With Mopar Sedans Dead, Ford, GM Looking To Do The Same

[ZephyrEFI]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...ans/103973922/

Building on my earlier post about FCA killing the 200 and Dart. This still seems really short-sighted to me. GM, not so much, i guess. They have too many product lines, but for Ford, anyway. Gas prices are GOING to go back up, and look what happened in 2008 when all the US automakers were caught with long-neglected car lines no one wanted. Only difference is this time, they'll have NOTHING in those segments rather than bad products. And of course looking at the longer term, the planet is going to run out of oil entirely, so why waste more of it with moves like this? Is anyone really still doubting climate change is real after the butt-kicking Florida and Texas just got? Seriously?!

Anyway, getting back to the article itself, it's not that strange to me Buick may cancel the LaCrosse. It's a lame product. And this idea of theirs the Regal can be a wagon-only is just stupid. I like wagons as much as the next guy, but Americans buy sedans all day over wagons. This may have just been fantasy, but I read somewhere recently they're considering a "Buick Firebird/Trans Am". Again, that's just stupid. Why sell a very close copy of the Camaro when you could offer something unique on the same architecture. I've also heard better-substantiated rumors Buick is considering resurrecting the Grand National/GNX name for a turbo V6 sedan. That makes a ton more sense to me. Buick would be drawing on its OWN performance past and not competing directly with a Chevy product. AND, it would slot nicely in place of the LaCrosse. AND it would bring back and affordable RWD sedan offering now that Chevy has canceled the SS.

[gr79]

Four doors, vans, used to be much less common. Most people could buy a car/truck.
They now shrink car size for 'economy', then tripled its weight, hp.
Our cars do basically everything new ones do while a lot simpler.
All have capability to build a simpler to manufacture. Cut back on tech, robots, etc.
Seen a VW Thing the other day. Well its basic, but an idea that can be built upon.
Like the 80's k cars and fox platforms, plus others like VW, etc. Long runs, minor changes.

If anyone here can buy new, thats ok. Keeps the ball rolling. That what we work for.
But not to spend hard earned dollars on overpriced everything.

Most every business that sells anything are so into markup, profits do not see it will kill them in the end? Greed.
They don't care? Move on to something else and do it again and again?
Cars have little profit margin, so they say. So what? Who are they in business for? Themselves?
So expensive no wonder cars are not selling. Same price hd vehicles that may last longer at least until paid for.
And a bitch to drive, park, keep up, because of bulk.

What about older customers who want a simple affordable new car payoff 3-5 years.
Something practical easy to drive to store, work, or pleasure. No distracting crap, 400 hp, 10 speed auto trans needed.
We do not have the desire or interest to learn to fly or play with these products.
And not have to buy 10 year old used cars from who knows what they did to it or where its been.
Not have to feel stupid being seen in something weird because that's all that's out there.
No to lease or 7 years of big payments and insurance due to high msrp.

Industry targets affluent customers. F the rest. High profit low volume.
Because the industry lacks the ability to build in bulk anymore. Product is too complex.
Computers have added a huge burden in the name of 'modernizing' the whole process.
Bosses constantly on phone, checking e-mail, texting, talking. Workers watching video, gaming, texting on the job.
Poor factory worker now has to do tech-like tasks, at stagnant wages of 15 years ago.
Its push push push comprising quality and safety. They all do it. Mc D style. the new old way.
High turnover, constant need to train. They think robots, tech devices can build cars.
This stuff breaks down regularly, delaying production like absent employees would or worse.
Cant consistently manufacture in quantity fast enough to meet production goals.
Not enough any skill workers to meet the over scheduling forces mandatory ot upon workers in place.
Not enough any skill workers can hack the brutal work schedules. Monster Energy, Red Bull the norm.
Many non-skill are temp workers and can get laid off at any time, like regular workers always have to deal with.
Have to keep switching jobs to find a direct hire sane and steady income one with benefits for the family.


Auto companies and govt mandates keep piling on the junk with its huge fixed costs.
Gee why is the lot full, 120 day inventory?
Strange looking generic 4 wheel objects that do everything but fly in the air (so far). Blah colors too.
But they for some reason, not passing any cost cuts and savings to lower the msrp so people can afford them comfortably.
They keep this money for profit. To squander on wild ideas, upper employees creating new high tech and job security for themselves.
At a rate no one can keep track of, nor have time to The job smokescreen.
Come 2019 contract time; ohh sales are down, layoffs. Average worker does not make 60 an hour. No way.


Forget spending on auto driving stuff. Enough is enough. Will be a very limited market due again to cost.
Hell, now better chance of surviving a major rollover accident. But why not train drivers CDL or police spec?
Why smart cars, roads, dumb drivers? How did this happen? The u-turn of thinking and economics?

[xctasy]

Sedans and traditional station wagons are dead. Electronic Stability Programs have made the three box low lying "Chevy Chase " interstate cruiser a gonner. No ground clearance, no departure angle safety, and no ability to go "bush wackin".

The new scheme is no a$$ cross overs with pre war, pre 1948 proportions, right about the time the three box 49er Ford and "Comming and Going" Studebaker Commander and Starlite came out.

An increasingly aging populaton with higher BMI and more hip problems is where its at, and the 1949 to 2008 era cars are dead.

And wipe the thought of sedan platform sharing for the revitalised Phoney Pony Cars (PPC's). That only downgrades the platform, and wrecks the ability to fine tune the coupe design by then raising the hip lines too much. Its optimised designs, suitable for purpose from the get go that designers focus on.


Ford Australia, Ford England all tried to do it with the Falcon and Mondeo. The Falcon , they Aussies wanted a a free engineering base to share with the Mustang, and the Cougar was the Mondeo coupe. The GTO was the Holden Commodore's Monaro Coupe, and my goodness did it look like a cup of spew when they couldn't lower the hip line enough to get the car lower.

All "three box" box top cars are dead. Keep yours Brad, its just awesome.

Car design is in reversion to monocoque 1936 to 1947 two box designs, with no trunk, taller wheels, higher hip line, and the specialty coupes, the PPC's, are all suposed to be like Ferrari F550's, Maseratis and, gasp, Hyundai Coupes.

The future will be hybridised electro-gasoline traction control and more multiple purpose, SUV'ish stuff on two box forms.

The the 1982 X over AMC Eagle, 1984 Voyager, 1997 Plymouth Prowler and 2005 Chrysler PT Cruiser are where things are heading. Phoney Ponies and what has happened with the Focus and Transit Connect and the real future is the smaller, taller platforms as high performance cars.

(I'd like to see a smaller Focus or Transit Connect with a V8 and fourwheel drive).





It all started first with Harry Ferguson (Ferguson Formula 4WD) and then the reaction to it was the tall body Range Rover...Jeep and AMC have bascially copied emerging trends from the British Isles, and its Chrysler that has always moved first.

[homer302]

Sorry if I am a little off topic but I LOVE reading articles about the cars people buy these days. They say wagons don't sell when in REALITY, it is far and away the best selling platform on the planet. It's just that they can't market them as a wagon because that word is not cool so they take the exact same product and call it an "SUV" or "CUV" and as usual, Americans are what we are so we buy that...CUV, that's my favorite...Crossover...yeah, that's it. Sit down; you're driving a station wagon. Not ALL of them but damn near all of them. The like to use the word "SUV" because I guess it makes them feel cool. Guess what, if you have a Dodge Journey...it's a station wagon. All Subarus....station wagons...Ford Edge, yep that's a station wagon. Somehow if they make it taller, the American buyers of today have no problem buying a station wagon. At the end of the day, it's a station wagon. Just a little taller. There is no difference. You're not going into the woods camping sweetheart, you're going for a Spa and you're driving a station wagon there.

[homer302]

Sedans and traditional station wagons are dead.

After the big three American TRUCKS...again, after American TRUCKS, the best selling vehicle of any type in the US last year was a sedan (Camry). So was #5, #6 and #7. All sedans. So what exactly do you base that on? OR are you saying sometime IN THE FUTURE, you THINK sedans are dead.

You have VERY ACCURATELY worded your statement "traditional" station wagons. That is precisely it. They are all still station wagons though but you are 100% correct, not "traditional". Just the same as a 2017 Mustang is not what anyone on the planet would consider a "traditional" Mustang. They are larger than a 1977 Lincoln and also heavier, they have heated steering wheels and seats, they put cute little pony shaped puddle lights on the ground. NOTHING at all like a Traditional Mustang was or should be. But that's what sells.

[xctasy]

Yep, that sedans are dead in the future. The Camry is like the Maxima, a Gene spliced, Drawn, Hanged and Quartered 1990 Corona with G,D, H and Q modifications. The MPV Toyotas down here use the Camry base, and the CUV versions of it was the great white hope that ToyMoter could make a one size fits all platform work economically. It doesn't. Toyota will have a hard landing like Ford did with its sedans.


Ford Australia pulled out of the market, and Toyota has the Camry all to itself. The Camry is Ultimate Appliance. The only reason it survives is because when Toyota messes up its quality programs, it then spends billizions on re gaining favour in customers eyes.

Where is the Celica now?

[ZephyrEFI]

All "three box" box top cars are dead. Keep yours Brad, its just awesome.

Car design is in reversion to monocoque 1936 to 1947 two box designs, with no trunk, taller wheels, higher hip line

Thank you, I intend to.

That's an interesting way to look at it. There are a lot of parallels between today's CUVs and the cars from that period. I personally don't feel that the transition is customer driven though. I feel like the manufacturers are trying to convince their customers this is "what they want". First with the high-profit truck based SUVs, then with today's crossovers. Take a look at it. Ford begrudgingly offers the passenger Transit Connect only to fool the import laws so they can sell the cargo version here. They do NOT market it AT ALL. They'd much rather sell you an Explorer for twice the money for the same passenger capacity and less room! More weight, worse mileage... etc etc. I had a friend ask me about what's out there for 7 passenger vehicles and it's slim pickin's unless you want to spend $50,000 on a mid-size CUV!

This article grabbed my attention because I have a friend at work that recently bought a new Impala. He said he's never seen any advertising for his car. They just don't push them. They can't charge enough for sedans for it to be worthwhile to them. The manufacturers want sedans to go away and buyers to move to crazy-marked up CUVs and trucks. Look at how Ford wants to replace the Fiesta with the Ecosport. For now, the market still demands they play in the sedan fields (whether Chrysler gives a crap about that or not) and it's up to us buyers to convince them they need to offer them.



This looks just like my TC! Did you sneak over and take a picture of it?



You're right though, it does need a V8.

[gr79]

Detroit area car news here can be biased.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...209-story.html

Note the S.H.A.P. line gap and expensive machinery idled.
FCA scraps all of pictured everything, and is retooling anew. 1.49b+ will be part of new product (truck) MSRP.
Machinery, plant electrical, conveyors, storage racks. Roof, walls, docks, stay. Maybe. Paint shop?
Stamping, vendor plant changes to supply parts. Employees may or may not return after 2 year layoff.
Good part is total plant overhauls, like at S.H.A.P., does provide employment for a friend of mine.
Then add tax breaks. Who pays for that eventually? Like the wheel of fortune.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/car...ghts/87545180/

Credit to Ford, keeping a lot of machinery in place at old DAP during its run. Worked with what they had off the shelf.
Made less model year/platform drastic major expense changes as time went on. Especially during the Fox era.
Now very few parts are carried onto new models. Open checkbook? Ours?

[jlehma13]

Detroit area car news here can be biased.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...209-story.html

Note the S.H.A.P. line gap and expensive machinery idled.
FCA scraps all of pictured everything, and is retooling anew. 1.49b+ will be part of new product (truck) MSRP.
Machinery, plant electrical, conveyors, storage racks. Roof, walls, docks, stay. Maybe. Paint shop?
Stamping, vendor plant changes to supply parts. Employees may or may not return after 2 year layoff.
Good part is total plant overhauls, like at S.H.A.P., does provide employment for a friend of mine.
Then add tax breaks. Who pays for that eventually? Like the wheel of fortune.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/car...ghts/87545180/

Credit to Ford, keeping a lot of machinery in place at old DAP during its run. Worked with what they had off the shelf.
Made less model year/platform drastic major expense changes as time went on. Especially during the Fox era.
Now very few parts are carried onto new models. Open checkbook? Ours?

What's the argument? Cars are too expensive or the manufacturers are out to get you? Never has there been more shared platforms and continuity within brands. To remain relevant in this hyper-competitive industry and run a nimble and efficient business, it's necessary. Technology is moving at an ever increasing rate however, and manufacturers must keep up or get their lunch eaten. Of course costs are passed along to the end user. In what business are they not?

People are buying cars-to the tune of over 17million this year. Marketing will always try to tell you what you need, as it has in the past. The fact is, people in general, want suv's. Small suv's are the fastest growing segment. Like small cars, the margins are slim but there is a need for this product. If every manufacturer could sell a loaded up full-sized SUV all day long, they would. Bigger, higher content generally means higher profit.

Businesses are in business to make money. Unless ethics are compromised, I for one, am not going to hate on that. No one is forcing anyone to go and buy a new car.

[TNT]

Something occurred to me that the above posters appear to have missed.

The popularity of Uber and Lyft is running counter to the idea of sedans and wagons going away. More and more consumers are turning to those meaning the companies will need more drivers.

You HAVE to have a sedan or wagon to drive for either of those companies. 2 door coupes and 3 door hatchbacks are NOT allowed. So any company eliminating their four door sedans and wagons is ceding the market to others.


As for the camry that's been mentioned, anyone seen toyoda's latest ads? I'm sorry, but if a camry is your idea of going wild then I feel sorry for you.

[ZephyrEFI]

Yeah, that's a good point. Uber and Lyft are what really have the auto manufacturers running scared. They believe they may be obsolete in a few years because of those companies coupled with the belief that millenials don't want cars. I'll believe that when i see it. Anyway, it's those things that lead to the kind of desperation FCA is showing right now.

TNT, your 4-door argument doesn't really hold water though since 99% of CUV models have 4 doors. THOSE are far more the threat to sedans' survival than coupes. Coupes are a tiny niche market now, apparently.

The US automakers are in a tough spot. Everyone else has a HUGE advantage being able to build cars here, or where-ever they want without having to honor the same UAW commitment. I wonder how that happened. It really sucks. I wish there was a way to level the playing field. Trump should be focusing on THAT more than bringing manufacturing back here as a short term band-aid. I'm not blaming the union so much as pointing a finger at the foreign manufacturers for sidestepping it and totally getting away with it.

[droopie85gt]

What I don't understand is why no one makes a real 4 door SMALL truck. The Canyon and Colorado are the size of 90's Silverados. Not everyone needs to haul 6 people in a crew cab truck. But being able to get a load of mulch with a turbo 4 or 6 and get over 30mph on the highway would tempt me to get one. And when did trucks cost $60-70k??? Good Lord!!

[jlehma13]

Yeah, that's a good point. Uber and Lyft are what really have the auto manufacturers running scared. They believe they may be obsolete in a few years because of those companies coupled with the belief that millenials don't want cars. I'll believe that when i see it. Anyway, it's those things that lead to the kind of desperation FCA is showing right now.

TNT, your 4-door argument doesn't really hold water though since 99% of CUV models have 4 doors. THOSE are far more the threat to sedans' survival than coupes. Coupes are a tiny niche market now, apparently.

The US automakers are in a tough spot. Everyone else has a HUGE advantage being able to build cars here, or where-ever they want without having to honor the same UAW commitment. I wonder how that happened. It really sucks. I wish there was a way to level the playing field. Trump should be focusing on THAT more than bringing manufacturing back here as a short term band-aid. I'm not blaming the union so much as pointing a finger at the foreign manufacturers for sidestepping it and totally getting away with it.

It's not that foreign automakers don't have to honor the UAW, the unions failed to win the vote to unionize.

[TNT]

Yeah, that's a good point. Uber and Lyft are what really have the auto manufacturers running scared. They believe they may be obsolete in a few years because of those companies coupled with the belief that millenials don't want cars. I'll believe that when i see it. Anyway, it's those things that lead to the kind of desperation FCA is showing right now.

TNT, your 4-door argument doesn't really hold water though since 99% of CUV models have 4 doors. THOSE are far more the threat to sedans' survival than coupes. Coupes are a tiny niche market now, apparently.

The US automakers are in a tough spot. Everyone else has a HUGE advantage being able to build cars here, or where-ever they want without having to honor the same UAW commitment. I wonder how that happened. It really sucks. I wish there was a way to level the playing field. Trump should be focusing on THAT more than bringing manufacturing back here as a short term band-aid. I'm not blaming the union so much as pointing a finger at the foreign manufacturers for sidestepping it and totally getting away with it.

You kind of missed my point.

More people riding with Uber means that they have to hire more people to DRIVE for them. Those people are going to need affordable 4 door sedans and wagons.......that or Uber and LYft are both going to have to change their rules.

I'm arguing that the increasing popularity of rideshare means there is an INCREASING demand for affordable sedans. Especially as long as they're cheaper than the CUVs.

I'm saying that the companies are missing the clues by phasing out the cars.

I'm reminded of an argument I got into with a Dodge representative at the LA Auto show 10-15 years ago. They were showing off the Magnum SRT8 they were going to release soon. My first question was, "where's the 6 speed manual?" The rep then got snotty with me and tried to explain that their research showed them that performance car enthusiasts were no longer looking for manual transmissions and that soon ALL cars would be automatics. Years later, that rep and their "research" was proven wrong when they brought back the Challenger name WITH a 6 speed manual!

[BTD]

Sorry if I am a little off topic but I LOVE reading articles about the cars people buy these days. They say wagons don't sell when in REALITY, it is far and away the best selling platform on the planet. It's just that they can't market them as a wagon because that word is not cool so they take the exact same product and call it an "SUV" or "CUV" and as usual, Americans are what we are so we buy that...CUV, that's my favorite...Crossover...yeah, that's it. Sit down; you're driving a station wagon. Not ALL of them but damn near all of them. The like to use the word "SUV" because I guess it makes them feel cool. Guess what, if you have a Dodge Journey...it's a station wagon. All Subarus....station wagons...Ford Edge, yep that's a station wagon. Somehow if they make it taller, the American buyers of today have no problem buying a station wagon. At the end of the day, it's a station wagon. Just a little taller. There is no difference. You're not going into the woods camping sweetheart, you're going for a Spa and you're driving a station wagon there.

I always thought of my Dodge Journey as more of a Mini van, than a station wagon. It's just a less fancy caravan (which of course just means van anyway)

[xctasy]

What I don't understand is why no one makes a real 4 door SMALL truck. The Canyon and Colorado are the size of 90's Silverados. Not everyone needs to haul 6 people in a crew cab truck. But being able to get a load of mulch with a turbo 4 or 6 and get over 30mph on the highway would tempt me to get one. And when did trucks cost $60-70k??? Good Lord!!

There is still a Chicken Tax of 15% on imported trucks. The cost per pound favours big trucks, CUV's and SUV's.

Small trucks like the VW Amoroak and Thailand built "overseas" Ford Ranger and Mazda BT50 don't offer the hip room, economies of scale and cash incentives to the dealer.

Sedans are, and always will be, an appliance. Lyft and Uber will ensure people over 45 will instantly think AMC Appliance and Chrysler K car when a Malibu, Camry or Fusion pulls up. They have the room for golf clubs, a PowerFlite baseball bat and the three maligned Martha Stewart Blancmange the girlfiend just prepared for kicks....ESP in a tall SUV or CUV or truck won't save it on the turnpike....

Historically, import Fords like the 70-78 Mercury Capri (hatch), Merkur XR4Ti (hatch) and Mekur Scorpio (sedan) suffered from not helping dealers make margin, even if they sold in not inconsiderable volume, and had parts back-up. Which they did.

Since 1979, it became clear that if it was a choice between a German made Capri or Euro Granada, (or German Ascona/Monza or Commodore/Senator) people would pay the extra and buy a 100% German BMW or Mercedes Benz rather than a US owned European built Ford or Opel from Germany. Audis and VW's never gained enough snobb/snoot/snood value, so people still hook there nose at them. The 5000's and Jetta's just suffered a bad press scupering like all sedans do.


Bob Lutz (BMW, then Ford, then GM) pushed the overseas merchanising as far as he coulld, but as long as the dealer does dough on imports and then has to suffer the training and customer massaging require to keep Americans in Foreign cars, it'll never change. Press then turned up the hate factor on him. As far as I can tell, he was a superb builder of Fords fortunes, and he was trashed for pushing the right product, the Explorer, when everyone in Ford wanted to make GT90's with quad turbos.

On the other had, late 90's, and Jac Nasser saved Fords investments in Aston Martin with the V12 Duratech, Volvo with the Yamaha 60 degree V8, and Ranger Rover, while the English were still dreaming misty eyed of V8 engined rear drive MG's based on old reheated sedan platforms. All he did was murchanidised engines and gearboxes, and the costs looked after themselves. Sedans were dying even then. 911 put paid to a Lebonese Australian ever progresssing through Ford with such abrasive talk.

Fact is, if Ford wants the Taxi Cab market, it can have it.

The indifference to other, better Ford product is due to the way in which dealerships are set up. Money must flow through the veins of every service.



Down here, like a dead acorn, to really grow one product line, you have to kill another. Ford killed off the Falcon, and the foriegn Thailand made but Australian designed T6 Ranger and BT50 are top selling compact trucks, took Toyota out for the count, blesss em.


There is no way the small SUV's would work in the USA....the 2001-2011 Ranger was 1961-1970-1/2 "Ford Falconed", left to lanquish while the F150 really made some good coin.

[vintageracer]

The only segment of the market keeping the Impala/Caprice alive are police car sales.

The same can be said for the Taurus!