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  1. #1

    Default Foxbody All Wheel Drive

    I was contemplating what it might take to put together an all wheel drive system in a foxbody. And no I don't mean shove a WRX drivetrain in a fox. I mean an actual 5.0L and T5 with a transfer case attached going to front and rear pumpkins driving solid axle or independent diffs.

  2. #2
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

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    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Look at 1980 Coupe Build http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...74#post1846874


    We had XR4X4 2.8i Sierras down here, essentialy a Scorpio 4X4 under a Merkur XR4Ti.

    That is the IFS to use, the truck stuff is very bulky in a Fox.

    The Ghia Vignale SVO ran a T5 gearbox, and the basic 4X4 European Fergussan Formula Viscous coupling.

    The T9 trans, an ET 78 off shoot from the Pinto 4 and 1974-1978 Mercury Capri II 2.8 was used in 5 speed form, and its light, strong, and has a very strong gear set and alloy case replacment around for it, and it uses a 6.7" Escort rallye axle with reversed crown wheel and pinion. The German and English stuff was raced, and then got replaced by the MTX 75 gearbox. It was a one piece gearbox, but not as good potentially.

    You need FF 4wd, so you can hang it out like a rallye car.

    Moter Trend August 1984 has six pages on it, including the 4WD schematic.

    This schematic is like it, not excatly the same


    A - rear axle

    B - epicycle drive

    C - viscomate

    D - drive chain in the distributive drive

    E - gearbox's band wheel shaft

    F - driving shaft to the front axle's distributive drive

    G - front axle's distributive drive

    H - front axle

    Source: www.fordscorpio.ee

    I don't think the T5 is the gearbox I'd use.

    See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...N-A-4-speed-MT


    The Mustang can accept the Ford Sierra/Scorpio/ Cosworth RS Escort IFS, they get junked all the time, and the parts are a lot better than people realise.

    You don't need even an 8" diff at the front, my Nissan and all Skyline GTR's have 7.625" for a 900 hp potential race car.

    The 6.5 or 6.7" can handle 600 hp at the front with a 50/50 spilt. The torque is split, so the front end doesn't see 400 lb-ft of POTENTIALLY stroked 5.0 V8.

    IRS, well, the Cobra IRS is the ducks guts...the best factory system for the price on any car, anywhere.

    I have had Nissan AWD and other Toyota AWD's and the Ford German stuff was sensational.

    Ford pulled RWD----> AWD Fox Mustang finanaces in favour for the front drive Erika platform, the Escort/ Topaz/Tempo/Tracer 4WD.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...wd-Fox-Mustang

    It had already been done by Ford in the 1984 Ghia Vignale Mustang FF (for Ferguson Formula), seen as an 85 Chicago show car, and, way before that, by Irishman Harry Ferguson at Feruson Research in 1965.

    See http://bangshift.com/blog/Amazing-Fi...t-in-1965.html

    The Ghia version had a Fox platform Mustang with a svelte Ghia body with the basic Merkur SVO/ XR4Ti engine in it, but with a reversed version of the Ford Sierra XR4x4/Scorpio 4X4 drive shaft and gearbox. The six pages of the Motor Trend article makes it clear it is reversed to the normal FF layout, especially in the schematic of the gearbox, transfer case and front diff/axle.

    See http://www.awdwiki.com/en/ford+europe/ for the European FF layout used in the rear drive Sierra/Merkur/Scorpio/Escort RS platform

    The Ghia Vignale Mustang FF version had the T5 gearbox, with an Explorer style drivers side (lhs) drive shaft, but the Sierra/Scorpio/Escort RS Cosworth system was a mirror image of the Fox four wheel drive set up. The Europen version had a reverse helix ZF Atlas diff in the front, and a ZF transfer case with the FF patented coupling.

    Motor Trend ran six pages on the car in August 1984, and its where the Probe body design, the SVO hood scoop, SVO five stud wheels, and the SVO intercooled 2.3 EEC IV engine came from.

    The Fox body cross member and left hand drive shaft T5/FF transfer case and axle never made it to the production line.

    Here are the photos to prove it, and the article is listed on the net under other Mustang magzines, but its not clear enough for me to post.

    http://cgi.ebay.fr/August-1984-Motor...item5adf97e42c



    Ghia Vignale Mustang FF MT August 1984 Number of Pages 6



    1984_Ford_Ghia_Vignale_Mustang_Prototype_Coupe_(Ch icago85)



    1984_Ghia_Ford_Vignale_Mustang_01

    The reason it never hit the big time was the delightfull magazine melee that ensued when the Fox Stang was slated for demise and replacement by the MX6 Mazda based Probe. The GV Mustang was quickly forgotten about, even though it was a 100% Fox concept, the AWD system never got any airplay or further development.

  5. #5

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    What about Ken Block's 65 mustang. Copy that.

  6. #6

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    Yeah, throw the whole car away, run a pro style tube frame then but mustang skin back over it.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  7. #7

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    Obviously this is the answer.

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    Brad

    '79 Mercury Zephyr ES 5.0L GT40 EFI, T-5
    '17 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
    '14 Ford Fusion SE Manual

  8. #8

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    Lol - hilarious

  9. #9
    FEP Power Member Ray Dog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by xctasy
    Ford pulled RWD----> AWD Fox Mustang finanaces in favour for the front drive Erika platform, the Escort/ Topaz/Tempo/Tracer 4WD.
    I had one of those all wheel Tempos. I think I still the vacuum actuator that disconnected the rear end from the transaxle.
    Every thing from that point back was always spinning. After replacing a few rear half shafts, and dealing with the unique gas tank to clear the torque tube,
    I got rid of it.
    It seemed like when any thing in the rear needed fixing , the exhaust and rear drive had to be removed.
    Back to erratic50 quest for all wheel drive, whenever I think the end product should have the stance of an AMC Eagle.
    Ray
    86 Mustang LX 3.8 Convertible (bought new
    84 Capri (needs help)
    05 Volvo XC90 DD( The Swedish Tank)...................Used to own
    08 Magnum (The Roadie Wagon)...........................Too many. the good ones
    95 Saturn SL2 (Kid's Ride).................................65 Chevelle SS, 69 Torino GT
    94 Saturn SL2 (now parts for above) ................39 Willys Overland, 69 Fleetwood, 86 Saab 900
    65 Galaxie 500 XL 390 auto (Waiting for funds)..81 Mustang T-Roof hatch, 88 Lincoln LSC,

  10. #10

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    I've spent a good deal of time thinking about this. Spent some time scouring local junkyards with a measuring tape. My thought was the independent front end from a Ranger and a transfer case from an 5.0 Explorer would be the best junkyard solutions. But, I think that you would need to set the motor back quite a bit in order to keep the weight as low as possible. Motor in the normal place above the axle would place the motor really high. I would have the motor behind the front axle. Having good brakes on the front would be another thing to deal with. Stuff I was looking at had dual piston calipers, so that's a start. It would be a ton of work. If I were to do it I would want something that handle great and was good at the drag strip, not sure if the end result would be worth it.
    So, I bought a WRX. Lol no joke. It's my first import car(after 16 domestics), and I really like it.

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  11. #11

  12. #12

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    Wonder if any of the old ford500 AWD stuff could be adapted to a sideways mounted SBF. My bets are it's too wide.

    i wonder how they got a V8 into some of the Taurus SHOs. Hmmssss..... some Taurus had AWD, sho had a 5 or 6 speed manual if memory serves.

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member bwguardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Wonder if any of the old ford500 AWD stuff could be adapted to a sideways mounted SBF. My bets are it's too wide.

    i wonder how they got a V8 into some of the Taurus SHOs. Hmmssss..... some Taurus had AWD, sho had a 5 or 6 speed manual if memory serves.

    The problem with the Foxbody platform and ^^^...is going to be the K-member. As you know from another post in here, we now have a 08 Taurus and a 07 Edge...both FWD. I have looked at the Taurus when we first got it a couple years ago and thought...hhhmmmm. Basically, the motor is mounted on top of the unibody frame and it sits low, and allows the cv joints to come out of the transmission and connect to the front wheels. From what I understand, the AWD models have an additional PTU that additionally transfers power from the transmission to the rear wheels. The Five Hundred is basically what the newer body style Taurus was based off...purdy much same car. There have been known issues with these which is one reason I stayed away from it...well, that, and the better fuel economy.

    The all aluminum 3.5L V6 power plant in these cars are light, powerful, and strong...it is the basis for the eco boost. You can twist them to 6,700 rpm from the factory and they are smooth given the 60* V design. I think it would be purdy kewl to see a Foxbody with an eco boost in AWD form...
    Last edited by bwguardian; 08-07-2017 at 08:03 AM.
    HAD
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    '08 Edge Limited white sand tri-coat metallic...tan leather...other daughters ride

  14. #14

    Default

    Agreed - ecoboost AWD fox would be worthy of a write up in numerous magazines, etc.

    Could always do like the FWD cars and make the engine/trans part of the frontend structure's support system. Agreed - K member is a limiting factor.

    Really what's needed to make something like this popular is an entirely different setup that bolts to the front subframe. Then those with the wallet to do it could drop the old bullet out in a weekend and set the body down on its new form of go. Hook crap up, align it, and go.

  15. #15
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The K member was and is no limiting factor. How do you think they did it in 1984 Ghia Vignale Mustang FF?

    Page 25-31 described it in detail....a completed work for Ford USA.



    By the time the Ford XR4x4 came out, there had been 17 years of design triming from this inaugrual set up below in the 65 Mustang Hardtop to the last 1970 Convertable

    I think this is the 428 CJ, the white 69 er




    The uprights were all the same, and then got reworked for Ford's Eurpean Sierra. Ford was keen to persue AWD, just didn't like the 30% of vehicle cost price increase. The European Ford Sierras platform was basically Mustang II/ Cortina with a reworked MacPherson strut, so its essentially the Fox frames chassis rails with pressing variations. All that Pinto/MustangII/Cortina/Fox stuff had a lot of common international hard dimensions cominality.

    The K member was a response to the need to isoloate noise, vibration and harshness from the Mustang II era....





    The Fox used the common MKIII/IV/V Cortina/Pinto/Mustang II power steering rack hard points, and just added a cheaper, stronger top strut while keeping the upper and lower arms



    the Fox uses the Mustang II's lower suspension rails and pickup points, with a modified strut very similar to the old Dagenham Prefect/Consul/ Zephyr/Cortina mk 1 & 2/European Capri top strut.


    Henry Ford II eventually settled out of court over the Harry Ferguson patents after the gentlemans handshake in 1938. After Harry died in 1960 to the last of the 320 Jensen FF's made between 66 and 71, Ford had well over 30 65-69/70 Mustang IFS based fourwheel drives with Ford C4 automatics made for it by Fergusan Devlopments Ltd.



    There were at least 3 1965 Mustang FF's made for it, which FF Developments hoped would be the first passenger car based four wheel drive/ABS production car protoype.

    https://www.hemmings.com/blog/index....um-collection/

    Then the sucessfull Mustang undepining design was then transfered to the 22 production United Kingdom Police cars, the IRS 3 Liter V6 1967 Ford Zephyr FF 4WD, all with Fords USA X shell unibody Wishbone coil over A arm IFS and US C4 automatic. 4X4, ABS, four wheel disc brakes, all independent suspension.

    https://www.pressreader.com/uk/class...81492160388044

    There were then two 1969 Ford Mustang FF prototypes and one semi production 428 http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/cha...f-f-4w-d-19746




    and then one 1970 AWD 351 Convertable

    http://www.thedrive.com/news/10017/a...ible-barn-find



    The1984 show cars K member was just reworked, the same way the Nissan Skylines right hand side chassis rail was repositioned.

    Like the Klaus Arning IRS 65 Mustang option, Ford USA had a lot of work meeting the cost and market requirments, and a lot of very promising work was taken off the grocery list before winning Le Mans be came a priority.

    The K member was custom piece, and made for the project. The production line K member would have not required any major changes asside from the common crossmember and transmission tunnel pressing modifications. The Fox Mustang platform had the same basic format as the Mac Pherson strut IFS 1978 FF Opel Senator and Monza West German GM 400 transmission cars. Devised for the Eastern Bloc-West German cold war.

    The AWD 2003-2008 Holden Commodores copied that FF system, with the same rack and pinion steering the Mustang had...definetly an easy swap.

  16. #16

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    Really neat stuff coming in. Maybe eventually we'll solve the drop in AWD scenario through these brainstorming sessions.

  17. #17

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    I think a lot of people have moved on from fox body mustangs. Not likely to be much demand for a AWD bolt in kit especially for the probably really high cost.

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Its really cheap to AWD a Fox body because so many of the hard dimensions match up with the Cologne V6 4X4 Fergusan Formula Sierras, Pinto YBT Cosworth Escorts and 2.8 /2.9 Cosworth Scorpio's/awd 2.9 Scorpio. Those cars were sold in countries heavily salted roads, and the only thing that remained after the Cologne V6 died was the gearbox and cross member.

    The best thing is that Ford customised the transfer gears so it could use four common front crown wheels, the 3.917, 3.615, or ultra heavy duty 4.444, 3.636 or 3.250:1.

    To allow the rear axle to que up with the front, they just used chain transfer gears with 23 different ratios.

    Fellas, thant means biggies and littlelies with AWD!

    26" in the front and 28's in tha back if you want

    1.000/1 (31/31), 1.800/1 (36/20 ), 1.714/1 (36/21 ), 1.619/1 (34/21 ), 1.545/1 (34/22 ), 1.478/1 (34/23 ).
    for MT75: 1.000/1 (31/31), 1.417/1 (34/24 ), 1.231/1 (32/26 ).
    1991+: 1.833/1 (33/18 ), 1.800/1 (27/15), 1.737/1 (33/19 ), 1.667/1 (25/15), 1.600/1 (32/20), 1.550/1 (31/20), 1.476/1 (31/21), 1.688/1 (27/16 ), 1.625/1 (26/16 ), 1.471/1 (25/17 ), 1.429/1 (30/21 ), 1.391/1 (32/23 ), 1.333/1 (32/24 ), 1.333/1 (24/18 ), 1.318/1 (29/22 )
    1991+ (for MS90/2): 1.529/1 (26/17)

    The IRS ran either Ford mini Cologne ZF Gear "Atlas" 7.5" or the Ford SVO Motorsport US 9" gears.
    Rear: 7" or 7.5";
    5.111, 4.889, 4.667, 4.571, 4.444, 4.429, 4.273, 4.125, 4.091, 3.857, 3.818, 3.636, 3.625, 3.375, 3.143

    9"; 3.417, 3.250, 3.083

    The front uprights were used from 1986 to 1996 in Sierra's, Cosowrth Escorts, Scorpios



    You can even make your own for an IFS wishbone system, or if you want something that melds into the existing Fox frame better.

    http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/blog...gallery/page/2

    File is http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/wp-c...ns-692x261.jpg

    Development chain ( http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/ford-sierra-xr4i )
    1984: Ford Sierra XR4i (Merkur XR4Ti)
    1986: Ford Sierra XR4x4
    1987: Ford Sierra RS Cosworth
    1990: Ford Sierra Sapphire RS Cosworth 4x4 (MT75 5 speed, or MS90 7 speed gearbox)
    ( http://tech-racingcars.wikidot.com/f...-v-rs-cosworth )
    1993: Ford Escort Mk V RS Cosworth (Ford MT75 5 speed or Ford MS92/1 7 speed manual gearbox or 1995+: X-trac 6 speed sequential gearbox)




    These cars are raced and junked, and McPherson strut the cross member with its LHD Mustang steering rack and 57.2" track on 4 on 4-1/4 hubs with a bullet proof T9 gearbox make it all so easy.

    The T9 bolts to a Top Loader or SROD 5.0 bellhousing with one bolt to redrill, and the right clutch. It has a really awesme upgrade kit that costs a lot but it can handle 260 lb-ft stock, and 350 lb-ft rebuilt. Dog geared, there is a 6 or 7 speed WRC Escort Cosworth gearbox that can take 600 hp and 450 lb-ft.

    The later MTX75 takes either an Explorer 4.0/ 138 bellhousing, which can be mated to a 5.0 via an easily made adaptor, the Escort Cosworth the early 2.0 Pinto /135 teeth bellhousing pattern, so it allows you to use the Canfield 2.3 to SBF 5.0 adaptor the opposite way it was intended.

    The FF drive train takes the torque off the small (reversed and upgraded) 1600 Pinto front crown wheel, and it was designed as a LHD instillation, so the clearance for the transfer case is just some hammer work and it won't eat up your leg space. My Nissan Stagea has reall problems with space on its Sierra like AWD system, as its RHD, and I have no room when cruising to move my left foot back.

    The capabiliies of the system are pretty good if you stay 5.0 in the streetable 400 hp and 430 lb-ft maximum bracket, with the low end torque rating the issue. A nice big duration cam with a little more loss in low end torque would be fun and durable.

    The 6.7 " cwp is 100% Ford Pinto 1600, but reversed and upgraded, in ratios 3.133, 3.615, 3.92, 4.385, 4.429.

    The fornt to rear axle ratio is different due to the chain driven reducer. Rear ratios are the common Mekur ZF gears Atlas Koln 7 and 7.5" ratios from 3.09 on down to 5.14. can be



    Gearboxes are the lowly but very tough T9 Ford gearbox, the ET78 with a 5 th gear. There is an alloy case conversion, and a close ratio gear set, and dog gear and even a sequential option.




















  19. #19

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    Are you suggesting this is a near boltin operation?

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Are you suggesting this is a near boltin operation?

    My pick of engine is the Cologne 4.0 SOHC, or the 5.0 Explorer engine but with a racier than HO spec roller cam.

    Either are junk yard items in SUV's.

    The work the South Americans did on Ranger transmission to Ford 302 V8 transplants in Fiats and Alfa Romeos allows the V6 trans to fit the SBF engine easily.








    The ET78 gearbox and T9 are 85% related, so the only issue is the input shaft spline count and the 9.5" clutch you use has to fit the spline count.



    Cradle potentially eliminates the K member, and your options to secure it are to use the Maximum Motors upper support for rising rate upper coil strut front ends.

    The pickup points are clipped through the front frame rails by three bolts each side, a little different to the Fox, but the cradle is very strong and simple.






    The steering is similar, but not the same between Merkurs and AWD Sierras, Cosworth Escorts and Granada Scorpios.

    See https://www.driftworks.com/forum/thr...re-lock.42292/ for hard dimensions in cm, divide by 2.54 to get inches.

  21. #21
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Any old big 4 liter Cologne V6 from 2WDor 4WD Rangers, or Explorers of most years, it will fit to the 4X4 Sump system without any issues. There is no difference between the base of the 2.8/2.9 engines and the 4.0, except for the balance shafts and the sump pick-up.

    Engine mounts basically bolt up too, although some bolts aren't drilled.

    With 165 to 207 hp and in every junk year(almost), they aren't exactly latent engines.


    The Fox steering rack is in the same postion, its essentially the same rack.

    The "Project Toni" IFS is standard un modified strut IFS as per the US Erika (Front Drive 82-88 Escort/EXP/LN7, 84-95 Tempo/Tracer), designed by Ford of Europe.

    Since Maximum Motor Sport understand the upper strut mount isn't up to the task without reinforcement,

    then the tasks are just a case of


    1. mating the lower sump,









    2. IFS X member

    3. and transfer case and T9, MX75 or whatever the heck donar trans you decide to the Mustang/Capri or other Fox superstructure. Anyone wanted to reduce the scope of the project would use the stock European 4X4 kit, since is cheap, and useless unless its attached to a running unruseted Toni Ford. And they aren't, the cars a rusting away and gone burger. In a similar way, the UK institutions universally love the T9 transmission, and its book cost for performance upgrades certainly isn't 2000 pounds Sterling. The cost of doing a transmission up is a one time prospect, and that's it.

    The MX75 and its X Trac 6 and 7 speed versions are expensive, and the MX75 isn't a torque monster, but it'll live behind a 5 liter V8, especially if its a cammed up, loose low end torque 5 liter HO spec engine. What saves the whole 4X4 package is its Jeep CJ3 style light weight. Every upgrade to the Explorer and F250 4X4 system adds massive loads to the whole shebang.

    Notes on the basic donar chasiss

    The Stock Ford Sierra superstucture dates back from the late 70's early 80's Prjoect Toni designed by Ford of Europe king pins Uwe Bahnsen, Robert Lutz and Patrick le Quément.

    The "Project Toni" base remained the same from 1982 to its last days in 1996, but it used the Six Cylinder Aussie Cortina trans tunnel dimensions so it could fit in an Xtrac AWD system, although it wasn't designed for AWD from day one.

    The hard points of the Toni plat form IFS sturt towers can be welded into a Fiesta, an Escort, a Tempo, a Fox....




    But the AWD conversion doesn't require a frame clip because the upper supports and upgrades exist for Foxes since the Saleen and SVO/ZakSpeed Group A Mustang era.

    The hard dimension differences of the Toni chassis verses the Fox chassis are below in detail.







    The Sierra/Merkur floor plan is very narrow in the foot wells due to the provisions for four wheel drive.












    The 1978 - 2004 Fox/Fox 4 and all 79-93 Mustang variations used a straight through chassis with reinforced K member, but like all Ford unibodies, they have total options on repitching things at the factory.

    For instance,

    1. The distance between the front of the strut tower to the corner of the radiator support is the same between the mustang and Fairmont.

    2. The difference is that the Fairmont radiator support doesn't curve back as much as the mustang one. This brings the radiator closer to the motor. 1"-1.5" is not enough to really notice a difference, especially when it's a rubber radiator hose or pushing the fan deeper into the fan shroud. On Turbo-Box's setup
    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ment-on-zephyr
    this difference brought his intercooler back closer to the engine.

    3. The Fairmont engine compartment also doesn't angle down as much from the cowl to the radiator support because the Fairmont has a flatter hood-line.


    4. The cowl is also 1" lower on the Fairmont. The faster slopping 79-93 Mustang and 79-86 Capri hood was the result

    5. There really are differences in the frame kicks past the K member mounts in many years of the 1979 to 2004 Fox derivatives. As major as K member pistioning, as minor as frame rails and trans mounts. Scott Rod Fab sell inner fender skirts specifically for a Fairmont, and another for Mustangs.








    Lastly, the Fox has all the right curves in all the right places to fit a 4X4 Toni gearbox and transfer case without modification.


  22. #22

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    Interesting bits there, but I doubt that they would hold up long to a healthy V8. And if you couldn't have your AWD fox mustang with a health V8, why even do the AWD work?

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  23. #23
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang-junky View Post
    Interesting bits there, but I doubt that they would hold up long to a healthy V8. And if you couldn't have your AWD fox mustang with a health V8, why even do the AWD work?

    Jess

    Fair point, but you or I can't drive any Mustang in mud, snow, or safely in glare ice or hail, and ensure hookup on not getting stuck.


    Where AMC went in 1982 was the right position, but it was mixed in with high ride height and semi off road looks.


    Gennerally, a system like this is a 155 pound mass increase, and its 36/64 split, so the transfer case and front axle don't need to be Explorer or Ranger/Sportstrac FX4 strength. For that increase, you get unassiable security on 5 surfacing coverings (M+S, Ice, Hail and what are termed by scientists as "low polished stone value PSV surfacings", a common phenolic basalt and argilite found down here, which makes the first 4 coverings very dangerous)

    The four link rear drive Fords I have lots of experience with in M+S, Ice and Hail. My 81 was one of the best RWD's I've every had in those four conditions, but progress was still a lotery most drivers of SUV's and X Overs no longer have to worry about. I refuse to hav ea car as just a nice day car. A car should be a consumer durable....

    The Cologne V6 is an engine I like and have a lot of experience with in my Cortinas and Explorers, but in serious appraisal, its bit of a pudding...very heavy, not very compact, and missing mid range grunt of any good pushrod small block Ford.

    The 5 liter V8 is a much better engine, and the Toni AWD will cope with a mild 302. The key is that the components of an AWD car require a lot more matching than a rear drive 8.8" Fox.

    Which is why Ford of Europe used those 23 front to rear axle primary drive gears in the FF system.

    To clarify, "Mild" is 400 hp and 430 lb-ft, a lot more wild than 90% of most peoples Foxes on this forum. And about where the Mark VI Escort Cosworth stopped. So the basic transfer case is Really Tough. The best gearbox for it is actally the A4LD


    WC34 Nissan Stagea RS four 4wd in snow
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqaRPEMXRfk




    I have a gutlless RB25DE non-turbo twin-cam 188 bhp net @ 6000 rpm, 188 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm in a 3571 pound car.

    But it is 100% safe on mud, glare ice, hail and snow compared to any other car I've driven.

    Once is got a proportional coupling, you don't need the extra HP and torque, although 16.4 second quarter miles at 81 mph are S-L-O-W compared to any other new car on the road today. Its

    A specfically coastal, island nation problem for Road Maintenance, Emergency Services and Rest home worker attendees in the Roaring Forties in the south down here and in the British Isles is

    1. mud
    2. glare ice at various times, and
    3. Hail
    4. (down here anyway) snow falls of frozen antarctic ice. Rock Salt or Calcium Magnesium Acetate doesn't get applied everywhere on the Highway, and the local B grade roads are treacherus.

    A 5th is low polished stone valve tar macadam, something you don't get in the Americas, but its basically quarry rock in bitumen bound basecourse, and its impossible to get most largeToyota Camry and Chev Celibrity size front drive cars to hook up. Its the reason why Australian and New Zealand Skid Pan g force readings are so much lower than in the US magazines...you guys have clinker based cacined bauxite tar macadam and Hot Mix Asphalt. We don't unless we get a supply from a foundary that makes it.

    At 6 am in the morning, my wife goes to the Rest home in the Nissan. We've had a few near miss, near death experiences, even in the Toyota Rav4, a FWD car with a permanenat AWD linkage. I got the ATTESSA equiped Nissan after my Mustang bit the dust when the lights turned off in an accident.

    A viscous couppling AWD car can be "hanged out" like Hannu Mikkola in Escort RS1600 or 1800 or Walter Röhrl in a Fiat 131 Abarth or ASCONA 400, but they still have front wheel steering in any conditions.

    I grew up driving RWD cars in 1 °Fahrenheit temperatures...front drive cars pushed, but you could get most places only if they were small and light, rear drive cars were snow bound, no chance in ice and little chance in the snow.

    This is the problem I had in my V6 Cortina, my Mustang.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt514ASc5k4

    Even awd's can't cope with glare ice, but biased FF or other Viscous coupling AWD that was orgianlly RWD is so much more secure than anything I've ever driven, and I've driven all the off road 4WD's when at the snow covered mines New Zealand.

    The only safe option is to have a rear drive car with electronic or Fergusan Formula sensitive to road surface AWD, or the car will spin.

    This is pretty much the situation the 27 1967 Ford Zephyr squad cars and the "Cold War" Special Services Opel Senator and Monza anf then the Eagel SX/4 were designed for.





    The Explorer (up till 2001 anyway) and Range Rover/Land Rover Discovery AWD system is great but they have much, much heavier front differentials and huge weight gains to operate the IFS or beam front axle, but also have very bad geometery and recovery boefore ESP got fitted.

    The final rub is that the value proposition only works out for owners with used vehicles with the removed"sticker shock".

    Opel with Tony Falls 400 hp, 1 ton Manta 400, would have killed Audi with this set up,



    using the Zakspeed Mustangs Getrag 262 series gearbox with an FF transfer case....thats tough!

    Result....Opel and GM sent Tony Fall packing.

    The Twin Turbo Australian Induction Technology Twin Turbo Farmont Ghia,


    350 hp and 400 lb-ft from a 4.1 liter twin turbo Falcon six






    Ford F150 ZF 5 speed and FF transfer case, mega tough.

    Result...Ford Australia pulled out during the 1987 Australina and New Zealand Share market crash and mini- recession



    Same with the Pontiac GTO based AWD HSV Monaro.



    GM's worsening financial melt down killed this project after many AWD cars were made.

    Another 500 hp capable drive train.



    Only Bahnsen and Lutz in Ford understood the proper arrangment of a AWD front engine rear drive car is to have the front drive shaft and transer case on the passenger side. RHD cars are a tiny market, and don't rate in the grand scheme of things.

    All the dingbats put the transfer case on the wrong side.

  24. #24

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    I wouldn't drive any mustang(or project vehicle, or new vehicle) in the winter around here. With the amount of salt they use here any car driven in the winter is disposable. Drive it till it gets too rusty and get another.

    Jess
    Previously owned;
    1979 Mustang, v6 swapped to EFI 393, custom installed m122 blower, 4r70w trans, Megasquirt II, T-top swaped in.
    1990 Mustang, 545 BBF, C-4 with brake, ladder bars.
    1983 Mustang, 1984 SVO Mustang
    1984 Mustang convertible, v6 swapped to 351
    1986 Mustang GT, 1989 Mustang GT convertible
    1992 Mustang coupe, 4 swapped to 302

  25. #25
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang-junky View Post
    I wouldn't drive any mustang(or project vehicle, or new vehicle) in the winter around here. With the amount of salt they use here any car driven in the winter is disposable. Drive it till it gets too rusty and get another.

    Jess
    I sat around considering this point, MJ.

    Since I don't have to cope with as much salt as you guys do, and since I realise just how much stress a unibody Fox is under without 4X4 and 400 hp plus, I kinda went away and stewed over this.

    Down here, a car is a lifetime prospect for some, ie more than first car to retirement age, potentially a 49 year item, a 16 to 65 purchase. In the salted areas, if I was stupid enough to risk it as a 100% driver in a US Rust Belt Winter, that'd deep six it in 10 years without repair intervention.

    Your situation, verses mine....your testimony is right on


    For others like me, our common, garden variety 1985-1987 V6 XR4x4 Sierra or an 89-2008 AWD I6 Nissan GTR or 1996-2008 AWD Stagea, they aren't half the fun of an Eight Cylinder Fox...not even close.

    The extra roadablity of AWD is needed in snow, ice, farm access tracks, construction sites and our common bleeding road Tar Macadam which in the 30 minutes after or durring a summer squarm, is a lethal road suface in any 400 hp, 3200 pound car.


    And for that, I present.....



    Group 1 FIA (Group A FISA) Zakspeed Mustang equipment
    Ferrari 13 and 11.45" brakes with stock Four stud Mustang bolt hub spacings,
    Knock ons,
    16X10's,
    275/45 x 16 Hoosiers,
    Getrag 265 gearbox,




    and......

    BMW 325iX E30 front uprights, transfer case, and front and center differentials.




    Getrag 262/265 mates to SROD or T5 SBF bellhousing



    Like this




    Then Battle Box chassis upgrade so your 400 plus Horsepower doesn't end up like

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    LMR, you guys rock

    So does this article

    http://themustangsource.com/fast-fox...1-killer-8960/

    By Mark Kovalsky - June 17, 2014

    One of the last things I worked on before leaving Roush was a 5.8L Twin-Turbo 1988 Mustang. Ford’s then SVO (Special Vehicle Operations) group commissioned the car. They had learned about Chevrolet’s plans to introduce the Corvette ZR-1. Rumors put the price of the new Corvette variant at about $60,000. It was rumored to be one of the fastest production cars of its time. SVO wanted to sell this Mustang for $30,000, and have it fast enough to outrun the ‘Vette. This ZR-1 killer was also going to be the 25th Anniversary Special.
    The teardown revealed six teeth missing from second gear. I had someone in the car with me who verified I didn’t miss the gear. The T-5 just couldn’t handle the torque.

    We built the car in a very short period. To save time, the engine wasn’t dynoed, but 375 hp/390 lb-ft is a conservative rating. All that grunt was shoved into the car with a T-5 transmission. The production plan was to use a T-56, but there wasn’t one available for another year or so.

    The T-5 wasn’t up to the task. One time I did a WOT from a standing start. At 5,000 rpm I sidestepped the clutch, scurried up first, grabbed second, dumped the clutch, and started to floor it again.

    I made it about halfway down when there was a loud BANG and I had no power going to the wheels. I coasted about a half-mile right back into the shop. The trans locked up as I was coasting through the doorway. The teardown revealed six teeth missing from second gear. I had someone in the car with me who verified I didn’t miss the gear. The T-5 just couldn’t handle the torque.

    If this was the car that was going to mark the Mustang’s silver anniversary, it was going to do it in a blur. It ran a low 12-second quarter-mile, and it couldn’t hook up until just before the 2-3 shift. I put the first 2,000 miles on the car developing the tune. By the time I was done, the doors didn’t fit right. The chassis had twisted. The Fox body, even with all of SVO’s chassis stiffeners, wasn’t up to handling that much power. I believe that’s why this car never made it to production.

    During the development process Jack Roush asked to drive the car. After his drive, he came to my desk and asked me if I was crazy enough to ride with him in the pouring rain. I asked if I really had a choice. He said “no”.

    Because 25 years have passed, I believe the statute of limitations has expired, so I can tell you the next part: We were driving the 25th Anniversary Special in a rain that was so hard I often couldn’t see the end of the hood. Jack took me for a ride on an expressway demonstrating an engine miss at 100 mph. I told him if he got me back alive I knew how to fix that. He did, and I fixed it.

    This car still exists. It is in the Roush Museum. I visited the museum several years ago. The boosted Mustang was in a line with other cars. It had a small plaque showing that it was a 5.8L Twin-Turbo. I filled in all of my own memories.

    Front to rear torque split is 37/63, so the front ZF axle and center diff will cope with 430 lb-ft or more.

    The IFS up rights are almost a straight swap over prospect, and BMW copied the fOX rack and pinion steering position and the full, non modified MacPherson struts take the halfshafts clear to the uprights.

    It's just what I want to do.....

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