Battle of the Carbs

[Mike Alan Grosvenor]

I have a '84 GT 350 with the wonderfully worthless cfi system on it.
Looking to swap over to a 4 barrel carb, any thoughts?
Planning on a Edelbrock top end kit 2027, with a ..........1406 performer or a Street avenger 0-83570.
Any thoughts?
Reason i was thinking about the Holley is because ive heard about some low vacuum issues in the 1406, and Holley claims to be good in that catagory.

[KevinK]

If you do a search here, there are few posts on using the stock cfi and convert to 2 barrel carb. It should be a bit simpler.

[brianj]

My opinion, pretty much any carb will work fine. You just need to learn all of the tips, tricks and techniques to tune whichever one you decide to go with. Myself, i will probably go with a Fitech or Sniper type efi setup from now on.

[wraithracing]

Remember that the 1406 is tuned for Fuel Economy NOT HP!!! PaceFever79 has a whole thread devoted to tuning and working on his. http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...6-Carb-Read-On

Helped me sort out a few issues I was having with mine. Basically everyone thinks the 1406 is a 1405 with the electric choke and that is NOT the case. I still like my 1406, but there are definitely a few things on it that needed some attention to work well with a slightly modified 5.0.

I used to run Holleys but after years of fighting the constantly changing idle and few other issues, I gave the Edelbrock a try. Holley still makes a great product, but IF I run a carb, I will probably stick with the Edelbrock. Good luck!

[xctasy]

If its CFi, convert it to EFI. 90% of the stuff is there already.

Carb tuning is "Running Against the Wind".

EFi is just a case of "what to leave in, what to leave out".

The issue with carb tunning is that Ford spent billions on cold start emissions, and the answer was the the Idle Stop Solenoid, the A/C kicker, VOTM, the choke pulloff, the twin snorkle intake with hot air stove, the 2 stage power valve with aggressive spark advance on the Duraspark.

And the 2150 Motorcraft and 4180c carbs.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...lenoid-on-carb

If you use metering rod carb, you then have to look at doing a new set up. Every Street Demon, Edelbrock, Rochester or Carter AVS/AFB/Themoquad uses the time honered and truely excellent Carter style metering rod and jet.

Cale and other guys with a more Mopar background like brainj have simply used the massive amount of lean to rich metering rod and jet combinations to sort the general jetting, then its a case of getting the curb idle right with the different cold to warm and P/S, A/C and alternator accessory loads.

If it has to pass emission control, then all later model Metering Rods carbs are just a total cluster Puk of truely useless undoing of 52 years of Clean Air Act advances, designed for the Sale and to escape CARB, EPA, SEMA, and Burea of Varifications litigation.

Its sort of like the aftermarket industry is telling you, go ahead, drop your clothes, wheo needs it anyway, and then, come registration time, your naked.

Carb options have been discussed, its hard to better a 4180c, but you can if you look at other metering rod carbs.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nt-carb-for-83

The solution to making those carbs work with Emission Control were the 1976 to 1985 302C and 351C 4-bbl 2V headed 188 to 216 hp net Thermoquad Carter 4-bbls. They didn't use a Thermactor system, or the Windsor 5.0 EGR cross over port, so there are some variances, but the Aussie Australiand Design Rule 27a, 27B, and the NSW 27C revison. They were all leaded fuel, US 1973 compliant engines, but were 8.9 to 9.4:1 compression and ran un leaded 97 octane.

Any DSO/VIN H,B,T or P code Aussie engine block will meet your 1981 to 1985 carb engine requirements if the thermactor and basic emissions gear is used.


The Aussie stuff used the Autolite distributor body with the small pre Duraspark cap, and a 17" air cleaner like your 4V Single snorkel 5.8 351 /370/429/460 F trucks. It was essentially a 351/400/460 Autolite/ Motorcraft 4-BBL4350 replacement carb, and the emissions package varied a little over the 9 years, but it served the needs of 3200 to 4200 pound Luxo barges and Falcon Cobras.




http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nt-carb-for-83

It used a throttle postioner



EGR and spacer to suit a 4BBL 4350/ Thermoquad/ Quadrajet intake manifold with 2V 302c/351c heads




A Bosch made conversion to the common Presolite/Autolite base the Duraspark I and II were made from.

This is the Bosch Duraspark for a 351C 2V headed 4bbl



It ran a four vacuum tree TVS system to control the EGR, spark sustain and A/C advance

Red, Black and two white manifold trees, one behind by the EGR, and one in front.





The two white manifold trees, one behind by the EGR, and one in front.



Generally, a proper Electric choke and idle throttle solenoid fixes most problems

[xctasy]

Basically, you copy the factory NOS or aftermarket bits that work to make a metering rod carb idle. You find a vac schematic, and look for the NOS Ford Solepot Solenoid most of the emissions era 4 bbls annd 2bbls used, and the good rod operated kickdown attachment if your stuck with an Auto, and your basically on the road.


All of Fords best emissions development work was in 1973, when we got the Marine cam (1980 G code LTD 5.8 2bbl) and Torino (1982 Mustang GT 5.0 /Capri RS 5.0) cam profiles, and the same Roller cam Explorer 5.0 SUV cam profile in hyraulic flat tappet form in the 400 and 351 M and base 351 2V engines.

The carb of choice for Ford 4 bbls was the Boss 351 C 4V carb, the 750 cfm spreadbore Motorcraft 4350G. It lasted till 1978, and then got replaced by the Holley 4180C/4190C carbs in F-truck and E -van Windsor 351's, 429/460's and some 370 4V Lima F600 trucks as well. Ford didn't like using Carter carbs, as it took away some production capacity from Autolite, but from 1968 to 1989, it had no suitable replacement carbs because of some serious legal issues to do with the patents held by Autolite, which was effectively Fords approved carb and electrical supplier. Those anti trust laws caused some serious issues.


Ford used the Carter built GM Rochester Quadrajet on some 4-bbl 429 for one year.

For US passenger cars, from 1979 till 1983, the 4bbl was effectively ditched. The key is that Ford made the metering rod carbs work 100% in a lot of other cars, well about 75 000 4-bbl 302 and 351s made from July 1976 until the last 5.8 XLT Bronco was made in Australia.

For international sale to De Tomaso, all engines were Swiss emission spec engines in 5.8 De Tomasos till 1989. So thats 13 years of Thermoquad success world wide. The only alteration required was an anti roll over gas sintered gas VESSOR restrictor for UK LTD's and some De Tomasos that required UK Type approval.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...p-passing-smog

No-one remembers the Amerisport Pantera grey imports, as they were CKD (completely knocked down kits, not CBU, completely built up). From Round at the ends and HI in the middle Ohio. Cleveland rocks.

They had ballistic Aussie made Cleveland NASCAR/SVO blocks, and were sort of forgotten as everyone thought they were just reheated 75 Pantera L's.

You know, the one Elvis was reputed to have shot with his gun when it wouldn't start due to vapour lock. "A 168 mph car fails to get you away from your fans", or. "Nice guy shoots Panther" isn't a great Lincoln Mercury sales line.



Well, the Aussies were making US 1973 Emissions compliant 216 hp 5.8 Cleveland 4V's for De Tomaso, and even organised a restart of the production four years after the last Cleveland tooling engines were cast in Geeolong back in 1982. Ford Motorsport sold the Aussie blocks for a while, so bonafide Panteras with 351C were around 10 to 13 years after the engine was pensioned off in the US. Having said that, some Broncos and F150's and some Excalibers were running the tall block 351M and even the 400 till 1983, so it wasn't like there weren't US options around for it.

From 1987 to 1990, the over seas Panteras had all sorts of engine, be they good old 351 W truck engines, or Aussie Motorsport blocks, then the ill fated but much improved 5 liter versions came out in Europe, which technically flopped, but had 305 hp 5.0 GT40 style roller cam engines with all the good gear.

For the US, since the 351C could use 351M 400 Ford spec heads, the unleaded gas issues were easy fixed. The US 4180 600 cfm carb used in the 5.0 HO and 460 4v engines was a cinch. Cat exhasts and getting emissions passes was a case of blending the 351m F150 stuff into the 351C format. And since the Super Cobra Jet and 351 HO engines of 1973 and some non compliant 74 versions had a good EGR intake manifold, it wasn't a problem getting the vital 13 emissions structures organised. TFI ignition and all the hard stuff was ex Lima 460, so it all bolted in.

Its forgotten that 7200 of these aften badly welded, but awesome beasts got released. GT40 gearbox, Pinto rack and pinion, Ansa quad exhasts, Cleveland engine and Ghia styling, what's not to like? Even arrest me red and 335 P7's sort of make a Lamborghini LP400S look...tame!


In both Aussie at the Toy Shop and in Ohio, Italian Panteras were made up better than the orginal. Awesome, forgotten rides, e.e.e.e, the most eddible eightees exotica eva!

The other one was the Aussie market DeTomaso Longchamps Convertable, it was deamed an ugly, grass European by a lot of the press, but for me, it ecplises the Pantera as the 80's car I'd like to own. Aussie Falcon 351c, C6, Dana gear US made Salisbury IRS, European Granada headlamps, Maserati Bora/Indy tail lights. 409 of these beasts saw the light of day, and it begat the 4.9 liter Maserti Kylamai. I guess it was deamed another crass Alasandro cast off, but not by me.

Here is the worst I could find, Corvette hood scoop to make people see a Mustang Cobra was not really over done after all



and better, this one

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...06-13_A_ji.jpg


My favorite non convert is this guy who can no longer walk, but what a car for guy who's missed the grace of being able to walk any longer...he's at least got the best lookin machine around



Tom Tjaarda's crease in the Italian Suit styling is just what I love about my Jack Telnack Mustang. The real reason the Longchamp never hit town was that the US Foxes stole all the Ghia pressing features which Tjaarda did so well. Can you say "Chopped 'n' channelled Fox"

[Walking-Tall]

1. A 3310 750/780cfm vacuum secondary... the older, the better. If you want a good carburetor, get an old carburetor. Numerous (pretty, fancy, scary-named ones like "Street Avenger" etc., marketed with 70 and more cfm than they actually flow) newer ones are plagued with quality FUNCTION problems that never were problems before. Grab one cheap, disassemble it, clean it up, and put a kit in it. Done. There's a healthy 302 in an '88 Mustang running around here with one on it I put together, and it works great.
If you're leaning toward the 600cfm area, and insist on one...
2. Shameless self promotion: I currently have a good shape, completely gone-thru LIST-80457 600 up for grabs...
LINK

... and/or, look for a LIST-80457 or LIST-1850 600 and do as in #1 above...

[erratic50]

On my 351W in my Galaxie I cussed my Holley 650 double pumper until the day I added it to the parts shelf. 360 degree offy and fuelie heads made for a terrible combo in winter. Even set pig rich dumping fuel out the exhaust it would pop out the carb and blow power valves at $15-20 a shot.

Thermoquad was lots better but mine was very worn and had problems leaking vacuum at the throttle pins on the base.

eventually went to a Carter AFB. It was the same thing as the Edelbrock of that time period and a great match for that motor. Fuel atomized way finer- worked as well as I could ever expect even at -20F and colder.

And I know some are confident the Holley could have been made to work, etc. The car always ran like crap with that carb regardless of how well I cleaned it of how carefully things we replaced and adjusted.

1000% agree EFI is the way to go. Don't look back!