Close



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34
  1. #1

    Default Looking for a good mechanic.

    Heya fellas,

    I've spent a few months and a pile of money trying to get my car together. I've made headway and things look good for a few days and then the car totally spazzes out on me and I'm back to square one. I've chased grounds and wiring, replaced parts, and sprinkled chicken blood on the ECU during a thunderstorm to appease the gremlins and all to no avail. So I'm throwing in the towel. Does anyone know of a mechanic in the state of Washington (preferably Seattle area) that either specializes in foxes or really knows his stuff? I'm about ready to build a fire under this mustang if I don't get some help. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Default

    A little more info, like year, engine, a real description of what is going on would help, there is an almost unending well of knowledge here and almost all would be glad to help you keep that fox on the road

  3. #3

    Default

    Righty oh good Sir,

    The problem is the idle won't stay consistent. I've set it, reset it, and set it again. It's left me stranded over and over again. It'll run like a dream for a few days and then out of nowhere the RPM's just fall off and it quits. It'll just cut out and then come back. It's almost like the plugs all got disconnected at once. I'll pull over and start it right back up and drive for another few miles. Then randomly the idle drops from 850 or so to 250 and will not come back up. I ramble..

    The car is a 1986 Mustang GT. I bought it as a roller and a long block with boxes on boxes of parts. I converted it to Mass Air and swapped out the ECU with an A9L. I dropped the gas tank and cleaned it out thoroughly replacing the pump with a 155 from LMR. New filter and plumbing up to the rail.

    The engine's compression is 10:1. The mods are 24lb injectors with the 70mm mass air being matched ( I know I didn't buy this it came with the pile ), E303 cam, Edlebrock RPM heads with motorsport rollers, Edlebrock RPM intake, 70mm LMR throttle body with the EGR delete, and cold air going through the fender. New coil, MSD distributor, and wires.
    I spent six weeks putting the thing together and sent it to the tuner. The tuner charged me an even grand and it took him about four weeks. He couldn't get the idle to be consistent even forcing it via the ECU. I took the car back and changed all the sensors ( 02's, TPS, IAC, Coolant temp, and air charge temp ). The only sensor remaining untouched is the MAP. I've checked for vacuum leaks several times. I've chased down every ground, scuffed metal up, tightened, and checked resistances. I've checked the MAF sensor's output voltages and it seems it's doing what it's supposed to. I've reset the base idle a bajillion times ( I know I made that number up : ) set to .89 volts, hooked the battery up and plugged the IAC back up. I've got a gauge showing fuel pressure and it's a steady 39 psi or close in the throttle. I've replaced the distributor with a stocker and still no dice. I run 92 octane from good stations.

    A funny thing.. I've run the crank by hand to top dead center with the number one plug out using a pick and flashlight to feel the cylinder to be sure. I look at the timing mark and it's on "0". I put the plugs back in, pull the spout, and slap a timing light on it and nothing.. no mark anywhere. I've checked this several times with several different lights. I know, just absolutely sure, that top dead center is right on and I've got the firing order down right. I end up timing it until I hear pinging and running it back a bit.. driving around the block and repeating until it feels right.. I know it’s not the way but still.. I don't get it.

    I've since changed the name of the car from "Red" to "Devil".
    If you can think of something, anything, I'm dying to hear it. I'm at my whit’s end. I've scoured the web and my google fu is exhausted. I've checked service manuals and chased every wire that I can find that might have an impact of some kind but I can't find a clue.

  4. #4
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Not everyone is a "diode fan" (elkectronic guru), so excuse me please if you think I'm trying to turn you into a NASA ground Support Rocket Scientist...


    There are three levels of checks, High level is the chip.

    Low level is Digital code reader, which is needed for quick on the fly fault code checks because the 83 to 86 MCU/EFI Ford 2.3/3.8/5.0 Mustangs have no traditional CEL (Check Engine Light) or MIL (Mailfunction Indicator Lamp).

    Intermediate level is a check done in the olden days using a Thexton 60 pin breakout box. (see pictures below, its a 6 x 10 matrix prong system, with an overlay for the various codes)


    One or two you can do. And they won't blow up your computer or put you into the poorhouse...


    Three questions.

    Q1 Can you confirm that the car in Vancover had a Moates J3 chip applied. The thingy that stops you bolting up the EECIV ECM via the normal attachment. Should be on youtr invoice maybee.

    If so, correcting the idle is very simple at the top level.. You ask your mechanic to check the chip tune.



    Q2. Does it have any Dealer Fault Codes present. If you cant answer that, then You have a quick low level check to do with a Equus 3145 reader and 3149 6 foot cable.



    Your basic problems are easily found with a pre OBDII EECIV through a Code Reader Innova or Equus #3145 Code Reader with #3149 6FT CABLE.

    That gives you a Dealer Trouble Code.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOgURm7iXI

    How to run a $26 Innova Digital EEC-IV OBD1 Scan tool on my '86 Mustang GT 5.0. Running through different
    KOEO
    and KEOR test's

    to pull codes.
    The third mode, aside from KOEO and KEOR test's, is a recording mode when running via a six foot cable that works the KAM (Keep Alive memory). I'd suggest that thats what you should do ASAP. .


    This guy got 81 -0 Air Diverter (Air pump fault)

    and then 34 C (EGR fault) On KEOR test,

    it gives engine cylinders

    21 R (Coolant temperature sensor reading low,

    41 R (HEGO O2 sensor lean) and

    33 R (EGR valve not operating)

    Then another KEOR test showed

    94 R(Air Diverter Solinoid fault)


    44 R(Thermactor EGR fault)


    33 R (EGR valve not operating)

    Those are typical, and your engine might have those parts locked out via the special chip.


    Every EECIV if it doesn't have a J3 real time port access conversion should have one of these on hand.

    If you car dies, it'll qive you a flag code for sure, and that gives you a clue of what sensors to check.


    Q3. Ask around for a local mechanic who has a breakout box reader. This is the sure way to have it sorted is via breakout box. It aceses the sensor data with the car operational. Its a 2nd order, higher level check and it jumpers the 60 pin plug and logs the fault codes and voltage ranges. It'll find faults with the wriing and sometimes the calibration.



    I'm on the Explorer Forum as LogEFI, and discovered the many possiable "issues" with EECIV when dealing with the Aussie 88-91 CFi 2-bbl 3.2 and 3.9 Fords, as awkward as any.


    Read this

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ulty-EEC-Relay

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...air-conversion

    And additionally read all the three pages linked to this
    Quote Originally Posted by 84StangSVT View Post
    That would be correct. Remove the yellow wire and fix the spliced area so it does not ground and then remove the red wires and connect them together.
    Mass production throws 20000 parts together to quickly create an 86 Mustang. Fords build process is interlinked with many responses to problems that come from cars in the field. The wiring process is new everyday...normally everything will be the same, but sometimes, Ford changes any number of wrining related parts without notice. Internally, people talk to each other, and wiring looms and parts will change, and so a Tuesday Mustang may not be the same as Mondays.

    Your wriing earth, will be grounding out 'somehow" and resulting in an "out of range" voltage to one of the sensors. In some instances, it can be simple degradation of a TPS sweep, but normally, its an out of range voltage which leaves the idle tracking without data, caused by some other issue.


    The realabity of the Ford EECIV system is very good


    The way to fix it is to track and trace with a old 60 pin ECM checking data logger, and it will show up the fault when it happens.


    Each pin has a light code, andits set up in a 6 by 10 matrix so the faults are itemised in real time.

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...stang-computer






    You can home make a 60 pin breakout box easy. Scorpio and 86 Stangs have similar pinouts.




    http://www.aphenos.net/scorpio/misc/tools/breakout.htm

  5. #5
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Oh yeah,

    Quote Originally Posted by rock4451 View Post
    As anticlimactic as it seems, my last solution was the final one. Something with the chip was ever so misaligned and I think grounding/touching the computer's metal case. Ground out the metal case some more around the chip opening, cleaned all terminals, no problems driving to the moon and back (and track) for going on 3 years now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    And VSS. My experience with the vehicle speed sensor is that it can drop off giving a signal. If your system is transferred over from an 88-93 A9L, it had to be polling from the right source voltage...they have a funny self energising voltage that sometimes stops producing a signal.

  6. #6

    Default

    One thing that caught my eye in the info you gave us is the MAP sensor. On a Ford vehicle of this vintage that's been converted over to MAF you shouldn't have a MAP sensor, instead you need just the opposite, a BARO sensor. Essentially, no vacuum line attached to it and open to atmosphere.

    I would start by changing that first, then do an adaptive strategy reset. Let us know.

  7. #7
    FEP Super Member sowaxeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Greenwood, IN
    Posts
    3,506

    Default

    Isn't Jimmy from the Fox Shoppe up near Seattle?
    Jason Smith
    MCA #65481

    '82 Capri RS Resto-Mod
    '88 #400 Saleen Coupe "Mean Machine" Legal Guardian
    '93 LX Yellow/Black Summer Feature - 2,800 Mile Original Survivor (Foxtoberfest 2019 Best Original 87-93)
    '05 S-281 Mineral Grey

  8. #8

    Default

    I'll certainly try these things. The MAP was long ago pulled from the vacuum. I was told it would act as a BARO. Is this correct?

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberu View Post
    I'll certainly try these things. The MAP was long ago pulled from the vacuum. I was told it would act as a BARO. Is this correct?
    That is correct.

  10. #10
    FEP Member 86capri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    palmyra, new jersey
    Posts
    141

    Default

    I had a similar issue with my idle dropping and then the car would die. My car is an 86 capri 5.0l that was converted to mass air and uses a c&l mass air meter with a calibration tube. It turns out that I had the wrong calibration tube for my size injectors. Once I installed the proper size tube things seemed to have smoothed out so far. Could be worth a shot.

    Brad

  11. #11
    FEP Senior Member Tigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Portland Oregon
    Posts
    718

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sowaxeman View Post
    Isn't Jimmy from the Fox Shoppe up near Seattle?
    I believe he is in Portland still. I bought my cargo panels from him years ago when he had his Christmas tree farm. Nice guy.

    I've been to the Bellevue Mustang show many times and I see lots of cars that have had work done from Brads Custom Auto. You might try them?
    Last edited by Tigger; 05-16-2017 at 12:55 AM.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  12. #12

    Default

    Id personally lose the msd dist, dont see any need for it, doesnt improve anything and adds a variable. Same goes with the wires. Get stock replacement wires, or at least motorcraft brand so you can rule these out. Actually funny enough, the only ignition components ive seen die were an msd coil and msd ignition module.

    What is the tune for? You have a better intake and 70mm throttle body. Seems close enough to stock to idle to me? I assume stock heads and cam? If so, 24#ers really arent needed either. If you could swap back to 19# injectors, you can also rule out the tune/tuner.

    First step is still codes. Some j3 port chips will get fried if you try to run codes, another reason imho to forget about it if possible...

    To run codes, get a paper clip. Then an analog volt meter, or test light, or a light bulb, or a 12v buzzer or a $28 code reader to do the exact same thing as a paper clip and any other combination of those things i listed.

    Also sounds like it could be related to the timing light flashes. Sounds almost like it could be 180º out or maybe a tooth or two off? Try the #5 cylinder wire on the timing light.

    The best place to start is to remove variables any way possible. We have a bunch of aftermarket parts that could be varying quality (not poking fun, but oem always trumps aftermarket on reliability and driveability and compatibility) and get a baseline from there.

    Not trying to was your money, i hate spending money on the same thing twice.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  13. #13

    Default

    @ Haystack
    I'll probably put the stock distributor back on. The wires are ford racing stuff. I took it in to get tuned because it ran like a top fuel car. I blacksmith and out of paranoia I installed a carbon monoxide alarm in my garage. I could literally fire the car up for a minute with the windows and doors open and it would go off. It wouldn't take any more throttle than half without coughing and back firing through the intake. It had to be done. I just got home but I'm about to try the number 5 wire and see if that helps. The fuel rails forced me to jimmy the dizzy around a bit further than I'd like so that I could adjust the timing. It's tight quarters up there . As far as money.. I've spent way more than my budget trying to get this gremlin. I'll keep on but I'm close to just calling it and dropping it off to a professional.
    Last edited by Oberu; 05-16-2017 at 08:26 PM.

  14. #14

    Default

    Ford racing wires have semi recently changed to Chinese manufactures, but supposedly they usually work fine, so i wouldnt worry about that.

    Do you know the cam heads and other internals to be stock?
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  15. #15

    Default

    The injectors fire sequentially. If the number one post doesnt correspond to the correct cylinder, the firing order of the injectors will be wrong. It will screw with the computer until it gives up trying to compensate fuel trims, and will go into limp mode after.

    The #1 absolutely has to be on the correct post in the dizzy. It locates the position for the computer to fire the injectors.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  16. #16

    Default

    So I spent this afternoon tinkering on the car. I pulled the MSD and reinstalled the stocker. I couldn't get the car to start. I started from scratch and ran through everything again.. finding TDC. I managed to get the timing to register but I had to go back to the MSD. I reset the idle for the ump-teenth time and took it out for a spin. It runs great! Seat of your pants, white knuckled, heart racing.. and then fell on it's face and i had to limp it to the curb. I fired it up after waiting a few minutes and continued. It idles pretty well.. in the range of 800-1000 but fluctuating some. It didn't facepalm again for the last leg of the test drive. I'm going to take it on the drive to work tomorrow (( 26 miles )) and see how it fares.

  17. #17

    Default

    Pull codes, see what pops up. Sorta sounds like a tfi module issue. When they heat up, they quit working then cool down and work again. This could be tfi, or pip, or a bunch of other stuff.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  18. #18
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    I'd be pulling the codes while your driving, using a 35 dollar code reader and a 6 foot cable. You can go about randomly swapping bits...but its futile as you have to see when the fault pops up. The EECIV has keep alive memory and very limited real time data logging. But its essentially simple.


    Its gonna be a voltage out of range issue, and you'll get some good advice as to where you need to head from the codes.

  19. #19

    Default

    So I received my code reader in the mail today. I tried the scanner at my local O'Reilly but it wouldn't read anything. It just kept telling me to make sure the key was in the on position. I verified that the harness ground was connected. I left my car at work as that's as far as I got trying to leave. I'm noticing this problem only happens when it's warm outside. I'm going to take the stock distributor with me and swap it out and try to read the codes today. Wish me luck.

  20. #20

    Default

    Codes only require a jumper. The code reader is nothing more then a box thst flashes a light or beeps at you. Every test that can be performed can be done with a paper clip and a test light or analog meter.

    https://youtu.be/z0ehA8cFTkc
    https://youtu.be/9QSiS6wf7oU

    Here i am running the test for a guy on another forum who couldn't figure it out.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  21. #21

    Default

    So I tried reading the codes and had the same issue. It's not recognizing it's plugged in. My friend tells me that's because it's an A9L out of a 93' and the wiring harnesses have different setups. I put the stock distributor back in and it's just the same. To me this pretty much factors out the hall, pip, and such. There's no fuel in the oil. The regulator is new and functional. Fuel pressure is a steady 38.I replaced the fuel filter thinking maybe there was something in there actually clogging the line but after replacing it and blowing through the old.. not it. Runs fine until it squelches and the idle falls. It'll do this over and over until it dies. Under throttle or idling it's the same and totally unresponsive to throttle until it clears up. So here is sit about fifteen miles from home stuck.

  22. #22

    Default

    My apologies for having this thread turn into a technical thing. This was not my intention and if you wish to move it to the appropriate folder please do so. Thank you all for all the advice!

  23. #23
    FEP Senior Member danco86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    731

    Default

    I have an A9l in my '86GT and it displays codes just fine.
    I've said it before, I think your issue is in your tune. If it isn't, then your tuner should have never went ahead with tuning until they found the issue.
    I had all those issues pre- tune. Checked a billion things, reset and checked another billion.
    I think you said you were from Everett?
    If so, I strongly encourage you to call the guy I used in Surrey BC. Only a 2 hour drive, and you'll save 25% with the exchange rate.
    This shop is mustang through and through. Knows foxes like no other. He will not tune until your car passes his pre dyno inspection.
    Long waitlist to get in tho. That should speak volumes. I have never had a better experience with anyone.
    Worth at least a phone call.

    JMS Motorsports
    604-597-8886
    Ask for Parm
    Last edited by danco86; 06-08-2017 at 03:13 AM.
    Dan

    http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ng-GT-restomod


    1986 Mustang GT Cobra
    Lotsa stuff, lotsa work. Check my thread above.

    Daily drivers
    2002 F-350 7.3 Powerstroke crew 4X4
    2012 F-150 Ecoboost Screw FX4

  24. #24
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dunedin 9011, New Zealand, South Pacific
    Posts
    3,961

    Default

    Think nothing of it....

    The pinouts , vac lines, anything that conducts electrickery or air, gas or electromagentic Tom fluxery on any Ford are a thing of the production lines convience, not yours. Connectors with specfic codes can be wired totally different. Ford builds cars quickly, it does whats best for production, and each year has its own shizen.


    Even though there are good EVTM guides (exist for year and type), they aren't even close to perfect.


    They changed with year and transmission. The box code for your chip has to match the wiring, or it won't run properly. The uploaded chip program can be put into any basic ECM, but there were Pin 34 changes and auto to 5 speed A9L/A9P changes the way power is delivered to Pin 30 and 46. Pin 40 is often used to check common ground issues. Get it wrong, and you can fry stuff, although there are ways to sift through.

    A jumper wire normally restablishes the right ground depending on what kind of year and trans your 86 wiring was.

    I absolutely know that one of the pinout to ECM wirining mix ups is causing the reading problem, and its likely that the run off under heat is related to a floating grounding out of another sensor.

    That would be found on a Breakout box trace, but a good EVTM might help you match the 86 harness with the MAF mod to a 93 ECM, but its best if the box codes are the same.

    http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-...l-3-wires.html
    http://forums.corral.net/forums/eec-...k-bad-eec.html

  25. #25

    Default

    Every time ive been unable to pull codes, the eec ground was bad. Should have a low resistance to ground on pins 20 40 and 60 reguardless of year or wiring.

    My buddy's car died, we pulled the computer out and started tracing out pins. Turns out he had a high resistance to ground on the body ground by the negative cable. When checking tps after, it was reading 12v's.

    Need to figure out why you can't get codes, and go from there.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •