Aluminum heads

[86AscMclaren]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-Small-Bl...3D262951168697

Has anyone heard anything good or bad about these heads, anyone here run them? I've read about the ones clewwho whatever sells on ebay, these may be like those i suppose. Just hoping anyone here had any input.

[Trailer Trash Racer]

I've never used them but I would just be hesitant to. Bit the bullet on AFR's instead lol

[brianj]

You're looking at $1320.00 for a pair. TW170's are pretty close to that price, and AFR 165's are not a lot more than the TW's. Don't take the chance, just save up a bit more and buy a known, proven head.

[bwguardian]

You're looking at $1320.00 for a pair. TW170's are pretty close to that price, and AFR 165's are not a lot more than the TW's. Don't take the chance, just save up a bit more and buy a known, proven head.

Unless I'm missing something, the add states pair...but read the reviews...

[boogiestang]

It is my costly experience of buying used heads that allows me to say save up and get a new set of quality heads. Trust me you will come out cheaper in the long road plus they are something that is proven and easy to deal with. Saving for a new set of afr heads as we speak

[86AscMclaren]

I must be missing something, i dont see any reviews, unless you're talking about his ebay feedback.

Im also having a hell of a time finding used heads for cheaper then those, thats part of the problem. All I really want is some GT40 heads, they'll do what I want, but they seem to have shot up in price, either they're all around $600+ shipped from ebay, are the P heads, or locally they want $300ish bucks, plus they'd need to be rebuilt. Las Vegas seems to have run out of 96 - early 97 explorers in the salvage yards. But, like you guys said, I dont really want to buy cheap garbage heads, just wondering if anyone here had used em is all. Im certainly not going to be a guinea pig =)

[brianj]

Just noticed, yep, that's for a pair. Seems far too cheap to be good! On the other hand, why don't you want "P" heads? Mine have been good with a set of cheapo BBK headers.

[86AscMclaren]

Just noticed, yep, that's for a pair. Seems far too cheap to be good! On the other hand, why don't you want "P" heads? Mine have been good with a set of cheapo BBK headers.

Mostly for ease of use, didnt want to have to spend money on new headers as well. You using just the BBK shorty headers listed on the interwebs? Or are they a special type, they seem to run around $200 right?

[mmb617]

At $660 per pair shipped they are about 1/3 the price of a set of AFR's. They most certainly are not going to be close to equal to the AFR's in performance, that's a given. However, depending on what you want out of them they could be suitable.

Here's my real world experience with knock off Chinese heads. Ten years ago when I was putting my first motor together I bought a set of ProComp heads solely because they were less than half the price of name brand heads. I ran those heads on two different motors during 7 years of bracket racing making over 600 passes. While I am certain I gave up a lot of horsepower with those heads as opposed to some "good heads", they never caused me any mechanical problems. Everybody told me if I just switched heads I'd drop a 1/2 second off my ET, and they were probably right, but in bracket racing I didn't have to be the fastest car to win so I just kept running them. I'm not racing anymore but those heads are still on the car and still not causing any mechanical problems.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is depending on what you want, and what you can afford, they may or may not work for you. If you want the most power you can get, then no, they are not for you. If you just want something that will work and be better than your stock heads, and especially if your budget is tight, then they might just fill the bill.

If I'd have had unlimited funds I would have bought better heads in a heartbeat, but when you have to decide what mods are worth your hard earned money sometimes you are better off saving on one part so you can spend more on another which in my case was suspension. When funds are limited it's all about allocating them properly.

[brianj]

El Cheapo BBK unequal length shorty headers, Autozone heat shields, and good to go. Changing the plugs does require either a customized socket, or pulling the header on one side. It takes me about a half an hour, no big deal.I've been quite happy with mine, the only reason I'm looking at aluminum heads is to drop temps a little and for a bit of a compression drop.

[86AscMclaren]

At $660 per pair shipped they are about 1/3 the price of a set of AFR's. They most certainly are not going to be close to equal to the AFR's in performance, that's a given. However, depending on what you want out of them they could be suitable.

Here's my real world experience with knock off Chinese heads. Ten years ago when I was putting my first motor together I bought a set of ProComp heads solely because they were less than half the price of name brand heads. I ran those heads on two different motors during 7 years of bracket racing making over 600 passes. While I am certain I gave up a lot of horsepower with those heads as opposed to some "good heads", they never caused me any mechanical problems. Everybody told me if I just switched heads I'd drop a 1/2 second off my ET, and they were probably right, but in bracket racing I didn't have to be the fastest car to win so I just kept running them. I'm not racing anymore but those heads are still on the car and still not causing any mechanical problems.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is depending on what you want, and what you can afford, they may or may not work for you. If you want the most power you can get, then no, they are not for you. If you just want something that will work and be better than your stock heads, and especially if your budget is tight, then they might just fill the bill.

If I'd have had unlimited funds I would have bought better heads in a heartbeat, but when you have to decide what mods are worth your hard earned money sometimes you are better off saving on one part so you can spend more on another which in my case was suspension. When funds are limited it's all about allocating them properly.

You kind of hit the nail on the head as to what im looking for, really I just want better then stock, the car is an ASCMclaren capri coupe, It'll never go to the track, i just want to putter around town a bit faster then what I do now. This whole project started out with pulling the engine to replace all the gaskets, its low mileage but sat for so long it leaks everywhere. Then i figured while its out, just put new heads and intake. Well, as most people know, cant really do that on an 86 without potential PTV issues. Anywho, this has turned out to be more expensive then I originally intended (told the wife) so anything i can do to cut costs is a good thing. The real issue is that because of its uniqueness, I wont be replacing the stock wheels, so to much power and I wont go anywhere anyway. Brianj gives me something to think about, the P heads are everywhere in the junkyards here in Vegas, and for the cost of the heads, and headers, id still be under what those aluminum ones would be. Thanks for all your input guys, i appreciate it

[Haystack]

The trick flow heads do not require any kind of valve reliefs, being as the valve isnt in the stock location. They should clear fine. The gt40 heads might not have enough room(along with pretty much every other aftermarket head). I know a few guys that say they cleared fine, and a few who ground in releifs.

[erratic50]

On an 86 engine a twisted wedge head is a clear choice.

the heads you sent the link for have a 2.02 valve which will conflict with all years fox body factory valve relief pistons and most aftermarket pistons for a 302.

I would put on trick flows and never look back.

Buying used heads can be risky- buying used heads and not properly inspecting them or having them fully inspected and cleaned and serviced is asking for trouble.

ive heard from multiple sources over the years that valve guides and seals on twisted wedge heads are crap. In many ways redone heads with quality parts are better in the end.

that said there are a lot of twisted wedge heads out there for sale. Pay attention to chamber size as that determines compression.

[xctasy]

Import heads are a false economy at the moment. I'm not saying don't buy em.

The issue is cylinder head gasket retention because the ignots won't be as well heat treated, so they get annealed over time.

Down here, our 200 and 250 Ford I6's got an aluminum Honda cast cylinder hed, the onr Mike1157 uses in the Gila Monster. Honda's casting process for them is just like the Maryland US plants quality...excellent. When Ford Australia started casting them, the heads annealed and suffred poristy, and there focus was on better Boron treted cylinder head bolts that didn't push into the head castings as much. The Aussies spent a lot of time perfecting stuff the US and Japan does very well...but you have to sped cubic dollars on aluminum castings..they have to be non porus, heat treated, and cope with the stock iron headgaskets and torque settings and bolts. Our alloy head engines got steel locating rings in two spots through the block to the head, requiring a little broach work to get it. Our engines used Cleveland head bolts. None of this kind of stuff is used on the US aluminum Ford GT40 X or other semi production heads, so you do have to take care centering stuff and doing good prep woirk.



There is additionally the potential dubious nature of the quality of the valve spring, seat and valve material quality. The US industry outsources to China on peformance verses quality issues, and not all Quality vs Price tradoffs are wrong...you know, the USA shares the dollar pie outsourcing. How much have Korea and Japan and Tiwan, even Australia been helped by outsourcing? Heaps!. So saving money isn't Anti American or wrong, but you gotta think " do I feel lucky " with this purchase.

I'd personally buy fully equiped Promaxx 175 for $900, and have a specialist dissasseble and check materials as bought, and pay for the PTV check and combo matching. They are a favourable drop off the AFR and TFS if your forced to be budget conscious for whatever reason.

Even Promaxx castings have the odd discontinuity, they aren't perfect, and it pays to have them checked, any head. Promaxx replaced Patriot, making heads in the old Alabama Cylinder Heads building, but with much, much better CNC porting, and with those lessons learned, they don't deserve to be mentioned to gether.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-302-331...-/351308717727

Headbytes Porting cuts em up so you can see just how good it is. Now its owner Tom/Tony Sizemork, I can't personally speak any of him due to an unfortunate You tube record over 5 people wanting 10 cylinder heads back, but the supplier, Skip White Performance, couldn't care less, and gave him a head to cut up. He sure cuts up a good Promaxx 200 Chevy head and does a show and tell at the same time. The Ford head is similar according to Ethyl Cat, who knows one of the company mangers.

I guess if Quantico Cylinder Heads do the same, and show the same wall thicknesses, then the 660 bux will be even more worth while.


Just a quick note to you, 86AscMclaren. A simple Brinell or Rockwell test will vouch for the quality of the heat treating, which is what maintains the gasket seal on aluminum heads. It needs to be tested on the base deck face, and on the posilock or head stud boss.

A simple ASTM test that can be done for 50 bux. If the head is around 85-90 Brinell, it most likely won't hold the gasket without casting yield. Generally, although it varies, the minimum safe level of hardness is 95 Brinell. That's based on normal index testing the English use, and asside from Cosworth, the English generally don't do so well with aluminum castings as the US. Edelbrock I think rates as the best, heaviest bulk density aluminum heads on the market.

I'd bet money that for that price, the casting weight and peak hardness won't be a patch on the better US aluminum heads.


But if it is, I'll recant.

Its all about being smart with your money, if saving 300 bux on the table is your kinda thing for the reasons stated, then more power to ya!

[bwguardian]

Since you are considering GT40p heads now, I have heard that the el cheapo Ebay stainless headers http://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Ford-86-...FY01oc&vxp=mtr work, but this is heresay. I know the Ford Racing stainless headers work with them as this is what I have on my 85 GT vert...no special parts or tools required.

[FB71]

Anyone ever evaluate FloTek heads? I know one of the magazines (HR/CC) did a comparison. A friend bought a pair for a car, but sold it shortly after installing them ('67 Shelby clone, sold to an interested party during it's first show), so he never really got to evaluate them.

https://www.flotekheads.com/

[Haystack]

Pretty much gt40 clones in aluminum.

[86AscMclaren]

Xctasy, you make a lot of good points, and being budget conscious in the first place i wouldnt want to spend 600+ on heads to have em not work, not when there are other options out there. Trick Flow and AFR are nice heads, but they're out of budget, at least if i want to get this thing on the road this decade. Since Im not looking for the performance they'd give I dont feel its worth waiting for. P heads in the local JY are 150, i talked to a reputable shop in town, and its 200 to have em machined, plus a hundred or so for a new spring kit, and 100 for that set of headers that was linked earlier, puts me at about the price of the aluminum heads, and about where i want to be anyway, so i might just go that route. I am interested in the promaxx heads, the ones you linked are for flat lifter cams, but a little digging found what im looking for

Thank you all for the feedback, Ive lurked here for years and never really posted, you guys are awesome with info, Im sure i'll have more questions as i go along this thing

[erratic50]

Be sure you get your compression ratio right. Have a long term plan for what you are going to do and proceed strategically. too many times we've seen huge chamber heads on a stock 302. Great to sit at 8:1 compression if you are going to add boost. Otherwise a small chamber that can give you 10:1 or better will make a lot more power.

[86AscMclaren]

Be sure you get your compression ratio right. Have a long term plan for what you are going to do and proceed strategically. too many times we've seen huge chamber heads on a stock 302. Great to sit at 8:1 compression if you are going to add boost. Otherwise a small chamber that can give you 10:1 or better will make a lot more power.

The compression ratio is giving me nightmares. Im not good at math, and there are alot more variables then i first thought. My first thought was just go with a CC thats the same size ish as the original head, but that doesnt take into effect gasket thickness or a host of other things. I found a useful tool on summit racings website, but i havent been able to find how much the valve reliefs in teh 91 pistons add to the CC, or take away. I know the compression dropped .2 in 87.... I really just need to call one of these shops that sells heads, talk to someone, tell em what i have, and go from there. The company Xctasy linked that sells those promaxx heads looks like they know what theyre doing, and im sure there are some speed shops here in vegas i can go talk to.

[Haystack]

I guess they would work, as long as you are swapping out pistons.

An inline head wont clear 86 pistons. Even the cheapiest afr heads everyone keeps recommending for some reason. Any type of head that even resembles a stock head wont clear unless it has the same size or smaller valves. And even if it does clear, it pretty much rules out a camshaft upgrade.

Theres a reason i brought up trickflow. Edelbrock makes some as well.

[erratic50]

91 pistons will work with GT40P heads no problem generally. Valve springs and the other usual things are needed for an exploder head swap to work with an HO or similar/better cam.

Re addressing the initial question - generally speaking a 2.02 intake valve will not clear a stock 87-93 piston of any flavor without enlarging the reliefs unless you have crazy strong springs and low lift and short duration on your side - bad design long term. A person is very little better off with a 91 piston than an 86 - in many ways it is easier to cut the right amount when you start with an uncut slug. Albeit if the exhaust valve is big enough it may need a relief too.

I wouldn't bother with swapping slugs if the 86's are good. Rering it and sell off the 91's and throw on some twisted wedge heads.

Rough math 302 CID / 8 cyl = 37.75 CID per

Volume of a cylinder is radius squared times PI

Calculating it we get
4" stroke ^2 * 3.14 = 37.68 CID per

Google CID to CC conversions. 37.68 is 617.46457 CC


Or we know a 302 is really 301.49 == 4940.53593 CC / 8 = 617.56699125 per cyl

If you want a 10:1 compression ratio, you need 61.75.... cc chambers not factoring in gasket thickness or less than zero decking on the block, valve reliefs, etc.

If you shoot for 11 most of the time you'll end up near 10.25 unless your gaskets are way thick or the slug is way down the hole or something wonky is going on.


My Edelbrocks I have on my shelf have a 50 CC chamber after they were planed. They flow 230 which is way plenty for a 302. Compression figures at just over 12.25:1 before I subtract for the extra stuff. Premium fuel only for sure which is fine because I will run E85 with that motor to jack up the cyl pressure even more. Shooting for 400 HP with my build. I have the induction and cam and injectors to support it.

[bwguardian]

86AscMclaren, the other things you aren't considering in your budget is those Ebay budget aluminum heads will need screw in studs, locking nuts, rocker arms, guide plates, and hardened push rods, etc.. Also, the reason the 87 up compression ratios dropped was because they were dished in the top middle which equates to about 4cc's separate and apart of the valve reliefs. The 84 and earlier pistons were basically a flat top (no central dish) with valve reliefs..but were cast slugs. The year only 85 pistons were the same as the earlier units but were forged slugs. Then the year only 86 pistons were forged flat tops with no valve reliefs. The 87 and ups were as aforementioned and forged. I think in 93 is when the same slugs were utilized...except they were hypereutectic slugs. The GT40p heads on my stock short block put it at about 9.5:1 with a standard thickness head gasket...maybe a little less. It has no valve clearance issues with the E-303 cam. I have been really happy with this setup, given I as you, just wanted to give the car a little extra power but nothing that was going to start breaking things. I also wanted to keep most all of the parts Ford or Ford Racing on the car for nostalgia reasons...it is a fun weekend car...

[86AscMclaren]

86AscMclaren, the other things you aren't considering in your budget it those Ebay budget aluminum heads will need screw in studs, locking nuts, rocker arms, guide plates, and hardened push rods, etc.. Also, the reason the 87 up compression ratios dropped was because they were dished in the top middle which equates to about 4cc's separate and apart of the valve reliefs. The 84 and earlier pistons were basically a flat top (no central dish) with valve reliefs..but were cast slugs. The year only 85 pistons were the same as the earlier units but were forged slugs. Then the year only 86 pistons were forged flat tops with no valve reliefs. The 87 and ups were as aforementioned and forged. I think in 93 is when the same slugs were utilized...except they were hypereutectic slugs. The GT40p heads on my stock short block put it at about 9.5:1 with a standard thickness head gasket...maybe a little less. It has no valve clearance issues with the E-303 cam. I have been really happy with this setup given I as you, just wanted to give the car a little extra power but nothing that was going to start breaking things. I also wanted to keep most all of the parts Ford or Ford Racing on the car for nostalgia reasons...it is a fun weekend car...

I think this is what im going to end up doing. I realized that i would need screw in studs etc as i went to be last night for the aluminum heads, for what i want, gt40 with or without p is the direction im going. The original 86 block is torn apart, and going await a father son full performance rebuild sometime down the road. I should clarify that i have a 91 short block from a GT, pistons in it, good shape, etc, thats what the new heads will be going on. The only parts i really car about keeping ford are the intake manifold, not a fan of the aftermarket looks, and since its a fairly rare car, at least the gt40 intake looks stock, to the lay person. Right now im keeping the stock cam, i realize the springs need to be changed even with it, but, do the f3ze regular gt40 heads need new springs as they were also used on the cobra, or would explorer f3ze heads need new springs, the stock EXP cam doesnt look all that much more aggressive, but then im not too informed on cams. The stock cam is .444 and it seems the stock explorer cam was .42? ish?

[PaceFever79]

Pass

Rather have good used heads for 600.