Carburetor / intake reccomendations, advice

[Lowetlx]

Hi guys, I recently joined the site because I picked up a 84 5.0 5speed car. I'm looking to see what would be my best direction to go with this car. My plans with the car is to drive solely on the street, no track time. no racing. I want decent power and good drivability for driving on nice days with the top down. I plan on returning the ac to the car and getting it operational as well.

The car I bought was disassembled and does not currently run. It has an 89 roller engine installed. it was said to be the stock cam. I will confirm that before reassembling. The 89 engine is remanufactured and appears to be fresh, it has a roller cam and lifters. and e7te heads so I believe it to be an 87 up HO motor. very clean inside almost new. it has long tube headers, off road h and a flow master cat back. I received an offenhauser 360 split port single plane intake and the factory intake and factory carb. as well as many efi swap components I don't plan to use. I received the stock 84 long block, exhaust manifolds and all the emissions stuff that belongs to it.

here are the options I have

1. return 84 engine to the car and reassemble completely stock
2. install the correct distributer gear and cam eccentric on the 89 engine. leave the performance exhaust on the car and run the stock intake and carb(is the stock carb decent enough for this?)
3 same as #2 but buy a new 600 cfm holley and a better dual plane intake for street driving such as a edelbrock or a weiland.

[erratic50]

I'm always a fan of correct. Freshen the 84, restore, sell off the rest.

[xctasy]

Personal advice. I haven't done this, but I've done a lot of carb research.



The 4bbl is a much miss understood beast that has a huge amount of hidden performance in it. Having a numbers match block is of value f your enjoyment is the main aim. Anytime anything goes wrong, you can get stock parts to fix it. An 89 EFI engine upgrade without EFI is always going to be a mismatch, and someone might force you to update the whole engine combo. Better to keep your 84 all 84 if you can.

Best thing 101 is...if you have the '86-'93 style H-pipe cat back system, and its dual exhaust now with a proper brake line update, then if yes to that, then its like JACook's 85 CFI Vert, an upgrade none but a zealot wold pick.

i.e. a straight JBA long tube and 86 on-wards exhaust system upgrade which is where a huge boost in power comes from. You have a thermatic valve heat pickup which can be hooked up to the passenger side header as per JACook's advice in fgross's 84 CFI Convertible exhaust system.

My integrated list would be to

revert to the stock 84 engine and emissions package, its simply excellent.

Since it is a hydraulic non roller cam run in properly, the cam will last without the old zinc additive that oil used to have. No advantage in a roller cam engine or block.

Sell the rest for good money.




Do three things.

1. Grab the secondary metering kit upgrade, the

2. Then the Edlebrock # 3721 intake and 4-bbl 8053 EGR adaptor, and have the # 3721 opened up and ported with a die grinder to improve its flow rating, and for the 8053 EGR, have it re profiled as a HVV Super Sucker adapter below.

3. Do the GT40P head swap with Andersons valve springs and new seals. Have the heads shaved 70 thou to match the earlier 84 heads to keep compression up to 8.4 or more, the thermactor lines drilled, and the gt40p identifications removed. 86 header swap as per

Info
1. http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...603#post542603
2. http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...pgrade-stocker

3a.

The Edelbrock 3721 is the only 4-barrel intake currently offered that will retain the EGR
and also the two thermal vacuum switches at the back.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-3721/?image=large


If you don't have a factory 4-barrel EGR spacer, you can get a used factory one from
someone here on the board. Edelbrock also sells an EGR plate that would work-
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8053/?image=large

The Edelbrock plate does not have all the same vacuum nipples as the factory plate,
but the only one you need is the one for the canister purge, and it has that one.

EDL-3721



EDL-8053


3b.

Stock intake is and always will be the bottle neck. Yes it can be ported but the lack of material and very small section width limits what it can me made to do. The edlbrock performer is a substantial upgrade and yet it is a very very weak intake that also needs tons off runner and plennum work to make any real power over 5500rpms.
The performer rpm airgap is the best and tallest intake that can be run under a stock hood with the dual snorkel aircleaner while still allowing factory coil and throttle cable locations. This intake also allows you to hide the wiring harness in the valley. It will support over 400 hp out of the box but the factory heads will be the next bottleneck for you to overcome.
If your sticking to the factory intake replace the egr with a hhv super sucker and give the intake to Tmoss for porting.
1" supersucker pictured. Night and day difference when i installed one on my 83. Had to increase jets by 3 sizes after to compensate.

All this allows you to keep to simple VECI, EVTM and wiring stuff, and maintain emissions, economy and the rampant punch the last 85 4-bbl engines are known for. Ford spent millions on that emissions package and four corner idle 4-bbl carb.

84's are quite restricted, but in two steps for 84.5 and again for 85, the engine went up from 175 to 210 hp, and it wasn't the roller cam that made much of a improvement, it was unblocking the exhaust in two steps.

[erratic50]

Roller cams have some advantages big picture. Most importantly though, make certain the 84 has an adequate oiling setup to support your driving style and a flat tapper cam. The very last thing you want is a cam/lifter problem sending metal through your motor.

[4eyedfoxdriver]

I'll take option #3 FTW
I'd also probably go ahead and throw some 1.7 Roller rocker arms on.
I've had great luck with the Quick Fuel carbs , which is now owned by Holley.

The stock 84 motor would probably be down 50 hp to that combo. Unless it's something special I'm not sure that having the stock motor over a later model roller block would mean anything.

[xctasy]

Mmmm. Maybee.I guess that's a lot of fiddling to be a Numbers Match person. I've spent a lot of time with 4-bbl Ford owners, and the EFI vs Carb on road performance has the best tuner emerging victorious. The off idle low end torque goes all the CFI and Port EFI engines way, but on the street, a good 4-bbl is as much fun as a great 86-89 SD EFI, definately Fords best 5.0 engine. We missed out on the HO 5.0 SD engine down here, we got spreadbore Clevelands till 1985, and then only the 195 hp 5.0 truck F150 engine. In 1992, MAF 5.0 GT HO engines in every 5.0 Falcon, Fairmont, Fairlane and LTD. In those cars, the auto 1979 302c 4V vs 1992 5.0 HO gave the heavier weight late moel efi cars a 1 second 1/4 mile improvement (16.9 sec 1/4 mile with 188 hp and 253 lb-ft in a 3163 pound 2.92 axle C4 auto, vs 15.9 seconds in a 221 hp, 3.08 axle 284 lb-ft 3417 pound AOD auto in 1992), but the 1/4 mile mph was the same, and the Cleveland ran a 256/266 cam and the HO a 270 cam). Same relative differences when the manual single rail transmission is compared to the T5.

But the earlier S pack Falcon 4.9 car is still a much more fun to slam around in than an XR8. Even though ours wasn't vacume secondary, the 4-bbl 4.9 and 5.8's are every bit as impressive on the street as an EFI 5.0 or Modular 5.4/347/5.8. 4 barrel carb cars don't ever win the first 60 yards of a stop light battle, or 60 ft times at the drags, but they are much more fun in wet day in the traffic, with a lovely sound and (if I can say it without getting strung up like Mussolini) strapiddo that EFI doesn't match.

What I do know from the engine rebulders is that ruining or wiping out a lobe in a non roller cam is generally due to excessive valve spring poundage in the 265 to 300 plus erea. The Ford in line six guys haven't wiped out lobes with there 264 to 278 degree aftermarket cams like eveyone thought, and prominant FE engine bulders have repeadely said that its a nose tension issue, and that if they were run in in a good ZDDP envirmnent back in the day, or run in these days with some good runing in oil, you won't wipe a lobe. Saem applies for the Windsor 302-351 engines...they don't carry the poundage to destroy a non roller cam if they are run in to spec.

As for the power issues, I'm pretty sure the stock FoMoCo non letter cams are not any gain in hp or torque for a match race between the Tornio cam.

My take on it is the stock roller cams aren't any better than the Lightening cam. It was the ease of getting a 9:1 engine with even the mixture motion of the restrictive E6 or better E7 heads, and the exhaust opening up from the headers to the four cats and dual pipes that made the 86 to 89 engines so strong. Dearborn were just looking for easy emission passes, and the roller cam helps with that.

EFI is more restrictive than a 4-bbl carb with a good Weiand or Performer intake, as fine atomised gasoline makes no more power. Its the superior fuel management and spark tables and all those lovely lines of special code and torque optimzing algoritims that made the Speed Density and early MAF EECIV's such stout cars. Pump up the octane, wind up the base timing, and they just barked.


On the street, a vac sec 4180C is a brilliant thing, with a noticable and fun torque hole from 2500 to 3000 under wide open throttle, but after that, it erupts. The torque curve of an 89 EFI engine would be replicated with a 4180c with those mods above. Bigger carb intakes loose low end torque, the 5.0 always makes more off idle torque as a CFI 2 holer or EFI than a 4-bbl, but the 4180c is much more responsive than a 780 3310 or 650 double pumper in the street setting, and very economical.


Adding the same great GT40P style heads to all that coarse droplet Holley 4-bbl leaker stuff makes a carb street 5.0 very strong. That darned intake was a limit to the 260 hp the early sedan racers found. The letter cams are a lot more hp able than the 1973 Torino cam, but roller to Torino, not an issue, pretty much the same. Lower tier roller cams were just for easy emissions compliance.


Anyway, there are two ways Ford skinned the street performance cat, and EFI or carb, then they broke it down into CFI/Port EFI, or 2bbl/2-bbl Variable Venturi and 4bbl,


Each can make the same erputive performance. Ask cops just how well a P71 5.8 goes with the brain dead 7200V.V .

Ford USA quickly cut out on painting the perfect 2 and 4-bbl picture...because of the emissions situation, it never optimised the metering rod mechanical secondary spreadbore carbs in the USA, although they sure did in Australia from 1976 to 1985 in about 90,000 188 to 207 hp 302C 4.9's, and 200 to 216 hp 351C 5.8's in Falcons, LTD's and F100/150/250's and Bronco's. 253 to 316 lb-ft iron intake 4-bbl carbed engines which, when tuned within factory spec, ate anything up in sub 17 to 16 second 1/4 miles, and even a good Port EFI XR8 Falcon 5.0 with the 1993 to 2001 5.0's with the best 270 degree roller cam lanquises by comparison. Even the late 85 5.0 EFI truck F150 engine missed out on the 302 C 4-BBLS urgency under the accelerator.

Don't forget how good a Q jet or Themoquad or well set up Edelbrock Performer 1405/1406/ 1411, Edelbrock/Carter AVS/AFB is. It was just easy EPA passess that pushed Port EFI/TPI into the ring early...an EFI vs 4-bbl match race is a neck and neck thing, with the best tuner winning.

[Walking-Tall]

If that Offy is in good shape, and is the "Dual-Port" design, I can vouch for it's perfect street manners, based on extended personal experience using one on a mild 302 for many years and miles, that also saw frequent 6500+ rpm with a 750 vacuum secondary on it. IMHO, the design should have continued (and did so with SEFI - the boys now sporting SEFI cannot tell you that their intakes are not a smallish cross section single plane intake), because the smaller cross section of the runners connects with the carburetor's primaries, and then the larger of the passages connects with the carburetor's secondaries... and it flat works, real good.

As to your situation, I would choose to go with the fresh engine, the '89, with the Offy on it and a good used core 1850 or 3310 rebuilt. Sell off the '84 stuff, or bag it and refresh it someday for the purists if you choose to sell your Mustang and want the most dollars it can bring.

[xctasy]

Offenhauser 360 split port single plane intake is potentially great BSFC candiate, and works better in that regard in Windsors than Clevelands, 350's, LA's, Rover Buick Olds Pontiac 215's.


Port to port air fuel balance is in question on some engine platforms, not all SP SP 360's are the same ranking in there engine families. I think it does okay in 5.0's, but don't know exactly. Normally, I can go to chapter and verse with a Car Craft article, and lock it down, but not with this.


I'm a devot lover of TQ's and Offy's, they are great on LA's.


I've just got no referencing tests to draw on for a 5.0 Ford. Since a restrictive Split Port is likely to be good for economy and low end, it might work well with more CFM. In a light car, the efforts of the 80's would have been much better concentrated into the single plane intakes, but everyting was two barrel, and only the TQ, 4180C, and 4MV Rochester got development work. The 4360 Holley and the halfway house 4165/4175's were just Thermoquad/ Q Jet stand ins.

Injection killed the 360 Offy.

I like the 3310 780. Best Vac Sec carb ever. Holley Strip Dominator, best intake ever. No Offy experience.


Having the parts you have, and not buying anything, and using them, that's why we post questions.


I don't thing you can really screw up a 4-bbl Ford with whatever option you continue with.


I love the idea of the best performance Vac Sec on a good single plane, but don't know what your low end torque curve, or air fuel trim work is going to be.

[erratic50]

Loved my 360 offy on my 74 351W with shaved down and 5 angled D0OE heads. Mine had a relief cut in the dual plane divider at dead center to cause a little less low end in favor of top end. That motor routinely screamed past 6000, albeit it was taller than a stock 460 by a lot.

I can still hear the music of that old moaning-ass Carter on top of that old lump through purposely burnt out NAPA glass packs installed in custom bent duals. You know you're getting somewhere with power production when a massive 74 Galaxie would run right with a 350 Buick shoved into a much smaller by comparison 79 Prix.

[Lowetlx]

Thanks for the advice. The offenhauser I have is the split port with a small notch cut out between them. If it lives well on the street then it makes sense to keep that intake and install a new carb. I will likely keep the 84 stock parts in a box just in case. Since it appears to be all there. What is a good solid mechanical fuel pump for this combo?

[slow84lx]

Option #3 would be my choice. There are very few people who care whether the '84 block is matching #'s due to all of the improvements made in the next couple of years which made the Mustang more powerful and fun to drive. Vintage mustangs are another matter and some of that may be fading nowadays also.

Either way you go have fun with your car and make it the way that you want it.

[erratic50]

Well - all things being stock except intake and exhaust..... 3 will run better due to the HO roller. The offy will work well with a good carb on top. Add some 1.7:1 rockers while you are fiddling with it.

Sounds like this might be the cheapest and easiest too. Depends upon what's in the car right now.

[Lowetlx]

#3 is the route I've decided to go with. For now. I just want to get the car back on the road. I'm in process of installing the eccentric on the cam. I ordered a 1850 and a new pump. The stock fuel lines run too close for comfort to the long tubes. So I will reconfigure those to the front of the engine bay rather than the rear. I should have it running in a week or so. Once it's running I will move on to reinstalling the a/c that was removed.