubuter about a year ago.

    From what I was reading:

    US 2800 has supprisngly good air flow but the US 2.8 is mising port area, and compression, and camshaft duration

    The US Colgne head was well designed, needs a good de-dag and some better valves. To raise compression, you deck the head, and cut back the manifold. Or go to the European pistons

    Does that about sum it up or did I miss something?
    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Okay, confession time.

    The US Cam duration was the same!. A racey 276 intake and 278 exhaust. Just like the first E303 roller cam 5.0's practically! No wonder they all lack low end to lower mid range punch!
    And all 5 pages of 82GTforME's rebuild http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-options/page5

    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME
    For the engine we rebuilt, I did the porting recommendations from the book: How to Build and Modify Ford 60 Degrees V-6 Engines by Sven Pruett.

    The book actually never recommended decking the heads. I'd have to pull it out and reread that part to clarify the reasons why. The machine shop that did my line boring, honing and short blocking never recommended changing the cam for a "stock" engine as they said it was good. We did have a three angle valve job and valve grind done. We also added a dual exhaust to the smoothed out factory siamese exhaust manifolds.

    To date we are happy with the performance other than the want to change to a manual from the C3 in it now
    IMHO, Just a basic rebuild with all your extra modifications will do. 82GTforME's was a very smart rebuild, for less money.


    Get some confidence back. Then smash a home run later on.

    The Cologne block, all of them, OHC's, Taunus 60 degrees, they are quite nice castings done with Teutonic finese, but they aren't prefect. A stroker engine needs a very confident but hard nosed Dutch guy to make it happen. The UK guys like PowerDyne used to do 2.8 XR4i and Injection Capri strokers, but the block and crank need crack testing and clearancing checks, and better quality rods, rod bolts, and resizing of the bore to suit the kind of pistons that are to be used....normally forged Cima 2000 OHC or Sierra Cosworth 2 liter slugs, and the bore quality and attention needs to be excepetionally good.

    The crank for a 2.8 needs the TRW timing gear, and an easy but rather expensive crank snout trim back from the chain driven 2.9 system the 4 liter OHV and SOHC per bank engines used, so it fits the 2.8.

    I planed one back in 2001 with AU Falcon Mahale (ACL Repco) hypereutectic pistons and uprated 2.8 con rods, but I had another in line six cylinder Cortina 4.1 project with forged pistons being built, so I just opted out. The blocks don't like huge over bores, but they did over bore them for the European Touring car Challange that the 1973 RS 2600 (bored out to 2.9 liters) won against BMW. So its an engine with immense potential. If it can handle the vibration of a Sabb V4 without cracking, a stroker 3.5 v6 is easy.

    Despite the reference like this everywhere in the Tangerine Machine post



    There are still 19 pages and 434 pictures in 82GTforME's Photobucket.

    I'm able to relink some those lost engine pictures if need be.


    http://s1337.photobucket.com/user/82...?sort=2&page=1





    Swing for the fences, for sure, but I'd plan a stroker 3.5 liter later on.




    Dream of this later




    Save some extra coin for a T5 swap instead...the SR4 is very similar, and there's space for a T5, and it would love a set of good 8" axle gears to make it fun.

    If you have some spare Cologne V6 parts, plan another block build up for a stroker later on.

    Good fortune...

  12. #12

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    Then engine was totally disassembled today : everything is worn out, pitted, moving parts have ard points, even rockers. grinded metal everywhere... it's 100Kg of over-worn smelly iron.


    Sadly, it would be a waste of cash to rebuild it... becos here, good shops are rare, and rare things are expensive, - VERY expensive - and parts are not common...

    It's a big U-turn in my head, - but I decided I'll buy a rebuilt block, probably like the ones Team Blitz offers on ebay; close to stock, HC pistons, camshaft, intake and carb, that's it.
    with some regrets, the stroker will remain a dream, I'm on the wrong continent for that, and I have a family to feed; I simply want to enjoy my car on sunny sundays.


    and thank you for this HUGE amount of detailed informations and links, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions.

    some pics : https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApAHDD7ezd3FhcRt6I0f3j7A-5Nd5w
    Last edited by qwertz; 10-18-2017 at 04:57 PM.

  13. #13
    FEP Supporter 82GTforME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    There are still 19 pages and 434 pictures in 82GTforME's Photobucket.

    I'm able to relink some those lost engine pictures if need be.

    http://s1337.photobucket.com/user/82...?sort=2&page=1

    xctasy thanks for linking all of my posts and the link to my PB page. It has remained public since the terms and conditions were changed. While Photobucket has screwed my threads, I am changing all of the 3rd party hosing links to direct links to my PB account. I have plans to set up my own hosting capabilities...one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertz View Post
    Then engine was totally disassembled today : everything is worn out, pitted, moving parts have ard points, even rockers. grinded metal everywhere... it's 100Kg of over-worn smelly iron.
    Sadly, it would be a waste of cash to rebuild it... becos here, good shops are rare, and rare things are expensive, - VERY expensive - and parts are not common...
    It's a big U-turn in my head, - but I decided I'll buy a rebuilt block, probably like the ones Team Blitz offers on ebay; close to stock, HC pistons, camshaft, intake and carb, that's it.
    with some regrets, the stroker will remain a dream, I'm on the wrong continent for that, and I have a family to feed; I simply want to enjoy my car on sunny sundays.
    and thank you for this HUGE amount of detailed informations and links, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions.
    some pics : https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApAHDD7ezd3FhcRt6I0f3j7A-5Nd5w
    That's a shame qwertz. I hope you can find a solution. We enjoy the 2.8 in our car. We planned to do the "stock" thing other than the porting and exhaust to start with for the restoration. One day the Offy intake, the Holley 390 and one of the cams that EthylCat recommended will go in to it. That and an SROD!

    Where are you from?
    Last edited by 82GTforME; 10-18-2017 at 11:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Travis T View Post
    I think this is my favorite car on the site right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by BLUECRAPI
    This is the best thread on the internet.
    Darran
    1982-1C (Black) T-Top GT RestoMod:http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...he-Road-Thread
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    1979 (85:Tangerine) Coupe (my son's): http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...gerine-Machine
    1979 (3F:Light Medium Blue) Coupe (one day to be my other son's!) http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...other-79-Coupe!

  14. #14

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    I'm in Switzerland - where Cologne engines are (were) everywhere; but not their US version. I can find a block for cheap, but never know how good or bad it is inside...
    Like this one for example, but over 600$ to be unsure, and with shops asking a million for rebuilding them... I prefer to buy it on US market where engine building/tuning is a "common" job.

    https://www.anibis.ch/fr/d-automobil...&view=2&fcid=0



    As said, my solution is to buy a professionnally rebuilt block by Team Blitz, add my intake and carb - and enjoy the car.

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