Build thread - 1985 Mustang Saleen (clone?)

[erratic50]

99GTMichael - that is extremely good input! Thank you!

Its easy to tighten stuff up - about one stroke on the cap with a nice new file and you're in business. Harder to loosen stuff up.

checking clearances dry with plastigauge is always your friend if you want an engine to stay together.



Well - as a long time coming update, I finally found a correct blank ash tray plaque and someone willing to mark it.

Like everything else on the car - it will get the clearest sign of being a clone ever.

85-0006


Its taken a LONG time to find that particular part. I believe I have all of the Saleen specific badges and other parts now finally.


I noticed some variation the other day in the susensions on the 85-86 Saleens. Sometimes the entire rear diff is and swaybar is painted red to match the springs, sometimes its not. Not sure why - just an observation.

So many unique things about each early car, that's for sure.

[erratic50]

Nothing holding things up at the moment that I am aware of. the shop should have the rotating assembly balanced with the flywheel and balancer later this week. Then it will be time for some assembly.

I'm still searching around Omaha and Lincoln area for a dyno cell where we can get this combo tuned up once its put together and running.

IMO a good dyno result will certainly improve the value of the car, and that is the point. Otherwise I'd simply put it on an engine run stand and make sure its OK after a few heat cycles.

[cougman67]

Looks great. I never thought I would be complete my pace car before you are done the Saleen.

[erratic50]

Time to chase down an update on the 331 ......

[erratic50]

331 is back from the machinist and balancing - ready for assembly. That will get started next week. Hopefully there won’t be too many unexpected things happening with it since it’s just a basic 331

A picture of the very last badge I was chasing

[85MUSTANGTGT]

Glad to hear you're making some progress. Looking forward to more updates.

[Bryan Knebworth]

That Tribute is looking on-point. If you haven't purchased the Headlight Covers yet, PM me. They are clear-plexi, '85-'86, New In Box. I have absolutely zero use for them. Also, kudos to Trey for a job well-done

[erratic50]

That Tribute is looking on-point. If you haven't purchased the Headlight Covers yet, PM me.

It would look killer with them. I had more or less given up on finding them...... I’ll send a PM

[erratic50]

Well .... the verdict is in.

#1 - I was off a decimal place in my last post discussing my plans on tolerances

#2 - plans are one thing, execution another. She’s loose. Like 2 dollar whore with every type of bad disease loose.

notice the plastigauge confirms the mic measurements and that’s blue gauge when green is what’s needed in the range required. This thing wouldn’t even register on a piece of green gauge!

If I was in a huge rush to get a motor to run or I was at the track and just needed it to go a few rounds I would take a few licks off the end of the main caps with a brand new flat file and get it down to at least 0.0025 then send it. But that’s not the situation.

I would say when it was line honed they did not take the caps down to allow honing back to tolerance first .....

It makes me question piston clearance numbers with the bores and other things like that now too. I hate to always assume other people are going to mess up and keep checking and rechecking work but at the same time I have a **** ton of money in this motor and this car in general and it needs to be right.

To restate my goal correctly this time — 0.0014 for all rod bearings and rear 4 main bearings. 0.0013 for the front main to avoid accessory drive induced knock

Now to go through it all with a fine tooth comb and make sure it is where it needs to be.

The book pictured is my dad’s 1973 engine rebuild manual. Not sure what he used before - probably an edition of this book. In my lifetime this book has been the Bible in my family when it comes to fixing and building motors. Back in high school it was what we used to figure out what factory parts combos were available so we could figure out what mismatch of “good junk” parts would work well together too.

[WILWAXU]

331 is back from the machinist and balancing - ready for assembly. That will get started next week. Hopefully there won’t be too many unexpected things happening with it since it’s just a basic 331

A picture of the very last badge I was chasing

That badge should be fun around Saleen guys The look of confusion will be priceless.

[erratic50]

There will be a few that are furious about it I’m sure. Thing is some really famous people in the car world are following this build.... going to make it as accurate of a tribute as we can

[Jalapeno5]

You are quite invested in this project! Nice work.

[99GTMichael]

4 thou on a rod journal? Wow. What are you going to do to cut that down to your specs?

[erratic50]

Well ....... if I was in a hurry I’d use a flat file and knock a little off the end of each end of the main caps and get it into tolerance that way

what’s going to happen in this instance is back to the machinist. It was line honed and apparently they didn’t knock the caps down a little first so now it’s too loose

the other option they may push for is a different bearing. Maybe a +0.0025 bearing set.

Something has to give. It can’t go together like this

[xctasy]

There will be a few that are furious about it I’m sure. Thing is some really famous people in the car world are following this build.... going to make it as accurate of a tribute as we can

Best Saleen In the World (tribute....)

[erratic50]

The + size bearings are more expensive than a damn line hone and retank ..... and yet guess what the machinist is pushing for.

I already own the set of bearings I planned to run. None of the majorly reputable brands have this type of nonsense available - it’s the half breed crap with names I’ve never heard of.

not happy about the idea of trusting anything but what I know for the bottom end.

I think I’ll start with telling the machinist to fix it or swap me for a set of the correct bearings. See how bad he wants to avoid fixing it when it’s his money going out the door instead.

And let’s face it — most people bring engines home and slap them together. This one would have went BOOM if we had done that !

[BMW Rider]

Wouldv'e had trouble with oil pressure for sure with that high of clearances. Being the mains it would not be as likely to grenade itself, a rod at that spec wouldn't last long though. I'd expect them to fix the line bore if it were mine.

[erratic50]

That's where I'm at with it as well. I just have to find a polite way to break it to the guy. For some reason he's pissed off..... as if anyone other than him messed up. Friggin people.

[BMW Rider]

I don't know if he was just being sloppy or had a case of crebral flatulance with that line bore. Way back in days of old when I was building engines, I always measured the crank journals and the bearing shells, then determined the optimal bore size for the mains and rods and sized them accordingly. A quick verification with plastigauge on assembly would always prove out the measurements. I could get the clearances dead on the specs, usually favouring the tight end of the range. My own engine which I built myself and did all the machining for runs a solid 50 psi oil pressure at idle with a standard oil pump.

[Flyin'Montdude]

That's where I'm at with it as well. I just have to find a polite way to break it to the guy. For some reason he's pissed off..... as if anyone other than him messed up. Friggin people.

As a professional engine builder and machinist, I have to point out that your crankshaft is way out of spec. Standard shaft diameter for a 302 main should be 2.2482-2.2490". Most performance cranks will be in the middle to bottom(smaller) of that range. The measurements in the picture show 2.2445 and 2.2450, a variance of .0005 between journals, which BTW is awful. Most decent performance cranks all the journals will be within .0001 - .0002" of each other. What brand crankshaft is it?

The clearances listed in your book are for a stock rebuild. Good rule of thumb for clearances in a hot rod motor is .001" of clearance per inch of shaft diameter, so for your mains .0023". Factory rod journals are 2.123, so .0021 is a good number for them.

If your crank was actually in spec, say 2.2485 shaft diameter and using your bearing ID measurements from above your bearing clearance would be .001 to .0015. Then you would probably be looking at needing an STDX bearing which would give you a .001" more clearance than a STD bearing, resulting in .002 - .0025" bearing clearance. Needing the STDX bearings is not uncommon especially if the main bores are on the small side of spec.

In my opinion, your crankshaft is the issue, not necessarily the main bearing bore. You can verify if the spec is correct if you can have someone check the housing bore with a dial bore gauge(preferred) or an I.D. micrometer, the spec is 2.4412-2.4420. Like the mains, the bores should all be within .0001 - .0002 of each other.

It is also worth mentioning the torque applied to the main cap bolts can change the size and shape of the bores as well. Be certain you and your machinist are using the same torque value AND thread lubricant. The actual force(aka stretch) can vary significantly between oil and ARP ultra lube.

One final thing I have to point out. I know you are not the first person to do or suggest such a thing and I realize it has "worked" for you in the past, but is not the correct way to fix it. Please please don't ever take a file to the bottom of a main cap or a rod bearing cap! Those are precisely machined to be a round bore, once you take material off in that manner, it is now no longer round, but oval. Also, it is pretty difficult to keep a file cut square and so if it is filed uneven front to back, you now have introduced taper in the bore too. As a machinist, it makes me think of someone using a chain saw to make a cut on a piece of fine furniture!..lol..

I'm sorry your having trouble with your project. I have been following this thread, and although I don't normally get to post much I love the car! You have some great vision and Trey has some skillz!

[erratic50]

Thanks for the post!

We measured stuff with a mic and also assembled the engine with plastigauge which confirmed what we were seeing. Its just plain ol out of whack.

And while I agree with you on the Scat crank being one of the places it is a bit out of of whack. The info on that particular stroker kit from Scat said the crank journals have to be turned to final fit and finish. The rods were fit to the crank journals and numbered.

Possibly done that way because the the variances in the blocks you mentioned? Not sure. It also required balancing with the balancer and flywheel I'm planning to run.

I suspect the kit is done that way because of the amount things fluctuate until a line hone is done.

I don't disagree that going a little beyond book specs for tolerances is not only just fine but possibly even advised if I'm spinning this thing pretty high RPM at times.

Years ago when I had a hand in putting together a pretty decent number of engines including several for the street and for bomber class and stock car circle track. I always tired to stick to the loose end of the ranges in my dad's book. Over time we got the sense that we knew it was right when amount of torque needed to turn the rotating assembly over had dropped off quite a bit and yet you don't see any noticeable drops in oil pressure or durability.

One other factor on bearing tolerances...... We were always in the camp of using a standard volume pump but running high oil pressure on purpose. Less power spent on a pump and tear-downs showed oiling was adequate. Volume climbs up quite a bit as pressure increases but not so much that we had all of the typical high volume problems. Needing a larger pan, etc. Running a looser bearing would have mandated a high volume pump and then you have the problems to solve like oil return paths, etc. Of course high pressure sometimes mandates things like thread in oil galley plugs. We were on an extremely tight budget but liked to win. Lift loss on a hydraulic lifter at high RPM is influenced greatly by oil pressure and we were going for ever ounce of power we could squeeze out of a stock type motor with mostly all stock parts. We were throwing in good fasteners on the rods then spinning the motors way beyond what they originally designed for. We were using what was basically a body shop paint scale to get the mass of each part we put in within 0.01 grams of one another. Spent hours on each piston, rod, bearing, pin, etc. The motors built like that would usually run week after week all season long. A few times they went into a hotrod over the winter to get extra innings of beatings.

We were sometimes forced to sell our motors for cheap after a class win ...... For me one of the fun part was our builds could be tore down and rebuilt by our competition without them actually figuring out why it ran like it did before (winning races). So for them .... after a quick refresh tossed the special tweaks we had done it was just like any other turd they had built because it was back to making crap for oil pressure and not getting the lift needed to make power. Loved seeing it out there the next week with fresh paint and a complete turd.

I think where I am at with this build is the crank probably needs to be turned on the mains then matched to new bearings. That makes my new bearing kit I spent my hard earned cash on garbage but its the correct way to solve it IMO. Cheaper than specialty bearings from brands I do not know and do not trust..

When one guy has the tools, the block, and the parts in hand and sends something out the door as "ready to run" and its this far from it ..... it points back to one guy who is operating the equipment as the real source of the problem

If I were the average shade tree mechanic it would have went together and into the car without ever even being fired. It would have carried crap for oil pressure from day 1, may or may not have knocked. It would have eventually blown itself apart most likely.

Not happy but we'll get it sorted one way or another.

[erratic50]

Good discussion on tolerances

https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...ng-clearances/

[erratic50]

Progress update

We are going to go back to the machinist with the request to turn the crank then +0.10 the bearings and get the tolerances in check. The cost of a specialty bearing is insane and absolutely not worth it. We brought everything there to have the needed machining completed and it shouldn't have ever left their shop the way it was.

I touched base with FTI on lifters and pushrods for the build.

They are recommending

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/mor...r-lifters-sbf/


My research suggested that the stock lifter spiders are prone to metal fatigue and failure over time when you go past 0.512. That's why Ford Racing stops there. Link bars are cheap insurance.

These days a lot of lifters cut back the body of the lifter claiming performance improvement by reduced weight. While that may have some merit, it only goes so far with higher lift applications like the 0.606 the cam Ed designed for my engine produces.

I noticed in the fine print that several of these same lifters do not expect lift past 0.550 (as measured with a 1.6:1 rocker). If you look at them, there isn't much material to support the lifter in the bore. Compounded with a heavy spring like the ones I'm using its risking a lifter chewing up the lifter bore and send metal through the engine

They also suggested these pushrods ordered to length
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/fti...-16-push-rods/

If you look at the geometry at the rocker there is a valid discussion to be had about how close to 180 degrees the rocker movement on the pushrod actually gets to, but 210 is a nice additional margin of safety and these have the necessary strength to handle the cam profile.

So once we get closer to having a rotating assembly solved I'll start looking more seriously at lifters, etc. Until then, it just makes for good discussion.

[Flyin'Montdude]

And while I agree with you on the Scat crank being one of the places it is a bit out of of whack. The info on that particular stroker kit from Scat said the crank journals have to be turned to final fit and finish. The rods were fit to the crank journals and numbered.

Possibly done that way because the the variances in the blocks you mentioned? Not sure.

I suspect the kit is done that way because of the amount things fluctuate until a line hone is done.

I like and use a lot of Scat cranks. They are a good crank for the money. I don't see any listed in their catalog that require finishing. They all show to come from Scat already ground to size and polished. Maybe it was special order or something. Interesting to hear about for sure.

The variances in the block I was referring to was the size of the bore the main bearings snap inside of - the hole or "housing bore" formed by the main cap and the block. The 2.4412-2.4420" dimensions I listed is the range of size the main bearing housing bore should be sized to during the line hone operation. These dimensions will affect what size the I.D. of the main bearings will measure when assembled and torqued into the housing bore. The smaller the housing bore is the smaller the bearing I.D. will be and vice versa. So the bearing clearance can be tuned somewhat by adjusting the housing bore size during the line hone. However you must remain within the spec listed above to ensure proper crush of the bearing. Crush is important to keep the bearing from spinning(housing bore too big) or being distorted(housing bore too small).

As a side note, many people believe the bearing tang keeps the bearing from spinning. This is absolutely NOT true! It is crush that keeps it from spinning. The tang is there to locate the bearing during assembly. I have built engines adapting different bearings than originally used from another application and filed the tangs completely off. None of them have ever spun a bearing!

When one guy has the tools, the block, and the parts in hand and sends something out the door as "ready to run" and its this far from it ..... it points back to one guy who is operating the equipment as the real source of the problem

I agree. Not knowing the whole story between you and your machinist, I was hoping that the crank being out of spec was the issue and that was why I wanted to point that out, so maybe it could get sent back or something.

Progress update

We are going to go back to the machinist with the request to turn the crank then +0.10 the bearings and get the tolerances in check.

Obviously this choice is between you and your machinist, but for what it is worth, I agree it is probably the best course of action at this point. Especially considering the crank has already been balanced.

Glad to hear everything is on the way to being resolved!

[erratic50]

Just found out after some prodding with the machine shop on how the hell the block numbers were that different that they charged for line honing but never actually DID it. SERIOUSLY?!

they should be glad I have friends helping me that can deal with them because man I’m at the find me a rope stage right now. I’ll hang them by their nut sack.

my friend is still worried about pissing the machinist off..... what the f - he’s the last person who should be pissed off. Dip **** didn’t do his one and only damn job

How many fn times can different “professionals” completely BOTCH an engine build for one damn car?!

Absolutely way beyond fed up with all of this.

frankly it might be the whiskey talking but I’m past tired of being at all nice. I’m more towards the of better start thinking I’ll pound someone deserving into a hole if the try to screw me from here on out. I’ve won an 8 on one so maybe it’s my turn for some dip-**** to worry. sorry but nice just isn’t working and I’m done being nice

this new generation with any stupid theory on accountability are about to figure out the difference between a chicken and a hog weather they like it or not.... just keeping acting like the chicken on this one

I don’t fly off the handle but I also don’t sit by and get screwed.