Brakes and tires for track/street use.

[Hammer Down]

So, I've signed up my car for track day and have some questions about brakes and tires. My braking system has turbo coupe rotors up front and stock brakes in rear(drum).It also has upgraded cobra MC and vacuum pump.. How are these going to fair on track day. I've never run on a track. I need new tires anyway so I was thinking the Nitto nt01 235/40/17,255/40/17 rear. My wheels are 17x8.5.

[erratic50]

Get really good brake pads!

[Hammer Down]

Thanks. I'll do that and maybe cross drilled rotors. If i like the track and I probably will I've thinking of upgrading the brakes. Has anyone installed the Nirthracecars 13" front 11" rear setup. ?

[wraithracing]

Thanks. I'll do that and maybe cross drilled rotors. If i like the track and I probably will I've thinking of upgrading the brakes. Has anyone installed the Nirthracecars 13" front 11" rear setup. ?

Cross drilled rotors are of Zero benefit on the street. Yes, they can look cool, but unless the rotor has the holes cast into them they are weaker due to the drilling of all the holes. Either way the rotors are more prone to cracking due to the holes. Keep in mind that race cars that use a cross drilled rotor generally only run them for one race and they are junked after that.

Slotted rotors are the better and stronger option if you want something other than standard rotors.

Quality iron rotors and quality high grade brake pads will give you the largest braking improvement all things being the same. Upgrading to larger rotors and better calipers will generally improve braking performance as long as the system is balanced and a quality system is installed, not just parts thrown at the vehicle.

Remember your M/C needs to be matched to your caliper sizes both front and rear. If changing to rear rotors you will have to either delete or remove the OEM proportioning valve and install an adjustable unit.

The North Race Cars setup is standard SN95 Cobra brakes when using the 13" front rotor size and the 11.65" rear rotors. I have that setup on my 79 Pace Car and the same setup will be installed in my 82 GT. I have run that setup on most of my Foxes since the late 90's and as long as you set it up correctly it greatly improves the braking over the stock Fox setup, especially the smaller 4 Eye setup. Good Luck!

[Hammer Down]

I'll leave the rotors on I have now then. They are slotted. Can you recommend a pad for track day? I was looking at hawk pads. They are big $ but I'm sure I'll be hitting 80-90 mph on the back straight..... Also, do you know what spindle I should use for the for the cobra brake setup? I have a UPR k member and a-arms? Thanks. One more ?; can these 'slotted' rotors be turned or are they throw away?

[stangman86gt]

don't forget brake fluid as well. something like ATE typ 200

Are you going to go with dedicated track pads and rotors?

[wraithracing]

If you are running the OEM 4 Eyed brakes, then getting a set of "Performance" pads that fit may be the issue. Hawk pads are just fine, but I am not sure they offer anything for the OEM 4 Eyed brakes. I know they do for the 87-93 V8 and of course, the SN95. Maximum Motorsports is an excellent vendor to talk to in regards to options, compounds, etc. http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Fr...Pads-C607.aspx

Slotted rotors can be turned, obviously as they are turned you lose some of the depth of the slots. Some shops balk at the idea, but I have had several sets turned without issues.

The Cobra brake setup needs the SN95 spindle. The question as to which spindle depends on your K member. The stock OEM K member requires the 94/95 spindle and aftermarket K members generally like the 96-04 spindles.

I will just warn you that I have seen many people have issues with the UPR K members and control arms when used in autocrossing, road racing, time trials, etc. I am not a fan of their quality or designs myself. I would be take extra care to make sure everything is tight and well maintained as a minimum. Although I personally would swap the K member and arms for a Maximum Motorsports combo http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...1995-P206.aspx or even go back to the OEM K member and arms for the additional strength. Just my .02 worth, your mileage may vary!

As mentioned above a top quality brake fluid is a must as well as a complete flush and bleed of your brake system to remove all air and any moisture. Good Luck!

[Hammer Down]

Thanks for all the great info! I'm going to run hawk hps pads on the slotted rotors I currently have and reshoe the rears. What is the best sequence to bleed the brakes. I have dot4 in it currently but it is probably 3-4 years old. Also,! Should I run a different engine oil as well? Im running 10-30 Valvoline VR1 now. Maybe a straight 40w? I have a solid roller 347 naturally aspirated.

[wraithracing]

Brake bleeding sequence is generally Passenger rear, Driver rear, Passenger front, Driver font. Then I repeat to make sure I have gotten all the air out of the system.

New brake fluid is always a good idea. 3-4 years old is not bad, but new is better.

I am not sure that straight 40w oil is the way to go, unless your outside temps and overall engine temps dictate that. Nothing wrong with 10-30 as long as it is new, clean, and completely filled.

[Patrick Olsen]

So, I've signed up my car for track day and have some questions about brakes and tires. My braking system has turbo coupe rotors up front and stock brakes in rear(drum).It also has upgraded cobra MC and vacuum pump.. How are these going to fair on track day.

So what front calipers do you have, and what size are those front rotors? As wraithracing said, finding performance pads for the older calipers can be harder, so it would help to know what exactly you're running.

Keep in mind that you set your own pace on track, so just don't over-drive your equipment and the brakes will be fine. As already pointed out, good quality, fresh brake fluid is key, and good pads that can handle higher temps will raise the threshold of how hard you can push before you get to the point of over-driving your equipment.

I've never run on a track. I need new tires anyway so I was thinking the Nitto nt01 235/40/17,255/40/17 rear. My wheels are 17x8.5.

I would go 255/40s all around. The car is going to want to understeer like a pig, and putting narrower tires up front will just make that worse. A "square" setup will help with handling, and will also allow you to rotate tires to balance out the wear.

I'll leave the rotors on I have now then. They are slotted. Can you recommend a pad for track day? I was looking at hawk pads. They are big $ but I'm sure I'll be hitting 80-90 mph on the back straight...

Where are you going to be running? I've run Hawk pads on track for years, and have generally been happy with them. My experience with the Hawk HPS (on the street) was less than satisfactory; I wouldn't want to run those on track. The HPS 5.0 is supposed to be a good improvement, but I would be more inclined to go with the Street/Race compound. You could also look at Carbotech's 1521 or AX6 compounds.

Should I run a different engine oil as well? Im running 10-30 Valvoline VR1 now. Maybe a straight 40w? I have a solid roller 347 naturally aspirated.

I don't see any reason to run a straight 40W. If you wanted a 40W, why not do 10W-40 or 5W-40?

I will just warn you that I have seen many people have issues with the UPR K members and control arms when used in autocrossing, road racing, time trials, etc. I am not a fan of their quality or designs myself.

Can you provide some examples? Over the years I've seen plenty of comments about how inadequate various non-MM K-members are, but I've yet to actually see a thread about all of these K-member failures that have apparently been happening. I personally ran an "inferior" D&D Motorsports K-member on my '89 for a while - a GT convertible (the heaviest of the Fox Mustangs), with front end weight made even worse by the addition of an intercooled Procharger setup. It did a number of auto-x events on street tires, never had an issue. I have no doubt that the MM K-member is stronger, but I don't think Hammer Down has any reason to worry about his UPR K-member on street tires.

New brake fluid is always a good idea. 3-4 years old is not bad, but new is better.

I would say 3-4 years old is quite bad, and is terrible for someone going to a road course.

[Jerry peachuer]

Great post Great Info

[Hammer Down]

I have the 11" rotors, not the stock 85 setup. I still have drums in the back. I ordered the hps hawk pads to run on the track. Should I run a more race oriented pad for the track. I was waffling between the hawk hps and the hawk hp plus. It will be my first time on a track so I doubt I'll be able to fry brakes and tires yet, but hey, the car has 550 hp so I'm sure I'll see 90-100 mph on the track. And I bought some nitto nt01's but in a staggered setup. 255/40/17rear,235/40/17 front. I was thinking of going non staggered for wear issue and tire rotation but I was worried about spinning the rears too much. I really need to learn how to drive it, they provide instructors to help with the lines etc,

[Patrick Olsen]

Where are you going to be running the car?

HP+ is still a street pad, just a more aggressive street pad that will better stand up to the heat. But if you're planning to run these all the time, be advised that HP+s are very dusty.

[Hammer Down]

Waterford hills. 1-1/2 mile road track.

[Hammer Down]

If swapping to sn95 cobra 13" brakes and the corresponding rear discs, will the 93 cobra master cylinder and booster work? That's what I have now.

[wraithracing]

If swapping to sn95 cobra 13" brakes and the corresponding rear discs, will the 93 cobra master cylinder and booster work? That's what I have now.

Yes, it will work. That is what I have on my 79 PC. I personally don't really care for the "feel" of the brakes. The pedal is hard with very little travel compared to the stock Fox setup. I will at some point swap the M/C out for a 94/95 Cobra 15/16" bore to improve the pedal travel and the "feel" of the brakes.

The 93 Cobra booster is not worth the headache to install on the early Four Eyes IMHO for what if any benefit you notice. I had to do less pounding and beating on my old 86 that I did the same install on, but my 79 was a major PITA. Good Luck!

[Hammer Down]

Thanks. That's good news. Are the shock towers different from 79-86? Why was it a pain?

[wraithracing]

The shock towers for the 90-93 are definitely different than the 79-89, this was due to Ford altering the front suspension geometry. The early 79-82 cars seem to either have a different shape or angle to the shock towers that makes getting clearance for the 93 Cobra booster more of a PITA. The 83-86 cars appear to be similar to the 87-89 cars, but again just due to the quality tolerances, every vehicle can be a bit different.

Some are able to slot one or two of the mounting holes on the firewall and the booster slips in. Others have had to do that and cut one of the booster bolts shorter to gain some extra clearance. Still others have had to do some custom reforming of the shock tower with a hammer. Last some such as myself on my 79 had to use a BFH and ultimately an angle grinder, welder, and a lot of adult beverages.

The install in my 86 wasn't too bad with just some slotting and a BFH to the shock tower. I just don't have any plans to do another one anytime soon! I will give the stock Fox booster a try first and if I have issues, then I will consider the 93 Cobra booster or I will just go Hydro boost like on my 82 GT!

[Hammer Down]

What's hydroboost? And what are the issues with not running the sn95 booster compared to the 93 cobra.? ..a harder pedal? I have a mushy pedal now and I don't like it. What about running manual brakes and then I can forget the booster and vacuum pump and all the lines.

[wraithracing]

Hydroboost was used on the 96-04 V8 Mustangs due to the clearance issues with the Mod motor. Hydroboost uses the PS pump rather than vacuum for the boost assist. I am swapping to that in my 82 GT due to a 5.4 DOHC swap.

I have no experience with the SN95 booster over the 93 Cobra or Fox boosters so I can't comment fully. Some say the SN95 booster can help, while others don't notice much difference.

The harder pedal that I spoke of above is due to the M/C bore size being larger than is necessary. The larger bore moves more fluid and therefore doesn't need much travel to activate the calipers properly. Moving to a smaller bore (94/95 Cobra) 15/16" will move less fluid and therefore require a longer pedal travel to fully activate the calipers and hence a "better feel" to me. The boost assist is not an issue for me it is all the pedal travel. I have plenty of boost assist.

As for your mushy pedal, that can be for many reasons, old brake fluid, air in the brake lines, poor rubber brake lines, etc. Without knowing that everything in the brake system is in top notch shape I wouldn't compare your current situation to a well designed, properly installed, and properly bleed setup.

Manual brakes are an option, but I am not a fan of them on the street. Yes, they clean up the engine compartment and have the benefit of not having to deal with vacuum issues, but I don't feel that you can get the same braking performance in most situations that you encounter on the streets. Some guys go manual brakes when road racing or autocrossing and that is fine as it does simplify the install and does drop a bit of weight off the engine, but that is more of a single purpose vehicle.

If vacuum is a major issue for your setup you might seriously consider going to a hydroboost setup. The install is a bit more complicated, but there are plenty of options out there and it can really improve your braking performance especially in those daily driver situations where you need great stopping power, but don't want to have to stand on the pedal to bring the car to a stop.

[Hammer Down]

Where are you going to be running the car?

HP+ is still a street pad, just a more aggressive street pad that will better stand up to the heat. But if you're planning to run these all the time, be advised that HP+s are very dusty.

You ain't kidding about the dust.

[Hammer Down]

Got me some new goodies today. Starting to acquire the parts for my brake upgrade.

[erratic50]

I initially figured you were hitting the drag strip!

Yea - pads are still great advice

for repeat stopping multi piston calipers and large brakes that burn off heat well are key.

2004 Cobra front brakes are a huge benefit and will work with a 1994-1995 spindle with a little massaging.
A quality disc is a must. I run Baer drilled and slotted but 99GT variety
Rear disc is a must. 95GT vented disc setup with Baer rotors
Adjustable proportioning is a must
braided hoses help firm things up
dont forget shocks and struts

I love the feel I achieved with my MarkVII 1" bore master cyl and stock 86 booster. Just needed one off the shelf adapter to make it fit.

15/16" will give just that much more pedal actuation which does help you control brake force application.

[Hammer Down]

I will probably buy the Northracecars front and rear kit. I like that it's all new parts and a complete kit.

[erratic50]

Specs of the parts is what matters.