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  1. #1
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Default Speed Density with New Heads???

    Figured I would throw this question out there, I am blown away by the knowledge some people have here.

    If I have a totally stock Speed Density engine and PCM and just put on different heads and the parts needed to correct the valve train, How good will the engine run with just that change? The heads are older Edelbrock Performer heads # E.O. D-215-46 on them.

    This is just an idea I am toying with. I plan to just stick the stock SD engine at set up in my Orange racecar for now, but I have these heads that have been hanging out in my garage for a while and the engine will be somewhat apart as I re-seal it.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    It will run fine. Just watch fuel delivery vs air.

    1.7:1 rockers will yield power gains but again watch it.

    Could always choke it with a 58MM throttlebody. Will be stout down low until it runs out of air.

    Fuel pressure can help starvation on 19lb injectors. Less timing advance will help too.

    With a good intake, good exhaust, and 65MM and aggressive timing you will likely run out of fuel way before peak power so watch it.

    I often chuckle when I hear someone got around 320HP out of a parts list that should have done far more. Better than 1/2 the time it's fuel delivery falling short.
    Last edited by erratic50; 08-01-2017 at 11:26 PM.

  3. #3
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    It will run fine. Just watch fuel delivery vs air.

    1.7:1 rockers will yield power gains but again watch it.

    Could always choke it with a 58MM throttlebody. Will be stout down low until it runs out of air.

    Fuel pressure can help starvation on 19lb injectors. Less timing advance will help too.

    With a good intake, good exhaust, and 65MM and aggressive timing you will likely run out of fuel way before peak power so watch it.

    I often chuckle when I hear someone got around 320HP out of a parts list that should have done far more. Better than 1/2 the time it's fuel delivery falling short.
    Thanks for the input, still debating this... Ill post up my progress, probably on my project page.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  4. #4
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    It'll be good, the intake is the bottle neck on the 302, specifically the #5 runner, I'd upgrade that as well.

    What you have to watch out with on SD is the cam, you want a LSA of at least 114 degrees, if less they've been known to cause drivability issues.
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  5. #5
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ourobos View Post
    It'll be good, the intake is the bottle neck on the 302, specifically the #5 runner, I'd upgrade that as well.

    What you have to watch out with on SD is the cam, you want a LSA of at least 114 degrees, if less they've been known to cause drivability issues.
    When it comes to cam upgrades I will be taking care of the pcm also... I would like to try to tune the SD system with the Moates/BE stuff... Just need a better file for the DA1 processor. I am very familiar with that set up tuning MAF system. Or I may just do a Mega Squirt upgrade.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    There is VERY little by way of documentation for tuning a SD ECU. So little that no dyno shops in a 250 mile radius of me that I found will touch one. That's why I went to MAF. It's an A9L but I clearly lost some power -- even after my performance parts upgrades.

    As for SD ECU's as far as I know the VM1 from the early 86 HO's is by far the best performing factory tune. The VR1 is marginally better than the DS1 but far less aggressive than the VM1. The later ECUs were tuned to pull timing out and avoid transmission breakage issues.

    You can literally HEAR the difference between these ECU's -- even at idle. When I threw my VM1 in my son's 86 and set the timing to 13.5 degrees before TDC where mine spent most of its life it was like hearing a ghost. I hadn't heard the idle tone and rev range sounds my 86 made with a VM1 in years. Closest thing to it I've heard, although mine has a mid 80's SD friendly FMS cam in it.

    Anyway - if you can tune it great. Publish the details so others can too!

    Rather than worry about the stock 86T5 we installed a T5Z when we replaced my son's rear main and put in a nice new Zoom clutch kit.
    Last edited by erratic50; 08-03-2017 at 12:59 PM.

  7. #7
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    There is VERY little by way of documentation for tuning a SD ECU. So little that no dyno shops in a 250 mile radius of me that I found will touch one. That's why I went to MAF. It's an A9L but I clearly lost some power -- even after my performance parts upgrades.

    As for SD ECU's as far as I know the VM1 from the early 86 HO's is by far the best performing factory tune. The VR1 is marginally better than the DS1 but far less aggressive than the VM1. The later ECUs were tuned to pull timing out and avoid transmission breakage issues.

    You can literally HEAR the difference between these ECU's -- even at idle. When I threw my VM1 in my son's 86 and set the timing to 13.5 degrees before TDC where mine spent most of its life it was like hearing a ghost. I hadn't heard the idle tone and rev range sounds my 86 made with a VM1 in years. Closest thing to it I've heard, although mine has a mid 80's SD friendly FMS cam in it.

    Anyway - if you can tune it great. Publish the details so others can too!

    Rather than worry about the stock 86T5 we installed a T5Z when we replaced my son's rear main and put in a nice new Zoom clutch kit.
    I also have a VM1 PCM , I also feel like the Early SD systems make good power, but with full calibration control you can really make it run how ever you need to with a MAF PCM. I have a A3M1 in my Blue car. It has just been my opinion that many people on this site are not too into aftermarket stuff, so I don't post much about it. (im totally ok with it)
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  8. #8
    FEP Power Member Ourobos's Avatar
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    All the big boy 1500+hp SBF race cars use a speed density setup.. So it's tunable
    1986 CHP SSP Coupe

  9. #9

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    I know a guy that ran trickflow heads in a 86gt in the mid 90's. He was running 12's on the stock tune with bumped up fuel pressure and 19#ers.

    I think it would run fine, but you might have problems getting enough fuel. All the tuning stuff seems to be limited to mass air since that is what most fuel injected mustangs had.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  10. #10
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ourobos View Post
    It'll be good, the intake is the bottle neck on the 302, specifically the #5 runner, I'd upgrade that as well.

    What you have to watch out with on SD is the cam, you want a LSA of at least 114 degrees, if less they've been known to cause drivability issues.
    So a LSA of 110* may be an issue?
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Allways the 115 lobe centerline average for EFi.

    Works much better than the stock carb 109 lobe center. Ford got everything sorted when they went wide. Our early VAM 4.1 liter EFi Fords ran 109's, not a a good choice. The 2.8 Injection were the first cars to run wide lobe centers, and the injected engines came a live with it.

    Something to do with the fuel not having any time of concentration before it hits the back on the intake valve. All EFi's are pretty much the same.

    If its carbed with a well set up, big 4-bbl, narrower lobe centers, and if its got a great intake, it'll love more duration and lift, even Holley's which are renown for being easy to over cook with too much duration Like more of everything.


    EFi cam timing wasn't large LCA'd because of emissions, but because that's what port EFI loves.

  12. #12
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    Allways the 115 lobe centerline average for EFi.
    Good input as usual

    Found a E303 cam... I think Ill pass on it. Im just so undecided on this "alternate" engine build... I may just put the damn thing in totally stock. Its always fun to whoop people with a stock powerplant
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I noticed that if the fuel to cylinder distance was big, Ford left the cam LCA the same as the carb engines. Speed densities are total airflow dependent, so the right cam then has to be run with MAF, and then the speed density algoritm constants changed, just like MegSquirt.

    First Speed densities were the CFi 5.0. Ford added a 115 cam to them when the cam lift and duration went up.


    Bigger cam lift and duration, bigger LCA (Eg 93 Cobra SVT = 118 )
    Small cam lift and duration, tighter LCA (Eg Explorer5.0, 255 = 107.5 )

    Fords cams masters were all pretty much defined by 1973, and the modern SVO cam profiles were a remaster of the old tried and true 1965 to 1973 cams. Ford use the cam Lobe Center variation to allow it to use its master cam profiles.

    These days, good cutsom cams are the total answer. They nail the LCA right in most cases.


    Care of EBXR8380 from http://www.fordmods.com/ford-turbo-s...-t3323-15.html


    Here is a selection of Ford cams.
    Compare them...
    Cam OE Number Type Int Lift Exh Lift Int Dur Exh Dur Int Dur@.050 Exh Dur@.050 Lobe Centerline
    289 4bbl C3AZ-6250-E Hydraulic .368 .380 182 187 109
    289 HiPerf Mechanical .477 .477 228 228 114
    255 V8 80,81 EOSE-6250-AA Hydraulic .380 .380 244 244 107.5
    302 4bbl 1969 C9OZ-6250-C Hydraulic .460 .460 218 218 113
    351C 4bbl 1972 D2ZZ-6250-B Hydraulic .481 .490 206 220 115
    351W HO EOAZ-6250-A Hydraulic .444 .452 206 221 115
    351W Lightning
    82-84 5.0L HO

    84-85 5.0L CFI
    D3OE-6250-AA Hydraulic .416 .445 260 274 198 208 114.5
    4.2L V6 Hydraulic Roller .445 .455 278 282 113.5
    5.0L BASE E5AE-AA,F1AE-AA Hydraulic Roller .379 .395 244 256 107.5
    5.0L Cobra F3ZE-6250-CA Hydraulic Roller .479 .479 270 270 209 209 118
    5.0L HO 85-88 E5ZE-6250-AA Hydraulic Roller .444 .444 266 266 115
    5.0L HO 89-95 E8ZE-CA,F1ZE-AA,F4ZE-DA Hydraulic Roller .444 .444 266 276 115.5
    5.0L 79 GT D6OE-6250-AA Hydraulic .381 .397 244 256 107.5
    5.0L Truck, Explorer F4TE-6250-BA Hydraulic Roller .422 .448 256 266 116
    351W 2bbl Hydraulic .416 .416 260 260 114

    Ahhh try this link...Calibrated better...
    Parent site http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/ra...specmoteur.htm "SPÉCIFICATION DES ARBRES À CAME"

  14. #14
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    If it's a cheap street build, just throw some 1.7:1 rockers at it. If you want it to run R's retard the cam 4 degrees, use strong pushrods, do the lifter mod or crank the oil pressure to the moon, and run better springs. Port the intake or throw a Typhoon EFI at it. Run headers and high flow exhaust.

    Your limiting factor will be fuel supply but as another post said, that can be worked around with more fuel pressure.

    You could REALLY screw with people and body work then paint your heads so they look like crappy old E6SE heads that were painted. Heck while you are at it hide a 100 shot wet kit.

    Surprise!

    Happy wrenching!

  15. #15
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic50 View Post
    If it's a cheap street build, just throw some 1.7:1 rockers at it. If you want it to run R's retard the cam 4 degrees, use strong pushrods, do the lifter mod or crank the oil pressure to the moon, and run better springs. Port the intake or throw a Typhoon EFI at it. Run headers and high flow exhaust.

    Your limiting factor will be fuel supply but as another post said, that can be worked around with more fuel pressure.

    You could REALLY screw with people and body work then paint your heads so they look like crappy old E6SE heads that were painted. Heck while you are at it hide a 100 shot wet kit.

    Surprise!

    Happy wrenching!
    Lifter mod?
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  16. #16
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    I noticed that if the fuel to cylinder distance was big, Ford left the cam LCA the same as the carb engines. Speed densities are total airflow dependent, so the right cam then has to be run with MAF, and then the speed density algoritm constants changed, just like MegSquirt.

    First Speed densities were the CFi 5.0. Ford added a 115 cam to them when the cam lift and duration went up.


    Bigger cam lift and duration, bigger LCA (Eg 93 Cobra SVT = 118 )
    Small cam lift and duration, tighter LCA (Eg Explorer5.0, 255 = 107.5 )

    Fords cams masters were all pretty much defined by 1973, and the modern SVO cam profiles were a remaster of the old tried and true 1965 to 1973 cams. Ford use the cam Lobe Center variation to allow it to use its master cam profiles.

    These days, good cutsom cams are the total answer. They nail the LCA right in most cases.


    Care of EBXR8380 from http://www.fordmods.com/ford-turbo-s...-t3323-15.html




    Parent site http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/ra...specmoteur.htm "SPÉCIFICATION DES ARBRES À CAME"
    My Blue car is a custom cam, love it. Just trying to do my first "budget" "on the cheap" build. Its now that I realize how much $$$ I have in my blue car.

    I will be tuning the Ford SD PCM. Curious to get it built and see how tuning goes. I am very familiar with the Mega Squirt stuff, we run it on all our Miata race cars. Good stuff
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  17. #17
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    If you are tuning then you can throw larger injectors at it.

    To mod a lifter for higher RPM and valve spring seat pressure you open up each lifter and shim it to ~0.20" of travel. Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords June 2007 page 210. Joe Sherman racing and comp both offer short travel lifters where this is already done.

    My dad would always build his bottom ends within .001 of the loosest tolerance on every bearing to prevent bearing washout then put in a stronger spring in the pressure regulator. His motors carry 90 psi of oil pressure at idle. Hand ported heads and a decent intake and better valve springs willingly revs way past 7000.

    Each mod has a calculated risk that goes with it. We would usually go the oil pressure route because it's easy and just make sure pushrod length was right.

    Theres something unnatural about a smallblock devoid of most exotic parts with just basic body and paint scale based piston and rod balancing turning north of 8500. What a blast.

  18. #18
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    8500... That's crazy. Stock block? The guy I bought the car from ran tons of high rev stuff (I have one) extremely light internals, big valve train stuff, precision balancing ,ect... Stock blocks even cryo treated would split in half just past 8200 rpm. They just couldn't handle the harmonics at that rpm.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  19. #19
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    I had always wondered if cryo treating was making things weaker. Maybe not weaker, but exposing internal casting flaws?
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  20. #20
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    There are articles that detail balancing piston, ring, pin, rod, and rod bolt packages-- down to the gram. Doing that eliminates much of the vibration you are talking about. But yes- those kind of R's are insane. You run into feet per second problems with the ring packages at stock 302 stroke at around 7500 based upon the physics formulas. The other 750 RPM are - for sure - a wing and a prayer.

    The 289's have a shorter stroke and require 28 oz of imbalance rather than 50. Both will help get there.

    Me personally - I plan to stop at 6750 because the intakes that perform past that give up a lot of fun to drive on the street torque down low.

    Btw - that oil pressure trick stuff works on Mopar and Chevy and Buick too.... I helped build a 318 with 340 heads that dominated the dirt track in our bomber class for two full seasons turning past 8000 then went into a 68 challenger. The crank snapped in half while the owner was racing my 86 for fun back in the early 90's. My Buick 350 had the 8500 RPM tach buried and was pulling hard on the guy behind me when it threw a rod through the side of the block. There is a price to pay for making them scream. Oh well! I'd do it again- just not to a motor I give a crap about.

  21. #21
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    I hear ya. Was trying not to get to crazy with this engine. It was just goona be a throw in motor... Just keeping it simple for now.

    I spin my Blue car to 7200, even that sounds crazy, its a 347.
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

  22. #22

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    On an injected motor the computer can't handle higher speeds. The 6200rpm cut off is because the stock computer can only spin around 6500rpms if i remeber right before it runs out of processing power. The newer computer eec-v can supposedly.

    You loose power at higher rpms usually because of weak springs and valvetrain. When the valves bounce and hit a piston its game over.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  23. #23
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Agreed on factory rev limiter at 6250. It's hard coded into the program.

    The cars I went nuts with on R's or helped to do so were all carbed. Agreed on valve control. Pushrod Flex is a huge concern too- for those the stronger the better. They fill with oil anyway so it's not like there is a lot of weight savings to talk about.

    Time will tell on the ECU processing limits front. If I can't hit the 6750 rev limiter that's tuned into my quarterhorse board after I throw on the heads and cam, and injectors and switch to E85 - we'll know why.

    Lifter collapse will cause a motor to "tap out" early and not make it to the cam and induction and spark potential peak. It often comes with strong valve springs and not enough oil pressure to keep them pumped up.

    Agreed on piston/valve contact. Potentially a grenade!

  24. #24
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Yea - we are all a bunch of gear heads. We talk about a mild upgrade on a stock setup and the next thing you know we've identified every single part needed to make it scream-- again. Just can't leave well enough alone.

    talk is cheap thankfully! I have a huge stash of parts I've yet to put on my 86, and honestly it's because that is a lot of work and takes time I don't have. Plus it's just so damn good compared to other 80's marvels in stock form in the first place. You mess with them then the next thing you know you lose the entire personality that makes them so much fun to drive.

    Thsts not to say mods are a miss. I do not regret for a second doing any of the things I've done so far to mine. I wish I would have had them at 100K rather than over 450K! I think of all of the miles I drove mine in 99% stock form but turned up. But would I have made it this far if I modded it back when I was 10 feet tall and billet proof in my mind - I doubt it.

    My son's 86 is for all practical purposes exactly what mine was when I ran up all the miles. And the beauty of that is I know odds are his will also get him from point A to point B at a time in his life where so much is determined simply by showing up.

  25. #25
    FEP Power Member Mikestang's Avatar
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    Humm, I changed the rev limit in my QH chip. I have definitely hit 7000 with my set up. It is set higher in the pcm. The high rev stuff is interesting to me, failures are interesting to see. Expensive but I haven't had to deal worn that on my end. I had a FRPP balancer explode at above 6000... So much for the sfi rating. It was after that I learned those were junk
    1986 Ford Mustang GT-

    Not much stock stuff left
    347 NA power, CNC ported heads, Extrude honed Trick Flow Intake, Custom Cam
    Suspension, custom k- member, TQ arm/pan hard rod... Much more
    Restored and ready to race, made to go fast while cornering

    1981 Mustang GT-

    Old SCCA A-Sedan National Champ car
    In the middle of rebuild

    1986 LX Sedan-

    Plans to be determined...

    "Every day I learn how much I don't know"

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