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  1. #26
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Great to know 7000 is doable with EFI. I may try it after things are installed if it seems healthy and still pulling at 6750.

  2. #27
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Yea - we are all a bunch of gear heads. We talk about a mild upgrade on a stock setup and the next thing you know we've identified every single part needed to make it scream-- again. Just can't leave well enough alone.

    talk is cheap thankfully! I have a huge stash of parts I've yet to put on my 86, and honestly it's because that is a lot of work and takes time I don't have. Plus it's just so damn good compared to other 80's marvels in stock form in the first place. You mess with them then the next thing you know you lose the entire personality that makes them so much fun to drive.

    Thsts not to say mods are a miss. I do not regret for a second doing any of the things I've done so far to mine. I wish I would have had them at 100K rather than over 450K! I think of all of the miles I drove mine in 99% stock form but turned up. But would I have made it this far if I modded it back when I was 10 feet tall and billet proof in my mind - I doubt it.

    My son's 86 is for all practical purposes exactly what mine was when I ran up all the miles. And the beauty of that is I know odds are his will also get him from point A to point B at a time in his life where so much is determined simply by showing up.
    There is 450k miles on your engine!! Damn that's crazy. My blue car was just past 250k when I pulled it apart. High miles makes for looser engines .

    As for this initial posting topic, pretty sure I will just slap it back together with a mild cam and leave everything else as is. That was my original idea. I still have a lot to finish with this car, I did not want to be dealing with engine performance at this time. Just need a running power train to get the chassis shook down.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  3. #28
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Great to know 7000 is doable with EFI. I may try it after things are installed if it seems healthy and still pulling at 6750.
    Do take it the wrong way, makes me cringe a little every time it gets that high. Not a comfortable feeling.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  4. #29
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Oh yea. It will be quite a project when I tear that ol bullet down. It's had metal in the oil being trapped by magnets for 17 years and 250K miles... and it gets abused with full powershifts at 6000 pretty regularly.

    It's not much - just an old 86 with E6 heads, a SD friendly mid 80's cam grind, and open induction and exhaust I've put on a part at a time in the last 5 years. 70MM MAF, 65MM TB, Typhoon EFI, A9L, BBK headers, 2.5" high flow X pipe and flowmasters. Fuel pressure is added to address a lean condition up top at 5000-6250. I know it's from the cobra spec MAF with a GT spec tune...

    It smokes pretty hard, because of valve guides but it is a lot of fun to drive.

    This old motor has trashed mire T5's than I care to talk about. I wonder if it will beat my T5Z - time will tell.

    Suspension and brakes and big tires have all came late in life too. It corners really well now with the drop in height and all the additional parts.
    Last edited by erratic50; 08-19-2017 at 04:51 PM.

  5. #30
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    Oh yea. It will be quite a project when I tear that ol bullet down. It's had metal in the oil being trapped by magnets for 17 years and 250K miles... and it gets abused with full powershifts at 6000 pretty regularly.

    It's not much - just an old 86 with E6 heads, a SD friendly mid 80's cam grind, and open induction and exhaust I've put on a part at a time in the last 5 years. 70MM MAF, 65MM TB, Typhoon EFI, A9L, BBK headers, 2.5" high flow X pipe and flowmasters. Fuel pressure is added to address a lean condition up top at 5000-6250. I know it's from the cobra spec MAF with a GT spec tune...

    It smokes pretty hard, because of valve guides but it is a lot of fun to drive.

    This old motor has trashed mire T5's than I care to talk about. I wonder if it will beat my T5Z - time will tell.
    Cool for sure

    Hard to say on the T5Z... Power shifting is not generally a friend of the T5. I still run one in my Blue car, all Astro internals (Z spec essentially) but I don't power shift it. It has held up good so far.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  6. #31

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    Id really like to know what the stock processors capeable of, rpm wise. I almost got a quarter horse setup, ended up spending the money on a car instead. Looks like it would be a ton of fun to mess with that sorta stuff.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  7. #32
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    6250 for certain on an A9L. Had it there last week. Adjust the limiter and I'm pretty sure the ECU would let it go past 7000. I'm not revving this old smallblock any more than 6250.... a fresh bullet maybe.

  8. #33
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haystack View Post
    Id really like to know what the stock processors capeable of, rpm wise. I almost got a quarter horse setup, ended up spending the money on a car instead. Looks like it would be a ton of fun to mess with that sorta stuff.
    Even with the EDIS systems, like the MN12 3.8 SC V6 EEC-IV modules which used an EDIS module, similar to the TFI module, they can't pull spark. The torque reduction is part of the program on later engines, but it can't manage spark, only fuel. EECIV rpm cut outs are fuel based hard or soft limits.




    Its periferals can hack 12000 rpm if required to do so. The Grevious Bodility Armus GBA Cosworth 120 degree V6 fired 12 injectors at 12000 rpm, so 8 at 12000 is certainly possible if you have the 10500 to 12000 rpm capable of a good 283 cubic inch pushrod engine. The MB5001 Indy Car engine of 1994 made 10300 rpm with just 209 cubic inches, but drag race 287 to 500 class engines often record 11200 rpm in over rev conditions.

    EECIV and some EECV's cant pull spark. It wasn't until the EEC-V modules that Ford started building the EDIS circuitry into the EEC. The actual execution code in the EEC processor is directly responsible for the spark, but its the TFI or EDIS that does the work.

    The rev limiter as set in the stock ECU for A9L is 6504 RPM. This is set by the MNPIP8 setting. The EECIV never cuts spark, only fuel. Pulse width saturation is injector size and pressure hold point limited. Spark saturation at the TFI or EDIS governs the maximum rpm if the PWM at the injector is able to reach the 8000 rpm internal limits before recoding the A9L box code EECIV.

    All Ford EEC's , like many purpose-built computers, isn’t exactly impressive from its specifications. However, it only needs enough memory and power to execute its code properly. It was its Analgue Digital conveter which absolutley made the "EEK Four" such a force. The maximum rev limit is based on the spark saturation, which governs the maximum rpm. It can cope with 9000 rpm if required.


    The rip off Motorola/ Intel 8096 chip is the 15 and 18 MHz Motorola 8061

    http://atomictoasters.com/2011/02/co...eec/#more-3431

    Even before EEC-III was released into the wild, Ford was already developing EEC-IV to meet the new Onboard Diagnostic (OBD) rules coming down the road.

    EEC-IV is the most prolific of Ford’s engine computers. In one variety or another, it was found on every Ford vehicle starting in 1984. It would not be phased out of Ford’s inventory until the late 1990s. Using an Intel 8061 processor with a memory chip that could store 1 kb of ROM and 128 kb of RAM (late 2 8 kb ROM and 128 kb RAM chips were used), the EEC-IV could control nearly every aspect of the engine. In 1986, Ford introduced sequential fuel injection which would allow precise metering of fuel to each cylinder. The EEC-IV could do that. OBD-I was required, and the EEC-IV could do that. Also, thanks to a long run and some computer savvy gearheads, the EEC-IV was cracked and many homebrew systems designed to allow people to upload their own calibration to the EEC-IV. The EEC-IV was even used on Formula 1 cars, one of the earliest digital control systems for F1.

    http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-6-Engine.aspx
    by Mike Kojima

    The EECIV coped with the 12,000 RPM GBA 1.5 liter Cosworth engine from 1985, 1986 and 1987. Fords best USA engineers got the Speed Density EECIV to sit up and beg. Increased boost levels from 1984 thru to 1987 and the advent of engines designed around the Rocket Fueled "Gelled Paint Thiner" oxygenated gasoline ment both the Hart Alloy Cosworth BDA based four and then the 120 degree V6 weretotal durability failures compared to the ancient Iron Block BMW 1500 slant four, and then the Honda F1 V6 redesign. The iron and alloy block technology required to hold 250 to 375 hp per cylinder at qualifying time lagged behind but the EECIV never did.

    Kind of funny to realize is that the EEC-IV based ECU was one of the most advanced ECUs on the grid at the time.

  9. #34
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Even with the EDIS systems, like the MN12 3.8 SC V6 EEC-IV modules which used an EDIS module, similar to the TFI module, they can't pull spark. The torque reduction is part of the program on later engines, but it can't manage spark, only fuel. EECIV rpm cut outs are fuel based hard or soft limits.




    Its periferals can hack 12000 rpm if required to do so. The Grevious Bodility Armus GBA Cosworth 120 degree V6 fired 12 injectors at 12000 rpm, so 8 at 12000 is certainly possible if you have the 10500 to 12000 rpm capable of a good 283 cubic inch pushrod engine. The MB5001 Indy Car engine of 1994 made 10300 rpm with just 209 cubic inches, but drag race 287 to 500 class engines often record 11200 rpm in over rev conditions.

    EECIV and some EECV's cant pull spark. It wasn't until the EEC-V modules that Ford started building the EDIS circuitry into the EEC. The actual execution code in the EEC processor is directly responsible for the spark, but its the TFI or EDIS that does the work.

    The rev limiter as set in the stock ECU for A9L is 6504 RPM. This is set by the MNPIP8 setting. The EECIV never cuts spark, only fuel. Pulse width saturation is injector size and pressure hold point limited. Spark saturation at the TFI or EDIS governs the maximum rpm if the PWM at the injector is able to reach the 8000 rpm internal limits before recoding the A9L box code EECIV.

    All Ford EEC's , like many purpose-built computers, isn’t exactly impressive from its specifications. However, it only needs enough memory and power to execute its code properly. It was its Analgue Digital conveter which absolutley made the "EEK Four" such a force. The maximum rev limit is based on the spark saturation, which governs the maximum rpm. It can cope with 9000 rpm if required.


    The rip off Motorola/ Intel 8096 chip is the 15 and 18 MHz Motorola 8061

    http://atomictoasters.com/2011/02/co...eec/#more-3431




    http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-6-Engine.aspx
    by Mike Kojima

    The EECIV coped with the 12,000 RPM GBA 1.5 liter Cosworth engine from 1985, 1986 and 1987. Fords best USA engineers got the Speed Density EECIV to sit up and beg. Increased boost levels from 1984 thru to 1987 and the advent of engines designed around the Rocket Fueled "Gelled Paint Thiner" oxygenated gasoline ment both the Hart Alloy Cosworth BDA based four and then the 120 degree V6 weretotal durability failures compared to the ancient Iron Block BMW 1500 slant four, and then the Honda F1 V6 redesign. The iron and alloy block technology required to hold 250 to 375 hp per cylinder at qualifying time lagged behind but the EECIV never did.
    Cool set up on that thing.

    What's odd about the MNPIP8 setting is that it interferes with the dist pip signal. I orig raised the regular limiter and the engine stopped at 6500 as said. Not a bad pip sensor. Raising MNPIP8 allows this signal to stay clean. I have many scope captures of this. Odd too me that you cannot raise MNPIP8 to 7000 and engine will rev that high, signal then cut around 6600 rpm... Set it to 25000, essentially off and you can now rev the engine higher, as long as the engine can. My msd limiter is set to 7000 and I have hit that limiter... Don't hold it there though
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  10. #35
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    It becomes an out of range mantisa, like the 7700 rpm Rev splitter in the Honda Vtech CPU.

    Give it some out of range data, like turning the 7700 rpm signal into a sub 3850 rpm sqaure wave, and it will operate fine without interupting the rev limiter.

    Since the EECIV is a half breed of EECIII code from the pre digital era, it uses an identity to trigger a response. An out of range value stops the line of code operating. Its typical rocket science. There is a lot of short hand tests, and you'd be supprised how much junk DNA there is in the EECIV....even an economy mode to work above the 14.7 :1 stoich ratio to improve fuel economy. Offcourse that had to be cut off, no one wanted the EPA to know that an EECIV would work better at 16.1 than 14.7.

    MSII is very freindly, but a little quirky, a typical chain development. DIYTune has allowed the system to work in a funny, comical way.

    EEC in all forms is very strict, but has some totally wacky Analogue-Digital stuff which saves critical code space and reduces re-time errors. The Speed Density system is very trim. I was lucky, my earliest influnce was Tristram from NZ, a PLC system operator from, would you believe, milk treatment stations.

    He really schooled me up on just one phone call. EECIV is not a nice system to grab, and reuse unless you go through all the wiring. If your happy with the sensors, EECIV is fine. The Aussie 5.0 non OBD II EECV is great, but its not SD.

    Like me, he asks really seamingly bumb a$$ questions, and a lot of them show the total lack of depth in understanding...no one responds. We've both got our 9 to 4-1/2 year unswered posts....

    http://www.fordmods.com/post1426868.html#p1426868
    EL2 XR8 6DHE ECU EGR Question Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:34 pm
    Quote Originally Posted by xafalcon
    Does anybody have an EL2 XR8 (auto) with the 6DHE computer installed from the factory? I'm trying to get to the bottom of the EGR wiring and since the EL2 was a transition model as far as EEC was concerned I don't know exactly what a "factory setup" really was. Here is the background

    I bought an engine and loom setup and noticed that the EGR Valve Position Sensor plug on the injector harness is blanked off and the EGR valve mounting location on the EGR spacer is also blocked off (ie there is no EGR solenoid or associated position sensor at all). The EVPS plug blank-off is a factory Ford type plug cover rather than a home-made jobbie. The EGR valve blank-off could be either factory or a very tidy home-made one. The car was a 1998 so the very last of the EL2's and came with the Explorer intake (but with the functional EGR passages and IAT sensor boss in the #5 runner).

    What I want to know is whether EGR is the same as AU1 (ie there is no EGR) or the same as earlier E-series V8's (and someone has done a very tidy job in deleting it) for the 6DHE ecu.

    Hopefully this makes sense to someone who has an XR8 with this exact same ecu, and they can just take a quick look and a photo under the engine cover.
    Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:04 am
    Quote Originally Posted by xafalcon
    I have seen EL2/XH2 V8's with and without EGR. As you can see below, my question when unanswered for 4.5 years, so nobody else was able to help resolve this either.

  11. #36

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    I tuned an 87 speed density with a Moats Quarterhorse for my Dad a number of years back and he is still driving it weekly today. The car has a Comp Cams Xe264 with 112 degree lobe separation. It also has AFR 164 heads, a ported Explorer intake, and Ford Racking 47pph injectors. The car runs and idles smooth.

    As for tuning, I added timing down low to compensate for the bigger cam and I had to pull fuel in the lower RPM higher load areas of the fuel map to compensate for the lower vacuum at idle and just off idle. The only problem is that when shifting from drive to reverse or vice versa, the sudden loss of load on the engine when passing through neutral causes it to overshoot the idle speed target and close the IAC motor and pull timing just as the transmission is engaging and the engine stalls. This car has a factory stall converter and I suspect a slightly higher stall speed would prevent this, but a brief pause in neutral when shifting from reverse is all it takes to keep it running.

    I forgot to mention, I had SailorBob on the EEC Tuning board generate the Definition file necessary for Binary Editor to be able to modify the Strategy that was in the ECU. I believe the catch code on that speed density automatic computer was DC.
    Last edited by svocapri; 08-24-2017 at 01:27 AM.
    Julian

    85 Capri - Hydroboost, 2004 rack conversion, Saginaw PS pump, SVO 4wheel disks & suspension Megasquirt.

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