timing cover install

[stangPlus2Birds]

My technique on timing covers is always
clean block surface
wipe RTV on the block surface and then stick the gasket on it.
Let it dry
wipe RTV on the outer gasket surface and let it dry
install timing cover and tighten

Never had a leak in over 150 of them.

I do it the same way.
But, to clarify, you do not want the RTV to fully dry.
You want to RTV to get "tacky" to the touch. That time varies depending on temperature, humidity, sunlight, the position of Jupiter in relationship to Mars , etc.


Fwiw, imho, trying to do the thermostat housing another way than the above, is a great way to learn a lot of new swear words.

[Ourobos]

I'm never patient enough to let it cure..

[Magnetic82]

Alright- here are some photos. I re-disassembled everything today and am ready to clean it up, dry it out, and repair it again. A coworker suggested JB Weld but also- instead of using the new water pump bolt, try a stud to help seal the hole. The timing cover and water pump go back on with a stud sticking out and just torque carefully a nut on the end. In the new bolt kit, there are two studs and the one seems extra- nothing actually attaches to it. Compare the photos as I saved the old bolts. Here goes:

This is the progress thus far. Still seeping some coolant.

The bottom right most hole is the thread repair. Next shot is closer- you can see the insert. Went well and holds well, too.

Again- bottom right hole is the repaired hole. I can get to the 'back' of the hole through the large opening.

This is the old bolt set. Guess which one I broke.

And the new set. Two studs instead of one. May be able to swap one bolt for the stud? I'll check their lengths after dinner.
Ideas? Thanks everyone.
Love Hilo, HI. Have to visit again sometime. Aloha.

[Magnetic82]

Must have been thinking of something else. The second longest stud is the 'extra' one. I might be able to swap one of the second or third from the left with a bolt for the repaired hole. Again, I have to check lengths. The third from the right is the one that came out of the repaired hole. Might be able to swap it with the second from the right- what I'm calling extra. If the lengths are good. Where it goes, according to the diagram, it holds nothing. As far as something connecting to it, like I'm thinking of doing. Thoughts anyone?
Thanks.
Cheers.

[Ourobos]

As those are not blind holes now, you're entire issue could be coolant coming around the threads. I'd put some good thread sealer on the bolt / stud threads.

Once again, my thoughts are, if you have good flat surfaces on the block and the cover, there is no reason it should leak if you torque the bolts down properly - it's the gasket that makes the seal. I'd definitely clean that block up better than it currently is. Use the technique we mentioned above - RTV block, stick gasket, let dry somewhat, then RTV on outter gasket surface, let dry some more, then put timing cover on and torque down - with thread sealer on the 4 bolts that go into the water jackets.

[BMW Rider]

Second to getting that gasket surface a lot cleaner. Can you remove the insert? If you can, clean it really really well in the hole, dry it really really well and set a new insert in with a permanent Loctite or similar product to seal it in place. Now you can reassemble things and use a sealant on the threads as well. Those holes normally penetrate the water jacket and must always be sealed to ensure no leaks. My personal choice for them is Permatex Form-a-gasket. Its a very thick sealant that stays semi pliable and does not seize the bolts in. It also will seal well even if the threads are not exceptionally clean and dry.

[erratic50]

The surfaces need to be spotless! Also it looks to me like the insert is preventing the pump from seating properly.

1 - Go buy a nice new wide wood chisel.
2 - clean the holy hell out of stuff. Spotless.
3 - And make sure with any marks you make that you do not go across the mating surface, only paralkel to the sides of it, or use silicon carbide paper on hard steel or glass to block out on the surface and get it flat
4 - relieve the pump in the area by the insert or get it to go in farther so it allows the pump to seat fully without the gasket. If you can get it back out butter it up with JB then put it back in.
5 - gasket sealer and antiseize are your friend. Use them liberally

block
|
sealer
|
gasket
|
sealer
|
pump
|
sealer
|
bolt

^use a sealing antiseize like the product from Napa designed for head bolts that go into the water jacket, etc here.


I agree on the idea of studding it if you can. I don't know why they weren't done with studs from the factory. Bring on the Grade 8 ready-rod!

As a last resort you might try adding material to the side of the pump sealing flange with JB Weld and hand cutting a gasket that is larger in the area of the thread repair.

There are ways to retain a pump OK without that bolt if the hellicoil won't cooperate. You might consider the buddy bolt and washers system I've suggested before as it works!

[Magnetic82]

Great ideas. I haven't cleaned anything yet so to take better pictures for comment. Success. Cleaning is this weekend. The insert isn't sticking out. It is actually slightly recessed. Still, I may remove it and put a new one in. Might be easier to plug the hole with sealant that way, then install the new insert with plenty of thread sealant. As long as the hole I made is sealed, I feel it should work fine. The gasket didn't leak- the coolant flowed from the insert. It continued to flow pass threads and dripped. Agreed on the cleaning. But I can't depend on just the gasket knowing there is a hole into the water jacket behind it. Must plug hole.
I can't use any of the bolts like I thought. But I did purchase a stainless threaded rod that I'll cut tomorrow.

[Magnetic82]

Great ideas. I haven't cleaned anything yet so to take better pictures for comment. Success. Cleaning is this weekend. The insert isn't sticking out. It is actually slightly recessed. Still, I may remove it and put a new one in. Might be easier to plug the hole with sealant that way, then install the new insert with plenty of thread sealant. As long as the hole I made is sealed, I feel it should work fine. The gasket didn't leak- the coolant flowed from the insert. It continued to flow pass threads and dripped. Agreed on the cleaning. But I can't depend on just the gasket knowing there is a hole into the water jacket behind it. Must plug hole.
I can't use any of the bolts like I thought. But I did purchase a stainless threaded rod that I'll cut tomorrow.

[plumkrazy]

with all the great advice. You Got this!

[Magnetic82]

The threaded rod idea failed completely. So out it went. I removed the insert and tried to pump it full of sealant and have a go at reinstalling the timing cover. For unknown reasons, it would NOT line up. At all. Another gasket ruined. That was attempt three. I have no idea why it won't go back on. Correct gaskets, enough ATV, cork pieces trimmed perfectly. But no go. So off again. Time to clean again and another parts store run.
At this point, any advice is most welcome. Aside from using a shotgun. Which has crossed my mind. Or selling the thing.
It's been apart for a while now and as the temp drops so does my interest. If I wait until next Spring to finish this POS, something will surely explode.
One thing is definite- this weekend, lots of alcohol will flow. But no oil.

[Magnetic82]

The threaded rod idea failed completely. So out it went. I removed the insert and tried to pump the hole full of sealant and have a go at reinstalling the timing cover. New insert, too. For unknown reasons, the cover would NOT line up. At all. Another gasket ruined. That was attempt three. I have no idea why it won't go back on. Correct gaskets, enough ATV, cork pieces trimmed perfectly. But no go. So off again. Time to clean again and another parts store run.
At this point, any advice is most welcome. Aside from using a shotgun. Which has crossed my mind. Or selling the thing.
It's been apart for a while now and as the temp drops so does my interest. If I wait until next Spring to finish this POS, something will surely explode.
One thing is definite- this weekend, lots of alcohol will flow. But no oil.

[cb84capri]

My advice... Take a couple days away from it to cool down and get your head on straight, getting pissed off at it isn't going to make the job any easier. A friend once told me you cut your intelligence in half when you get angry, it's something I tell myself when I start losing my mind over things to get me to calm down. We've all been there. Next time do a dry run without any rtv and just make sure everything is going to go together correctly. Good luck!

Cale

[Walking-Tall]

To turn the created thru-hole back into a blind hole, I would get some brass threaded rod the size that you had to tap in the iron (3/8-16? 1/2-13?... if memory and approximation serves, the timing cover/water pump attaching hardware is 5/16-18...) for that threaded insert you have in there now... cut a length of the brass threaded rod about an inch or so long, centrally drill (1/4") to a depth less than it's full length, and tap ( 5/16 - 18 threads down into the hole you drilled. Use a hack saw to create a slot in the brass threaded rod for a flat screwdriver so you can install it into the block. Remove that threaded insert you have in there now, mix up and coat the block threads and brass threaded rod threads with jb-weld, and install the brass threaded rod insert you have created, winding it in with a flat head screwdriver until it sits flush with the timing cover block surface, and smear some epoxy around the visible perimeter of your fix at timing cover block surface. Let the epoxy cure good. This recreates what was there before the drilling mishap. Use either a stud or bolt of your choice in that location, and with all of the cover/pump hardware threads lightly oiled (because no, those holes do not normally penetrate the water jacket and they do not need to be sealed to ensure no leaks. They are blind holes from the factory.), the torque spec for cover/pump hardware is 15-18ft-lbs, which should not be an issue with the threads in the brass... which I'd tighten to 20 and call 'em done.

[Magnetic82]

Attempt number four was a few days ago. I'm not sure if the threaded insert will seal or not as I don't get that far with this repair. I did seal the threads of the insert where they contact the block. Plus, where I punched through with the drill has JB Weld in it although how much is unknown. I did try to get a good bit back there. Right now, it seems the rubber component of the gasket set that attaches to the bottom, round portion of the timing cover is keeping it from making good enough contact to get the bolts in. None of them will thread in. In the interest of not cross threading, after about ten minutes, I gave up. Once more, another gasket set ruined. Now time to clean. Again. As the temp drops, options evaporate. Any ideas on which gasket set to purchase? I've been using Fel-Pro without the repair sleeve. Not sure of the part number. Readily available but the cover just won't sit correctly. Truly at wit's end.