Newest carb swap dilemma . . .

[Littlecharlot]

I'm swapping out the CFI for a Holley two barrel carb and was wondering if anyone has done this or might know how to deal with the TV cable?

I've seen certain kits for the four barrel Holley and Edelbrock, but nothing for the two barrel. Any chance that I might be able to remove the brackets/levers/etc. from the CFI and adapt them to work on the Holley. Cut, weld, re-shape, bend, botch, no problem if I could make it all work out.

Of COURSE, any help or tips or info or suggestions would really be appreciated. I was thinking in terms of a SBC when I began this, simple and stupid. Kinda finding the SBF to be a much more complicated animal. Everything on these engines needs careful thought and attention, from the water pump choice, to the pulley size and arrangement, on through to the trans hook-up and carb height.

Learning slowly, but always seem to needing help from you guys.

Thanks !

[xctasy]

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...e-and-tv-cable


Accelerator Cable == connected to the Accelerator.

TV cable = Transmission Throttle Valve Cable is connected to the transmission

The accelerator cable shouldn't limit TV operation.



You have two choices.

The choice of an upper link added, which is the early FMX/C4/C5 rod type found on 2-BBL Autolites and Motorcrafts. Fords early AOD was really a rod operated downshift cable converted to the Throttle valve.

or the Lokar lower link.




At the transmission




At the carb, the Lokar low mount.

if your no longer using the stock Ford vac operated throttle modulator, VOTM, your best setting up a MOROSO throttle stop on your Holley 2300 to stop over shifting.

If mounting the stock Ford accelerator cable to the Holley 2300

Rework a Summit TV cable throttle corretor bracket (SUM-700203)




The TV cable copies the ages old Borg Warner 35 downshift linkage. It has a curb adjustment setting, which varires from application from 1/8 to 5/16" pullout, but typically 0.265 to 0.3125", The TV pressure is about 38psi in neutral (warm trans) with the gauge spacer block installed.

Without it, it drops to just 3psi with the block removed.

Big Al H describes the process.
See http://www.network54.com/Forum/26073...uestion+thread

[RickFury]

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...e-and-tv-cable

The choice of an upper link added, which is the early FMX/C4/C5 rod type found on 2-BBL Autolites and Motorcrafts. Fords early AOD was really a rod operated downshift cable converted to the Throttle valve.

or the Lokar lower link.


The TV cable copies the ages old Borg Warner 35 downshift linkage. It has a curb adjustment setting, which varires from application from 1/8 to 5/16" pullout, but typically 0.265 to 0.3125", The TV pressure is about 38psi in neutral (warm trans) with the gauge spacer block installed.

Without it, it drops to just 3psi with the block removed.

Interesting.

So are you saying that the TV cable is the more "natural" choice to work the throttle valve of the AOD than the early Ford method of converting their downshift rod to work the throttle valve?

In other words, is one method better than the other?

Which one is easier to adjust? The TV rod or TV cable?

[Walking-Tall]

Holley 2300's have the same throttle shaft actuating bracket (where throttle cable and return springs connect) on it's throttle shaft as a 4150/4160 4-barrel. What you'd need to manufacture/convert/fabricate is the TV cable anchor, that usually mounts onto the four-barrel's driver's side rear stud/nut. Shouldn't be too difficult to make and add an add-on anchor bracket to the original bracket that anchors the throttle cable, that bolts down to the intake.

[Littlecharlot]

Thanks for the help guys !

Not at all interested in going the Locar route, looks like something out of a replica street rod and I'm shooting for a masquerade of what might have come from Ford. Looks like I'm gonna try to fabricate that TV cable anchor or look towards what was used on the Autolites and Motorcrafts. I have a Motorcraft two barrel down cellar from the early seventies, maybe that has some bracketry that I can make use of.

I checked out a handful of videos on adjusting the TV cable and it seems much simpler than I was told. I also found a seller who had that little off-set throttle arm addition to move the TV cable mount rearward a smidge. Expensive as can be for what it is, but if it works to correct the geometry and is as easy to instal as they claim, it's worth the hosing.

[xctasy]

Interesting.

So are you saying that the TV cable is the more "natural" choice to work the throttle valve of the AOD than the early Ford method of converting their downshift rod to work the throttle valve?

In other words, is one method better than the other?

Which one is easier to adjust? The TV rod or TV cable?

The early rod TV is really good, but its a confusing system because it top mounts, and its 2150/VV7200/CFi specific.

You can build one yourself form a stock C3/C4/C5 downshift rod, but its best to just find a 80-82 Tbird/ XR7/Panther 5.0-5.8 AOD TV rod. Or your stock, regular 84-85 5.0 CFi Stang/ Capri kind




Can't multiple quote, but slow84lx and Capriman86 have got it all from the FEP posts I've linked before.


[QUOTE]'84-'85 AOD equipped Mustangs used a TV rod. Cables started in '86. Here are a couple of links that tell you how to adjust it.

http://www.becontrols.com/tech/tvlinkage.htm

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny...st/index.shtml

[QUOTE]

See the clip on the rod, that is your TV Rod, but it SHOULD have a white bushing in there to which is critical I have read.

I have an extra one if you need it, but they are readily available at Ford and online.

The early 1980-1984 AOD's in Fox long wheelbase cars were shifter with a C4/C5 type rod kickdown linkage, which now functioned as a Throttle valve.

The Motorcraft 2150 equiped 2-bbl,
CFI 2-bbl and
Motorcraft 7200 Variable Venturi all ran AOD passing Throttle Valve linkages or cables.

The Lokar system duplicates them for a cable and for Holley 2300 2-bbl and 4150/4160/4180 4-bbls. The use a low mount system, which uses the C4/C5/C6 system flipped, and it allows you to use the forward motion of the bottom of the throttle lever to initiate kickdown. It doesn't matter if a carb is 2-bbl, 4-bbl, or even mechanical or vacuum secondary, they all have bottom holes on the throttle arm which Lokar use for the Holley to AOD adaptor.

Holley do make the Holley carbs with the Ford kickdown rod attachement. The K code Shelby GT350 H ran one. So did many of the automatic FE and truck 4180/4190 carb equiped engines. So do list 1970-1979 Ford Holley carbs for Automatics. It consisted of clip on part that works on the Motorcraft linkage hole spacings, using the Ford flat ended pressed steel end to tubular half inch or five eighths hollow rod. Its been described many times how to duplicate it (David Vizard on the C4 equiped Pinto 2000 engine), but Holley understand the liabiity issues, so they say no we don't do Holley to AOD throttle valves, buy a Lokar.


What is stock is this 300 hp 351C 4V Falcon GT 351 FMX rod kickdown item used in the 1972 Aussie Fords. It has a 4350 Autolite 4-bbl with a clip on floater linkage likke all Auto Fords had.




To make it work for any Holley, you need to do FOUR things A, B, C and D.




The Autolite 2100/4100 or Motorcraft 2150/4300/4350 linkage is cut off and connected to the Holley 2 or 4-bbl at position A.

Then at Position B, the throttle cable is attached.

Then at Position C, the kickdown is attached.


Item D is the kickdown rod, made of tube steel flattened at both ends, and bent in between on the X, Y and Z axis to clear the headers and steering column union and firewall and frame gussets.

Item D




Its end at the rod operated automatic transmission lever



Its intermediate bends to clear the obstructions




You use thicker wall stuff of nominal 1/2" to 5/8" diameter, and fashion it the same way as the stock instillation. A greenfields new instillation takes a bit of work, but the rod operated kickdown to throttle valve conversion follows this.


I did this on my Pinto 2000 engine with the 390 4-bbl and C3 auto.

The AOD style transmission throttle valve I used the AMC Rambler Rebel 231 L6 six Borg Warner 35 automatic /Chrysler Hemi 265 Valiant kickdown cable and linkage made by Chrysler Australia, and a Chevy Rochester 2CG kickdown linkage.






When using the Lokar, they just use the lower existing Holley bolt holes, as the linkage is designed to use the lower forward motion, not the top backward motion as the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkage does. That's important, because THE aod FOLLOWS THE Borg Warner pullout method. Not the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkages

You can use a kickdown rod as a throttle vlave, but it has to be torsionally strong, and has to meet the idle freeplay and pullout requirments, and be adjustable for line pressure.

[xctasy]

Here's an example of both hooked up on a standard 84-85 Panther frame Fords at http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/u...&Number=886546.




Most 5.0 CFi's came with Cruise Control/Speed Control, so the third cable in Capriman 86 and this Crownvic forum post is the Cruise cable.

Using the stock Motorcraft 2150, Motorcraft Variable Venturi VV 7200 or Motorcraft CFi


Accelerator

TV

and Cruise

linkages duplicated to your Holley 2300 will solve everything.


When you've gotten the linkage changed to FoMoCo spec,

1. Set the low order Ford adjustmnets for the 1980 to 1985 rod operated TV,

then


2. cross check it with the high order test. An oil pressure gague on the corect AOD port, and dial it up for 35 to 38 psi loaded at 5/16".

Unloaded, about 3psi.


Ford really did a good job with this system, not many understand how good it is.

[Littlecharlot]

"The Autolite 2100/4100 or Motorcraft 2150/4300/4350 linkage is cut off and connected to the Holley 2 or 4-bbl at position A."

And where would that be?

Can't make out the arrows in the photo. I have the Motorcraft carb to cut the linkage off of, wondering just where it attaches Anyone ever done this? Any pics of where to connect it and to what?

[xctasy]

The diagram is Pinto relevent only


On the Pinto with Holley Weber 5200/6500, they have a funny bracket. Sorry, A is not really of any concern to us here. I shoulda been more clear.


https://www.scribd.com/doc/26804743/...s-David-Vizard

Page 70

Accelerator Bracket A
Throttle B
Kickdown C



The whole throttle linkage linkage from the Autolite/ Motorcraft carb needs to be attached to the Holley 2300 linkage, by bolting, flitching, or by some safe, prudent method that doesn't have stuff falling off into the active parts of the throttle shaft, tv rod, accelerator cable, or Cruise control cable.


Like this



On my low mount Locar style adaption, I duplicated the Ford AOD like Chrysler downshift cable by using a Rochester carb throttle and a brass window opening shaft connected by very good brass screws cut down and locked into place.





Think about how the parts have to sit in terms of

S= r. theta θ



S, the shaft pullout = r times θ = theta, the angle in radians
s=r θ

Okay. Tell you five things for free. This will free you mind from any confusion that might exist. Having two yeses to a question that should have a mutually exclusive (either one, or the other) answer is always hard to fathom.

1. The Lokar cable is based on the 1974 to 1986 Colgne V6 C3 transmission kickdown linkage, but has a part that allows it to also use the ancient 1957-1991 Borg Warner 35/40/42/51 Kickdown adjustment... which is what Fords Throttle Valve actually is because inside the automatic, there is a cam that controls line pressure of the shifts, and the shift points hang on that. Its basically 1957 Rambler American automatic gearbox technology used on some Borg Warner automatics. Its a US devised system which works very well, but it is a paest to understand.

The AOD is an ancient but bullet proof reheated Detroit Gear/Borg Warner/FMX transmission design, and Ford engineers in updating it to an integrated overdrive, reverted to the static set up instructions used on the early cam operated kickdowns on the DG and some BW auto gearboxes.

2. I've mastered the art of throttle cables and throttle valves. The Ford empire world wide used the throttle valve system in its Borg Warner 35 kickdonw cable from 1965 to 1972 in Europe and the United Kigndom, and in the Aussie Fords for a lot longer than that. Ford have a default set up instruction for the AOD which is exactly, and I mean, exactly, the same as the 1965 to 1991 Borg Warner 3-speed automatic gearbox. My foreign 1984 Falcon 4.1 Borg Warner 35 automatic used the exact same set up as the AOD. But that is just a ball park set up. To get it right, you just have to hook a pressure gauge to the transmission, and you can get it dialed in perfect. If you don't do it, right, you get what I call roll-out thump, a line pressure related problem that will burn up your clutch pack in short order. To understand that, you have to understand that everything is inter-related. If you change the throttle cable , you upset the stock AOD settings, and then that invalidates the target line pressure Ford was aiming for in the AOD set up. However, if you understand what a throttle cable with more or less pull out at the carb does to the AOD pullout, then you'll be all good. The throttle pendants mechanical advantage can be changed a little, but generally, the Fox throttle copies the amemded 1970 Mustang cable used in all X shell cars and most full size Fords from that year.




3. In my former life with in line Ford sixes, we used Fox Fairmont or 1970 Mustang cables for the throttle for our Autolite/Motorcraft or Holley carb conversions on in line sixes. There is no problem with the Lokar throttle cable, throttle vlave cable, or its fittings. It is just part numbers, though, and they use schematics which aren't really easy to understand. IMHO, It is the best engineered kickdown or throttle valve ever made, Lokar's kit can cope with AOD or C3, C4, C5, C6 from the same kit. It has catholic (with a small c) importance because it coveres all scenarios. Because it coveres all scenarios, it requires quite a lot of simple math to unlock its interplay with the throttle cable, the throttle valve, and how all that influences the line pressure of the shifts. Once you understand that, then you'll know exactly what do to with the throttle cable.

4. Before we start any thing on this throttle cable, throttle valve, line pressure interplay, remember






I like the stock Ford AOD set up rules (also shared with the Ford Falcon Borg Warner auto used in foreign Fords).


There is a stock setting of about 5/16 " of slack pullout with the engine off after idling. The base adjustment must be that. Then a total of 1-3/4" pull out at curb idle to Wide open throttle with the engine off.

θ = the angle in radians. The total throttle moment θ in a Holley carb is 80 degrees or 1.396 radians from curb idle to WOT. s= 1.75" in a decimal form for most Ford AOD TV cables. Now the kicker is that if you have more or less throttle movment, you can overload the throttle with the AOD TV cable. Or if the TV cable is not in spec, your wide open throttle can drop from 80 degrees to perhaps 75. And this is sadly all to common for automatic gearboxs which are no longer using the stock set up protocols. Image loosing 20 hp just becasue the throttle valve cable isn't correctly set up....or less throttle cable or throttle valve cable will do to your car.


http://fordsix.com//viewtopic.php?f=...545832#p545832

[KevinVarnes]

If you aren't looking to reinvent the wheel and want to make sure it is correct out of the box then get one of these: https://www.summitracing.com/search/...ssion-type/aod

I have one on the Holley on my Crown Vic. Simple to install.

[xctasy]

TCI have the cable trans stuff nailed well....they are low mount cable links. Thats what I did on my Aussie In line six Ford Falcons, 4 and 6 cylinder Cortinas. The Locar copies V6 Cologne practice...cable operated on Europeans. All low mount cables.

But the upper mount rod operated kickdowns and TV rods, they modulate perfectly and are much better than the recoiling cable...just kinda old fashioned.

Its a shame they were wasted on the US transmissions....the 351C FMX and some of the Big Block C6's were the only really great, responsive auto trans. With a rod kickdown, the AOD is still a early up shifting pop into top in a jot gearbox. No miracles were wrought. Someone in Ford knew that the rod would do the job, it reates up there with the 63-67 Dual Quad 427/428 FE throttle linkage as one of the best pieces of engineering ever.

The only reason I like automatics is because Henry Ford loved planetary gear sets and whats good for Henry is good for me. An AOD is an unresponsive pile of cattle excerement, that with spit polish and 500 dollars of parts, gets up a begs.

[RickFury]

The early rod TV is really good, but its a confusing system because it top mounts, and its 2150/VV7200/CFi specific.

So, a TV cable is better in that it is a simpler system than the Ford TV rod?

When using the Lokar, they just use the lower existing Holley bolt holes, as the linkage is designed to use the lower forward motion, not the top backward motion as the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkage does. That's important, because THE aod FOLLOWS THE Borg Warner pullout method. Not the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkages

So rather than engineering a TV cable at that time, Ford *adapted* their existing kickdown rods from the C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX transmissions and modified them into a TV rod to work the throttle valve in an AOD? The earlier AODs with the TV rod uses a "backward" motion, even though the AOD really follows the Borg Warner "pullout" method.

The only way to use the "pullout" method is with a TV cable. So does that mean a TV cable is really the better choice?

But the upper mount rod operated kickdowns and TV rods, they modulate perfectly and are much better than the recoiling cable...just kinda old fashioned.

So now the Ford TV rod is better than a TV cable?

With a rod kickdown, the AOD is still a early up shifting pop into top in a jot gearbox. No miracles were wrought. Someone in Ford knew that the rod would do the job, it reates up there with the 63-67 Dual Quad 427/428 FE throttle linkage as one of the best pieces of engineering ever.

Are you saying the Ford TV rod is better than the TV cable, from an engineering standpoint? But why is that, if the AOD follows the Borg Warner "pullout" method and NOT "backward" motion of the Ford C3/C4/C5/C6/FMX rod linkages?

There is no problem with the Lokar throttle cable, throttle vlave cable, or its fittings. IMHO, It is the best engineered kickdown or throttle valve ever made, Lokar's kit can cope with AOD or C3, C4, C5, C6 from the same kit.

So then, a Lokar TV cable is better engineered than the Ford TV rod?

But, above you clearly said the Ford TV rod "rates up there as one of the best pieces of engineering ever?"

Which is it?

I always wondered if the Ford TV rod or the Lokar TV cable was better for an AOD with a carburetor. But now I am more confused than ever!

[xctasy]

So then, a Lokar TV cable is better engineered than the Ford TV rod?

But, above you clearly said the Ford TV rod "rates up there as one of the best pieces of engineering ever?"

Which is it?

I always wondered if the Ford TV rod or the Lokar TV cable was better for an AOD with a carburetor. But now I am more confused than ever!

The Lokar system is very well engineered, but far inferior to the Ford TV rod in everyway.


TV rod is best for 2 or 4bbl type instillations. Its a set an forget proposition. Rod TV was just a totally simple upper mount clip on, the way it had been done on every carb V8 since 1968 ish.

TV cable was a response to the engine bay requirements of port EFI, starting 1986. Its versitile, and goes anywhere, but comparitively, it has some issues with cable bind, long term setting changes, and there is the understanding it issue...they change the pivot point at the gearbox, and swap the T bar or column shift linkage indexing to suit the application, so its got a few other things to set up, copy and maintain.



The problem in the Mid 85 area became how to fit a TV rod to a 5.0 Port EFI car the might have three different engine bay postions for the throttle body.

1986 5.0 Foxes had a right hand throttle body,
another for the Panther which had left hand throttle body,
and yet another for a 5.0 F truck, which had a kind of front mounted Throttle body.

Low mount Cable TV was the only solution. Lokar is as hot rod as my old Borg Warner 35 kickdown cable was...they work fine if you set them up with a ballpark low end setting, then a high end pressure check.

But a few years on, and it'll need resetting. Certainly if the carb has been serviced.



The old Rod TV, well, you'd have to try real hard to make that system change its settings, even if the carb came off.

[RickFury]

The Lokar system is very well engineered, but far inferior to the Ford TV rod in everyway.


TV rod is best for 2 or 4bbl type instillations. Its a set an forget proposition. Rod TV was just a totally simple upper mount clip on, the way it had been done on every carb V8 since 1968 ish.

TV cable was a response to the engine bay requirements of port EFI, starting 1986. Its versitile, and goes anywhere, but comparitively, it has some issues with cable bind, long term setting changes, and there is the understanding it issue...they change the pivot point at the gearbox, and swap the T bar or column shift linkage indexing to suit the application, so its got a few other things to set up, copy and maintain.



The problem in the Mid 85 area became how to fit a TV rod to a 5.0 Port EFI car the might have three different engine bay postions for the throttle body.

1986 5.0 Foxes had a right hand throttle body,
another for the Panther which had left hand throttle body,
and yet another for a 5.0 F truck, which had a kind of front mounted Throttle body.

Low mount Cable TV was the only solution. Lokar is as hot rod as my old Borg Warner 35 kickdown cable was...they work fine if you set them up with a ballpark low end setting, then a high end pressure check.

But a few years on, and it'll need resetting. Certainly if the carb has been serviced.



The old Rod TV, well, you'd have to try real hard to make that system change its settings, even if the carb came off.

Thank you for clearing that up, xctasy.

I suspected the Ford TV rod was a better arrangement, but was never really sure.

I suspect the TV cable is a lot harder on throttle shafts, since it is pulling on the lower hole of the throttle lever. The Ford TV rod is attached to a separate linkage that is separate from the throttle lever.

Also, a TV cable will stretch over time and will need to be re-adjusted. There is nothing to stretch on a Ford TV rod.