Incorrect Speedometers

[AJ1398]

I wonder if anyone else has noticed sellers listing incorrect mileage for Fox cars. I've looked at a couple 1985 GTs, and three out of the four had 140 mph speedometers. The owners were listing the mileage on the odometer from the 140 mph speedometer as original miles. When I point out that the car left the factory with an 85 mph speedometer and ask to see it as well to verify mileage the owners get angry. Has anyone else encountered this problem? I've seen a lot of Mustangs like this on Ebay as well. Technically, I think it is odometer fraud and is illegal.

Has anyone else run into this or have any thoughts on the problem.


Thanks,

Rich

[xctasy]

Welcom, Rich.



Well Yes, by definition, its fraud, but no one cares at DMV as long as the odo is functioning. Its the same issue as Duplicate title and car has no title Craig List adds

......

Ever wonder why so many cars are for sale on CL with NO TITLE?

Simple!

The title has been pawned and the seller in most cases is committing Felony Fraud by selling "Mortgaged Property". Since people who do this live their lives with their best friends "Desperate and Stupid" they do no know and really do not care what they are doing and what the consequences could be if the lender chooses to pursue legal action!

All the seller knows is "I Want MY Money"!

.......

Been through this with my 1981 cars 180 km/h European/Canadian Mustang speedo on Car Fax .

For pre 17 digit VIN code cars, swapping in an electronic speedo allows you in rurla areas to totally circumvent the honest due process...its clearly not followed through in the US or banana Colonies like New Zealand...

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70419

"Re: Latest upgrades to my sons 67 Post #23 by xctasy » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:07 pm "

I custom built this gauge pod from a stock (Ebay) gauge pod using Auto Meters Cobalt gauges

How do you cope with the State DMV inspected total miles on the speedo. When you changed it, it obviously would have gone back to an electronically recorded zero miles.


What if the car is, say, layed up for 17 years...will the Autometer mileometer reading stay in the memory?

Response 1 CoupeBoy from Fargo, ND

If his home state is like my home state, they just don't care. ND does not take yearly readings of the odometer, the only time it is ever used is when the title is transferred to a new owner. And even at that, they don't verify anything. Its like saying there are Uniroyal tires and the next time there are Goodyear.. it just doesn't matter.

The only mileage concern my car ever has is with the insurance company. Every 3 years or so, they send me out a document to verify the vehicle status and mileage. I don't know why they care about the mileage, I pay for standard full coverage without driving restrictions.

Response 2 #25 by Original Poster Beaus67 Sheridan, Oregon » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:47 pm

CoupeBoy is exactly right; Oregon, like North Dakota only cares about recording vehicle mileage at a title transfer. I bought the car 7 years ago from a Ford dealership - they had me sign a “mileage unknown” disclosure statement. Since the stock odometer only goes to 99,999.9 then zeros out its hard to know which hundred thousand you’re in. As it happens, it had just turned 00,000.0 prior to changing out the gauges so nothing really changed except the new gauge now has the sixth position like new cars do. The mileage memory is supposed to be non-volatile but I suppose it’s as susceptible as any computer memory to crashes. I still have no clue what the true mileage is, 1,2,3,4 hundred thousand? Maybe more?
As far as State vehicle inspections, I live in a very rural area so there are no DEQ or other vehicle inspection stations. My son has the car at OSU in Corvallis (also rural) so it really hasn’t been an issue. If we lived in Portland then it might be different. I’ve had a lot of fun with his car so I’m thinking of doing a convertible (as a Shelby tribute) for my wife and I, if I do, I’m sure I’ll learn more about DMV regulations and requirements then I ever wanted to know.
Bill

[Bryan Knebworth]

I've noticed that myself Rich. Ideally, you'd hope the owner has a pic with the stock 85 and 140 MS unit, side-by-side, during the upgrade. At the very least, the owner might still have the stock 85 unit available for reference.

[KevinK]

An honest seller would not get upset. I always feel you need to judge the car on its own merits (condition). The rules or laws are there to protect the less informed. For the most part that covers the car during its valuable years 0 to 7 years old. After that you need some experts such as a mechanic or a knowledable car person. Never take the owner at his word 100% the speedo incident drops the owners credibility about 50% for the most part, you are on your own.

[xctasy]

An honest seller would not get upset. I always feel you need to judge the car on its own merits (condition). The rules or laws are there to protect the less informed. For the most part that covers the car during its valuable years 0 to 7 years old. After that you need some experts such as a mechanic or a knowledable car person. Never take the owner at his word 100% the speedo incident drops the owners credibility about 50% for the most part, you are on your own.

Agreed. Its not a witch hunt at 30+ years.

But past 7 years age, or even before, CARJAM or state, it always finds other stuff which then requires further checking.

ITZOLD, my Mustang should be a notchback but its a hatchback, coded as a P10 on the vin number as a Notch.

I've run a New Zealand CARJAM report on ITZOLD to secure it perported history.

"The vehicle has been re-registered — de-registered in the past and then registered again.
Odometer readings are inconsistent and jump backwards sometimes. Possible reasons could include: entry error at an inspection time or border check, or around the clock, or a wound-back odometer. Odometer readings are incorrect? You maybe able to fix it".

The original US Market www.getvin.com report I ran showed vin1FABP10B4CF109967 was an Original order Oct 28 1981, no concers, but no km history, it was exported to Japan but no reference to this.

Neither show up any problems, although it lookes like someone tried to convert the odometers km reading into milesduring one bi annual inspection.

I have a 1982 VIN 1FABP10B4CF109967 Mustang, but it is wrongly registered as a 1983 ex Japanese Domestic Market (JDM) car.



......

[gt pony]

Back when I was a tech. if we had to replace a mechanical speedo at the dealership we were required to attach a sticker on the drivers door jam noting the miles at the time of replacement and the date.

On my 86 I replaced the stock speedo with a 140 at 312 miles and set the new speedo to that mileage which was fairly easy to do at the time if you had the patience. I say this now because I didn't bother to put that sticker in the door jam and I just inquired at my old dealership if they still had any, no luck.

In my case I'm the original owner and you can tell that the vehicle has low miles just from simple observation. With that being said, it still bothers me that I forgot to do that. The speedo clicks over on the old cars at 99999.9 back to 0 so the title should indicate it has done that if it's had a few owners.

My suggestion would be to find someone who can look the car over and is familiar with these issues, it shouldn't be that difficult to determine within a reasonable amount of accuracy. Good luck.

[E2ZZGLX]

I agree with all the above, one thing if a seller feels "hurt" about some one asking how or if a speedo swap mileage is correct they may not even know unless they are the original owners and perform or had it done themselves. I have had or bought several cars/foxes over the years with 140 speedo swaps and even did it to my 82 when "near new" and of all those cars only one owner saved the factory speedo assy as most just tossed the factory assy including my self. If you think about it early speedometers non digital are not very accurate to begin with and can be off 5+/-mph either direction...so if the what's the difference being off "a little" If the car shows or presents itself like the stated mileage on the odometer I would say it's good to go. It's the ones that have the fresh repaint incorrect parts, modded or missing parts that would bother me in reflecting the mileage on the car, in those cases your most likely not buying the car for the mileage but more so what's been done. Granted there are some low mileage cars out there that were used and abused when they were new. Been there done that...I have more of a problem of missing or removing smog equipment on our cars also illegal to do being a federal emissions equipment and a lot more difficult and expensive to correct than a speedo error...bottom line use your best judgement and sellers integrity...isn't this fun!

[vintageracer]

Federal odometer mileage reporting guidelines only apply to a vehicle for this first 10 years of life. Our car's are 30+ years old so why would you care what the mileage is?

Our cars were NOT bought as collector cars when new. They were purchased for transportation just like most any other new car sold today. Sure some of our cars were babied and cherished HOWEVER those few cars were far and few between. How do you expect a seller who owns a car that has probably changed hands 2-10 times in the last 30 years to guaranty to the mileage on the car is original? As me how many miles are on the car and I'm going to tell you "Under a Million" as I know at that point it's a safe bet that I CAN guaranty you that any Foxbody Mustang does not have a "Million" millions miles on it. If "I" did not buy the car new and therefore know the complete 30+ year history of the car I sure as Hell would not guaranty that mileage on any low mileage car!

Our cars are Old Cars just like any other 30+ year old car. You should buy or sell based upon the looking at the car from the standpoint does the Price Match the Condition and NOT worry about the mileage on the car!

[Hemlock]

Lets face it, because these cars came with only a 99,999 mile speedo most sellers are being less then honest about the current mileage on their cars. I have seen tons of these cars advertised as 20 to 30 thousand mile cars and they look like 300,000+ mile cars. Because of this I take every mileage listing for a fox body with a heaping tablespoon full of salt, whether it has an aftermarket speedo or not!

Robert

[erratic50]

Mileage is irrelevant in Nebraska for foxes for a few reasons
- anything past 99999 is excess mechanical limits which only miles to the mechanical limit is relevant
- 80's cars are simply too old so the DMV flat out does not record or report uponmiles

this varies by state.

This being said, some 1985's made it out into circulation with a 140MPH speedometer. They are not a Motorsports or a police interceptor calibrated unit - just an honest 140 mph

Later in 85 the federal government outlawed them in all states for passenger cars but PI still got them afaik.

Believe it or not there are some "million mile" odometer 140 MPH speedometers that went into foxes at one time.

I have one of the non FMS "stock" 1985 140 MPH units in my 1986, but I only recently added it.

[Haystack]

The digital speedos in my cars only read to 199,999. Resetting to 100,000. Rolled a few over twice.

In my state no odometer check is recorded after 10 years.

[dagenham]

The titles in PA reads exceeds mechanical limits and do not even list mileage after a certain number of years.

[BMW Rider]

At the age of these cars, unless it is being billed a a low miles original, the condition of the car is more relevant than the mileage.

My 79's original odometer reads 96,000 Kms. It will be starting over at zero on the new speedo and is essentially an all new car now anyway.

[mrriggs]

The mileage is pretty much irrelevant, unless it is a ridiculously low mile "wrapper" car that someone is buying just because of the mileage. My neighbor just picked up a 1970 Corvette with 75k original miles. It was stored indoors in California it's whole life and he needs to completely rebuild it before he can drive it. All the hoses, gaskets and rubber bushings are shot from age. A well maintained driver would be a much better buy even if it had a lot more miles on it.

[sowaxeman]

Mileage is still recorded on vehicle titles in Indiana....its either listed as MILEAGE STATED IS ACTUAL, or NOT ACTUAL/EXCEEDS MECHANICAL LIMITS. All of mine are listed as ACTUAL and list the actual number of miles from the dated I titled them....14,xxx, 15,xxx, 10,599 and 2,576. They were purchased from the original owners, with original titles, with original miles listed as "0" from when new.

I agree with everything mentioned on this....very hard to be certain about mileage on 75% or more of the cars listed out there.

[FoxChassis]

some 1985's made it out into circulation with a 140MPH speedometer. They are not a Motorsports or a police interceptor calibrated unit - just an honest 140 mph

Later in 85 the federal government outlawed them in all states for passenger cars but PI still got them afaik.

Believe it or not there are some "million mile" odometer 140 MPH speedometers that went into foxes at one time.

I have one of the non FMS "stock" 1985 140 MPH units in my 1986, but I only recently added it.

The 1983-86 "Motorsport" speedometer does not have a "Ford (oval) Motorsport" logo on the face, like the 1979-82, 1987-89, or 1990-93 units did, so it is easy to mistake one of them for being a "factory" 140 mph speedometer, but they were not. There have been claims of 1985 or 1986 Capris and Mustangs having one of the Motorsport speedometers from the factory but what likely happened is the dealer installed it before or just after the owner took delivery. Summit Ford did it for Dominators. ascMcLaren did it for theirs. That would make it seem like the car came right off the delivery truck from Dearborn Assembly with a 140 speedometer, but it didn't.

The 85 mph speedometer limit for 'civilian' vehicles (Code of Federal Regulation, Title 49, Part 571, Section 127) was in effect from 9/1/1979 (1980 model year) through 3/24/1982 (mid 1982 model year). By 1985 it was perfectly legal for Ford to put 140 mph speedometers in 'civilian' Capris and Mustangs but they didn't do that until after the 1989 model year started. Emergency vehicles were exempt from the regulation.

The 'million mile' odometer came into effect due to New York State requirement for the 1993 model year. If the car was ordered through a NY DSO for use in that state, or through a DSO outside of NY for use in NY it had to have that speedometer with the 7-digit odometer (6 digits + 1 for tenths)

[erratic50]

Was mistaken on the date for the federal code for sure...

but would be interesting to prove or disprove the 140 mph factory speedo thing. I know someone that ordered their 85 and was there when it was unloaded and he claims his car had the 140 factory.

There are either a lot of other guys with similar claims who are also liars or some went out the door with 140's from the factory in 1985.

My theory has been they had a pile of 85 mph heads to get rid of before they could justify the cost of a full on switch so they were made then got the plug pulled on them and became a FMS part.

This being said I owned an 89 with a factory 140 and I don't know if any cars newer than 85 until the 89's that had one.

Only thing that was a bigger joke on most of the four eyed 5.0L Mustangs than the 85mph speedometer was the brakes! But brakes are for quitters, right?

[FoxChassis]

The 1983-86 Motorsport speedometer should have an "E4ZX" engineering number prefix on the lower right corner of the face (not visible when installed).

E4ZX = originally engineered 1984 (E4) Mustang (Z), Special Performance Components division (X)

And the box it came in would have M-17255-B on the label.

M = Ford Motorsport SVO

The speedometer itself originally had a sticker on the rear assembly indicating the production date of that unit. The sticker looked like an old-timey grocery store price tag from a sticker gun.

[homer302]

Also please consider the possibility that the seller is not attempting to defraud or mislead anyone at all. It is more likely they had no idea these cars left with an 85 MPH speedo and they themselves, were defrauded by who they bought the car from and are not happy to learn that news. I would say a large percentage of Fox owners were not born when their car was manufactured, let alone roaming dealership lots checking out all the details. But overall, actual mileage has little to do with the current condition of a 30 year old car unless it is being represented as some time capsule. Would you rather have a 150,000 "totally original" or a 250,000 mile car that has been restored or impeccably maintained over the years? The answer is It depends. Mileage is not the deciding factor. It shouldn't be at least.

[danco86]

Totally agree with many on this.
At this age, the mileage is relatively irrelevant.
Plus an odometer that rolls over at 100k doesn't help.
My 140 mph shows 76000 miles. It has not rolled over yet.
I also have the original speedo which reads 16000 kilometers at the point where it was changed out back in 1988ish.
So the car has 86000 driven miles on it.
But I rebuilt the entire car at 71000miles. So only the body panels, interior, and transmission have the full 86000 miles..

[BTD]

Value of a car based on its condition, low mileage is a typical indicator that its likely in good condition simply as it's had less time to accumulate wear. However low mileage is only One factor, not the only one. If it walks like a duck..

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