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Thread: 1985 GT Build

  1. #76
    FEP Power Member Boomer85gt's Avatar
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    Awesome work you've done there!

  2. #77

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    Thanks Boomer.


    Took car out for a quick joyride tonight before storms roll in, rain forecasted for most of next week here. No major accomplishments made since last post other than prepping a new sub-fuse panel for my datalog stuff. Right now I have a 12ga. power wire running from the underhood power distribution box to power my A/F gauge and O2 controller. I'm planning to power the sensor interface from this wire so splitting it up into separate fused circuits inside the car. Been tied up with house projects last couple weeks, should be done with them soon and get back to piddling with this hopefully.

    New sub fuse panel:
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  3. #78
    FEP Power Member qikgts's Avatar
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    Nicely done! Pride in workmanship right there!
    '85 GT

  4. #79

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    Thanks. Always try to do my best.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  5. #80

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    Thomas,
    I have read with a lot of interest your car build - very nice! I have a question, what Ford Power Distribution Box & bracket (Part number or car where it came from) you put in your car's underwood (shown in post #66)? I would like to emulate that in my project car.
    Thanks, Raul

  6. #81

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    Hi Raul,

    Thank you.

    The distribution box and bracket I purchased on ebay and was listed as being from an '03-04 Mustang w/ ABS. I believe all '94-04 Mustangs use a similar box and bracket, though the internal arrangement of fuses and relays changed through the years. I wasn't paying attention when I bought the box and it didn't include the bracket and had to source it from another seller. There's also a plastic cover that goes over the power cable lug that I didn't get and still need to source (not necessary, but would like to have). If you're getting these parts from your local auto salvage you can just grab what you need, but if you're buying online be sure to look for these ancillary pieces. Hope this helps and good luck with your project. If you have more questions, feel free to ask.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  7. #82

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    Probably not the wisest decision, picked this up off ebay. It's a 3310-4. A little newer than I'd hoped, but price was acceptable. Wasn't finding much locally for a price I was willing to pay. Came in the mail tonight and promptly disassembled it for inspection. Nothing appears to be wrong with it other than it's a little dinged up, dirtier than sin and goobered up a bit with RTV. Got a rebuild kit on the way. Want to add an electric choke kit and maybe later on a secondary metering block. Hoping to get it all cleaned up this weekend.

    Anxious to compare this to the 600 I've been running. Expect it will be interesting.

    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  8. #83

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    Carb disassembled, ready for cleaning.

    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  9. #84

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    That distribution block looks vaguely familiar.

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    Except mines on the driver's side. I got 3 of them at pull a part for like 10 dollars each. I cannibalized connectors out of the other 2 to populate everything I needed. I used the 4 relays for my 2 fans and my headlights. These are in 90's Stangs, Tbirds, and maybe Crown Vics...I know 2 of them I got weren't in Mustangs. There are at least 3 different bottom pieces that direct the wires out and at least 2 different mounts. I made a bracket to mount mine out of aluminum and put rivnuts in the fenderwell to mount it all. I finally after almost 2 years have gotten around to wiring it all up.

    Yours looks a lot better than mine! Great work!


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    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  10. #85

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    Sweet, that 750 should be a game-changer on your 347, Thomas

    Your hoping to find an earlier one was good thinkin' for a couple reasons, but the good news is that even with a later -4 (it's a -4 main body with earlier base or -1 front and rear metering blocks on my car right now), a few changes (if needed (adjustable primary idle feed restrictions and primary idle air bleeds are always a good thing) and one important addition, and it'll work real good.

    A very good first modification/addition to seriously consider for newer vacuum secondary carburetors with ~1-3/8" (and bigger) primary venturi diameters (where true to big corporate knuckle-head-ery, Holley elected to save about a buck each beginning a fair while ago) is... I'll bet that if you peer down the passenger side primary venturi, you will not see a 1/8" 45-degree slash-cut tube poking out into that venturi's air stream... those were always put into the earlier ones because they needed it for proper and full signal for vacuum secondary operation... smaller primary venturi diameter carburetors don't require the signal tube because the airflow signal to open the secondaries is adequately stronger through a smaller venturi with just a small hole into the venturi. I will refer you directly with a link on how to add one, so that the secondaries will open as they were intended to as well as FULLY open.

    Second, good "recipe" orifice sizes to check out (and change if necessary) for a good working 3310.


    Link to very good instructions for vacuum secondary diaphragm signal tube addition:
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/raci...tube-t205.html


    Link to a good 3310 "recipe" that I ("GNTKLLR") listed in thread post #6:
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/raci...ipe-t2196.html


    - If memory serves, your camshaft is fairly mild in a 347, so 0.031" primary idle feed restrictions should work well
    - (the original primary idle feed restrictions, if the primary block is the original, are usually 0.035" or 0.036")
    - 3310-4 original power valve is 6.5"Hg, which is likely fine
    - the green accelerator pump cam works nice
    - #31 shooter came in -4's (earlier 3310/-1/-2/-3 used #25...)
    - the purple or long yellow secondary spring works nice

    Best of luck with it, Sir
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 09-19-2019 at 10:32 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  11. #86

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    Thanks, Drew. I have to admit, though, I stole the distribution box idea from you. Personally, I think your install looks pretty damn good. I put mine on the passenger side to be close to the battery. Haven't done it yet, but plan to get extra boxes for connectors also.


    Appreciate the tips, Mike. Looking forward to playing with this thing. Will definitely study tuner's instructions on adding the signal tube, sounds like the thing to do. It's irritating that Holley has screwed this stuff up.
    Last edited by 85MUSTANGTGT; 09-20-2019 at 12:44 AM. Reason: correction
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  12. #87

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    Added the vacuum secondary signal tube and replugged the passage per the link Mike posted above. Hope this works.

    Stay tuned, more to come......




    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  13. #88

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    I'm glad someone is looking at my thread...although I do realize you all probably get bored waiting years for an update.....LOL



    I will probably drop the tank, paint the tank cover, replace the filler neck seal, and put some fresh gas in it this weekend and see if it really does run and if my fans come one.
    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  14. #89

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    Nice work, buddy. Now it'll work like it was supposed to (originally figured out as needed in them a long time ago, based on functional reality... then later abandoned, in the name of what cannot be explained by anything other than their bottom line, like further other obviously abandoned calibration aspects for correct and predictable and efficient function, that I see to this day with even new out of the box, prettier, expensive wannabe's... on top of a general lack of basic attention to detail, with things like wrongly sized or missing necessary circuit passages, or to even simply the clearing out of machining debris prior to getting slapped together and boxed... I truly detest seeing what they've become, especially from a place where nothing less than near perfection ought to be coming from in 2019, ~6 decades of what should be great experience/know-how... but I suppose it keeps me with something to do).

    Pre-rant: ... Now it'll work like it was supposed to ---> adequate, predictable resultant secondary diaphragm sensitivity to the varying opening points and rates of the handful of secondary diaphragm spring choices that there are for tailoring to a combination, and all available airflow (tube/passage vacuum) signal to the vacuum secondary diaphragm chamber to fully open the secondary throttle blades of a 4-barrel carburetor... gee, what a concept

    347 should like it
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  15. #90

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    Didn't get lucky and have any carb parts show up early in the mail today. Oh well, plenty to do in mean time anyway.

    Today's progress: IFR and PVCR passages drilled and tapped. Installed .031 IFR's and .063 PVCR's to start with.

    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  16. #91
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85MUSTANGTGT View Post
    Found a decent deal on the on the Innovate sensor interface box for my datalog setup. This connects with the A/F gauge I already have and will let me log 4 outputs from nearly any type of sensor. Also picked up a MAP sensor and I've already posted some about the TPS mount I'm working up. Not sure what I might do with the spare 4th channel. Would be nice if I could figure out a way to log timing advance.




    Temporarily hooked everything up to verify component function and make preliminary software setup adjustments. So far, so good....



    Next up will be to finalize my wiring/installation plan and pick up the few additional wiring components, finish my TPS mount and linkage, then actually install and wire everything.

    Estimated Project Completion Time: 6-9 months.
    Channel four can be used to log advance.

    The ignition advance for all 5.0 Port EFi cars in the USA'S big three (GM, Ford, and Mopar) is administered by Electronic Spark Control (GM), EECIII, IV (Ford)...basically everything with a solid state spark ramp is easiest charted by the Delco Cal Pac MemCal, or the PID's in the later SEFI EECIV's for 5.0's..about 1991-1995. The In Betweener Maliase Era Duraspark, HEi or Mopar Solid state ECU ( Electronic Lean Burn/ Electronic Spark Control) were all very hard to map dynamically, so GM, Ford and Chrysler just decided to get them running off a defined ECU table, so if you don't have a Delco, Motorola or Renix sor Bowland and Grippo Mega Squirt ystem, you'll have to measure the TDC to BTDC Advance pluse width by Cat V Multimeter to the defacto CPS. Ford did this so painlessly for 5 years before the TFI got dual sync measurement in the 1986 5.0 Port EFi Mustang.

    The part most people miss is the real time data logging for DuraSpark.

    For that, you go back to the simple regular rocket science, and use Fords ages old Dual Sych TFi method if you are using TFi from a port EFi car....then you just use Megasquirt or any of the Mega Jolt systems.

    However, if your keeping Duraspark, then you use the 1980-1985 Duraspark III Hall Effect reluctor designed for the standard Big Ford 6-1/2" or 6.40" actual diameter harmonic balancer, and just log the spark events with a four tooth reluctor and SU213 Duralast CPS, which is a straight replacement for the 4.2/5.0/5.8/6.6 liter Brown Box equiped passenger car or Light Truck/Van system which powered the Lincoln Mercury big Sterling Fox S shells, Panthers, and some California spec Fords. That is inputed into the forth channel as a base votage to define TDC.

    The sensor logs a squarewave form, and you can trace it against the inductance (BTDC) from an always on timing light on Cylinder 1.

    The bulb out put is a square wave form with off a base voltage of zero. To get a clean signal, you sometimes have to run a pull-up resistor if you have a lot of other fuzz from the alternator, cooling fans, etc, but your just logging the peaks of the ignition event for number one cylinder. On my old Sun Engine Analyser, they just use an oscilloscope and a dial back timing light, and all that jazz is useless if you are out driving and logging good real world info.

    The OBDII era effectively began in 1990 for Ford, so you can real time data log EECIV/TFi stuff easily, but the Duraspark II stuff needs a few old Duraspark III tricks to make it usefull.

    Keeping the hoary old Duraspark is just fine, and it can be adjusted and logged easily if you can measure the phase seperation form the two squarwave form out puts.

    I use a rear view camera, small droid cam to my cell phone held to the passenger side where the old 4.2/5.0/5.8/6.6 EECII's and later Explorer CPS sat on the 1980-85 and 1996-2001 5.0's. I use a stock inductance timing light off number one, although you can re phase it off any cylinder as long as you find TDC for the cylinder, then you can put the camera and timing light in an easier spot. .

    Then video and the always on timing light flashes up the 55 degrees of white numbers from -10 to plus 45 on the TV screen


  17. #92
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Data logging pre TFi era ignition is real easy once you get clean signals.

    Road Warrior Dyno System was my first attempt in 2012. (RWDS 2012)

    81 Mustang

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlL7OxlQ3Q

    OBDII and Alec Pepper's Car Code is even easier (My RHD Explorer)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbZOX2LWsqY


    Ford aced this, but it is very difficult to get a clear view of exactly how smartly they did it, because Ford had Push Start modules, IDM control, and a very strange roll out of speed density MAP systems, with constant, bank fire and sequential and MAF systems, as well as the VAM unit on the 2.3 Turbo EFi's.

    Ford chopped and changed the ignition systems to suit the power-train requirements. 5 speeds, trucks, and 4 stage autos, turbos, superchargers, 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, they all had different requirements





    Dual synch distributors where what Ford was planning back in 1980, and For the High Output Central Fuel Injection and Port EFi 5.0's, they had single synchro. The Port EFi...only those, they had "Dual Sychro" Hall Effect reluctors with the eighth reluctor PIP cut to allow the electronic signal both ignition spark, and to sequence Sequential Injection for 1986.

    IIRC, The 1984.5-1985 Auto 5.0 HO with the CFi Fuel Injection system had a downgraded TFi, and so did the bank fire F-trucks with the from 1985 5.0 or 5.8 Port EFi.


    Ford devised a special kind of system before the 1983 era dual sych TFi ignition found in the 2.3 EFi Turbo, and then everything else new with the EECIV from 1984 to 1995.


    No electronic spark control was used with a Hall effect sensor except on the V8's. The in line sixes and V6's all missed out on the very advanced Duraspark III system. The feedback carb sixes and V6'S used stock Duraspark II or later TFi.....they skiped very good intermediate system, the 1980-1985 Brown Box Duraspark III.


    Fords DSIII used a v8 only, external Hall effect sensor system, found on

    Windsor 4.2(early)/5.0/5.8

    351M (81-82)

    and some 400's (1979-80 or maybee).


    The brown box control unit works in a similar way to the grey cap TFi.


    Ford had to contend with car like emissions for CA, and a harder Fed test on the 49 state and CA F truck and E vans,



    They were forced to run either:-

    EECII Central Fuel injection (L-M passanger cars, CA, 1980-1984, EECIII),

    2-bbl carbs of 7200 Variable Venturi (various 1978-1985, with some to 1991 in Police instals)

    2150 Motorcrafts with feedback idle control on some 1980 to 1985 cars/trucks. (2.8/4.2/5.0/5.8, some 6.6's)

    The later EFi 460's ran the secondary Crank Position sensor as well



    Rather than use the later TFi, you can use the stock Duraspark, and control the spark with an early 1980 to 1985 Crank Position sensor with 4 prongs.
    The truck and passenger stuff was indexed around that nominal 6-1/2" Crank Position Sensor with four prongs and a "C1963" control system found under Duralast SU213.






    All the Holley guys who have been trying to invoke brain dead 4-bbl throttle body EFi have been scratching there heads to understand how the early Hall effect works. They obviously didn't learn what Ford taught from 1978 to 1991...











    Ford made 2-bbl CFi systems work, but the TFI ignition systems were piloted with the four to five years of Duraspark III/ EECIII engines, and Fords literature was very poorly concocted... so much wrong stuff.



    Like this....this is an EECIII system with EECIV lables, so whatchout for Miss Information...









    if you want to Duraspark II, you can fully lock the advance system, and run it electroncially from a 256 register table.



    See svocapri's 15 Step method, and http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...rk-distributor



    or the wire it shut method of the Care of the less advanced rangerstation.com



    http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...tbi-swap.shtml



    For the 3310 Holley, your in luck....that can be 100% closed loop controlled as well.


    You can drag the best carb ever made kicking and screaching into the 21 st century with either

    Percy's Adjustajet,



    converted to a direct Manual Lean Out












    or Tom McNeily's Avaiton based system for air fuel adjustment.


  18. #93
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The only issue with data logging is the loss of signal due to the electric fans and 130 Amp alternator and EDIS. On my system, the Explorer data logging VIA Car Code tripped out under wide open throttle due to the signal noise (inductance). Innovate keeps all that as pipe delimited files, so its kept info, you don't have to real time data log with a coms port.







    TPS, whatever ever works for you. Innovate normally force you to use the GM style.

    The old system was to use Fords early pre EECIV sensor.

    The voltage/position transform is pretty easy. All pre EECIV stuff was EECIII, or MCU; the crossover point was about 1983, then Ford moved to low voltage TPS units, GM style. Ford decided to change the reference voltages from 12 volts (up to 14.7 volts) peak down to below 5 volts.

    see this

    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    The voltage sweep and TPS type changed for 1982 -1985 model year, so only your TPS needs to change to the later one, or the MCU's wired TPS input just needs to have a conversion transformation so a different voltage won't trip out a DTC.

    The #E0VE-9B989-AA Ford sensor has a 1.6-2.0 volt curb idle between black and green wires. In Fig 5, it details the same roll pin retained TPS unit, but this is the earlier adjustable, pre EECIV sensor type. The late models, 0.8 to 1.0 volt at curb idle between black and green wires, Type C, adjustable.Then another none slotted, Type D/RD, non adjustable with 0.90-1.10 volts curb.





    That TPS signal to the MCU changed in 1982 model year, the TPS was of a certain type, then changed to suit the MCU; that can be changed pretty easily.

    the Throttle Position Sensor for the Ford Motorcraft Variable Venturi 7200.
    Walker 200-1011 tps,

    Ford Part E0VE-9B989-AA.

    Its a bolt on under the automatic choke item, and as such will fit any other vehicle, including a Holley.

    Ford used it on the early MCU controlled VV carbs in the 1980 Panther LTD's with the HO 165 hp 351's, but there were others from 1977 to 1985. The voltage sweep changed for the later ones starting 1982 then all after 1984, although its in the same place on the later cars too. Just a differnt voltage increment as it sweeps around. They started moving to more EEC based systems, so they changed it to suit those.





    For close up, see http://repairguide.autozone.com/znet...3f8021227c.gif



    Walker 200-1011 tps is on the left

  19. #94

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    Holy crap, xctasy, that's a lot of good info there. Going to take me awhile to process all of that.

    I have a TPS from a 2001 Taurus that I'm working on fabbing a mount and linkage and a mid-80's Motorcraft MAP sensor. They're working as they should with the sensor interface after configuring the software.

    As far as logging timing, I had the idea of a crank position sensor and an inductive pick-up feeding an Arduino that would measure time between input pulses and then output a 0-5V signal for the SSI-4 to read and log. I have no idea if something like that is even feasible or, if so, how to even write code to make the Arduino do its part. I don't know that I'm particularly keen on ditching or significantly modifying my carburetor or factory DSII ignition system.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  20. #95

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    A bit of progress made on the 3310. All reused components have been cleaned up. Didn't have much luck removing the staining from the throttle bores, they are clean though. Rebuild kit came in so starting some reassembly, but this will be about as far as I get until I can get the rest of the parts I need (elec choke and metering block kits). Probably be a couple weeks until I can get them. Anybody figured out those money tree things yet?




    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  21. #96

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    When you figure out the money tree thing, please let me know
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  22. #97
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    imho, Drop the electronics untill you get it tuned right Mikes way, and then concentrate on optimizing your DSII and try a 20 dollar knock sensor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    When you figure out the money tree thing, please let me know
    My South African friends whos forefathers were ejected from Europe by totalitarianism got it best.

    There is no money tree,
    only a knowledge tree which you action with effort and perserverance
    and deciding not to network with all and sundry.


    Keep away from this....




    But if you want to, you can spend time on this




    Even Dual Throttle Body wireless controllers with the Arduino, the motor driver and the CAN communicator are possiable, see Jeremyp....guys like him have been studying this stuff, and doing wired electronics like this for his project 1980 Stang for 9 years here.


    The basics of Arduino systems are were Ford was in 1983-1985 with Formula 1 EECIV,

    low voltage Pulse Width Modulation electronics


    but you can do the same stuff in the protoype area of the MegaSquirt 2Extra.


    I'm with Mike though...Holley 4bbl carb and a good Duraspark II base, and some proper thought, and your in.


    Ima Feedback carb, knock sensor and Duraspark III kinda guy.



    What Ford did with the 351M F100 and Bronco trucks before the "M" got killed and replaced with more powerfull F150 351 Windsors was simplicity itself.


    It may have been fudged right down to 138 hp, but the basics were the origin of

    1. Feedback 100% Closed Loop EFi,

    2. Thin Film Igntion style preprogammed lookup table ignition

    3. Crank Position Sensor timing

    4. The Piezo Electric Knock sensor for 351W's that year in Panthers too

    which could make the same engine with a 780 cfm carb make 600 to 750 hp with ported iron Cleveland heads.

    And it all stats too look like Mopars 16.5:1 Electronic Lean Burn engine with a Thermoquad

    The references to Percy AdjustaJets, the Marvel Schelber airplane based mixture control valve, and all that jazz were just to stop you wasting time on individual Control Systems that tax your time, and don't leverage it.

    If you could lean cruise to 16.2, and have a full mixture adjustment sweep from 11:1 to less than 22:1, with fully adjustable ignition advance, and no electronic fuel pump and no EEC computer to pull everyting back to Stoich, you'd be interested.

    Well, Ford did that in 1981 on the 351M 2V 138 hp, and the knock sensor on the G code 351w 2V HO 180 hp. Down here in Australasia, Ford Motor Company Australia did the same thing with the 2-BBL Alloy Head II engines...feedback loop to control knock, air fuel and ignition timing

    In the USA and Australia for 1982, the the 351 M 2V's and 302C 4V's and 351C 4V's got quickly killed off by corporate edict and replaced in trucks with a non feedback Windsor 351 for 1982, and they had a 4V non feedback up till 1988.


    Mikes way is best.


    Ist Get into your carb and clean and do the Mike Mods.

    Then get a look at any of the three 100 % Adjustable on the fly Holley systems for main jet control, and employ lean and rich adjustment by hand throttle, with ignition adjustment by hand throttle as well. A Knock sensor signal tell tale will tell you if your too lean.


    Then spend some time building a feedback loop to control knock, air fuel and ignition timing.


    This will end up exactly the same as the 1985 Ford Falcon Cross flow six making 141 hp did in our little XF Falcon sedans down here. A lean cruise car that with a 4 or 5 speed manual gearbox does 17 second quarter miles with better economy than the 4 or five speed Port EFi 4.1 liter 162 hp version. The whole movement towards 14.7 or 15.2:1 close loop motoring was the ultimate con job.

    MegaSquirt has proved it, and other Throttle Body 4-bbl Injection systems are just a large bunch of confused snake oil salesmen wanting your money who had no idea how smart Ford were in 1981.

  23. #98

  24. #99

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    xctasy, I agree, Mike's way is best.

    The datalog setup has kind of always been a back-burner project. My intent for it was primarily for the ability to monitor what's going on with my car. If I run into a drivability issue I can make a datalog and review. I guess monitoring timing advance is a bit moot since once it's set, it is what it is. That 4th channel is probably better utilized some other way. A knock sensor like you mentioned probably is not a bad idea. A secondary reason was simply to scratch an electronics itch, just something cool to play with. Like I said previously, I have no intentions of removing the Holley and DSII ignition.

    Using the sensors to control anything never really entered my mind. If I wanted to spend my time and money screwing with that stuff I will just install a EFI system that already does all that.

    I was looking into the throttle position sensor for the VV carb you posted about a few days ago. If that will truly bolt on without modifying anything and work with my Innovate box, that is probably the way I should go and ditch the Rube Goldberg mount and linkage I was planning on making. Save me a lot of time and effort.

    Also, thank you for sharing what you posted. Always interesting and informative.
    Thomas

    1985 Mustang GT - Build Thread
    347 (10.5CR, AFR 185's, PP Crosswind Intake, Custom-ground Comp Hyd Roller Cam, Scorpion 1.6 Roller Rockers, Holley 3310-4), T-5, 8.8 w/3.55's, MM SFC's, T/A, PHB, LCA's, STB, KMB, Bilsteins, MM/H&R Springs, SN95 5-Lug, Cobra Brakes, '04 Mach 1 Steering Rack

  25. #100

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    A shamefully ridiculous example of why I tell folks in regard to Holley carburetors, "if you want a good one, get an old one":


    Posted at racingfuelsystems forum, entitled "Brand New Blunder #??? - A Heads Up..."

    "So a local (repeat client) fellow contacted me asking if I could fine tune his brand new spread bore vacuum secondary... that with a few miles of driving his '77 Malibu he found that it would hesitate upon light part throttle "tip in"...

    Observation #1 was a throttle lever bent over toward the main body badly, so badly that it was bent all the way down to the throttle shaft area and loose on the throttle shaft, obviously dropped before it went into the box, and bumping into the driver's side secondary link lever at wide open throttle as well... and a secondary stop bracket not allowing full wide open of the secondary throttle plates... idle screw backed out, fully shut primary throttle plates, he said still idled way too fast, primary lever and idle screw tip not even inline with each other (primary throttle shaft not fully installed/seated laterally originally), and quite open secondary throttle blades...

    Observation #2 was small appearing primary idle air bleeds, and large idle mixture passages and blunt-tipped idle mixture screws... so I told him it is a "reverse-idle" unit, and it'll have passage holes into the primary bores, blah blah blah how "reverse-idle" works etc... I don't remember where now, but online somewhere that sells these states that the 80555-1 4175 650 spread bore vacuum secondary has a "forward" idle circuit... I presume as opposed to "reverse"?... hmmm, okay...

    Observation #3 was NO holes/passages into the primary bores for "reverse-idle"... so, in a nutshell, it has standard idle main body and base plate, and a "reverse-idle" primary metering block and mixture screws... at first I got him back here and showed him all of their "quality control" and "attention to detail", and thought completing "reverse-idle" would be the best course of action to make it behave... but after some more thought about it, I decided against that, because it would mean blocking the large standard idle discharge holes in the base plate, drilling new small ??? size constant idle feed holes below the primary transfer slots, and drilling ??? size passage holes into the main body... so instead I drilled the idle mixture screw passages in the PMB with a #29 drill, tapped 8-32 thread on through the passage, and installed 8-32x1/8" brass socket set screws with 1/16" holes in them, so that regular sharp tip idle mixture screws can be used...

    Observation #4 was air bleed sizes crazy in contrast to the handful of these (other, older, LIST-7002 etc.) that I have dealt with before, as well as somewhat larger than usual primary idle feed restrictions at 0.029"... and #64 primary jets where #62's are supposed to be according to documentation...

    Here are it's original calibration details as I found/measured:
    - 0.029" PIFR's (?) & 0.035" SIFR's (#54 SMP - specs not listed anywhere btw)
    - 0.053" PIAB's (?) & 0.051" SIAB's (?)
    - 0.036" PMAB's & 0.040" SMAB's (?!)
    - #64 PMJ's (?) & 0.081" secondary main circuit holes (#54 SMP - specs not listed anywhere btw)
    - 0.057" PVCR's
    - 0.040" pump shooter (?!) and orange pump cam in position 2

    So I remedied the metering block like explained above, loosened throttle blade screws and shuffled shafts and blades around so they were correct, got out the brass and drills and created 6-32x1/8" 0.026" PIFR's (very mild stock replacement camshaft in rebuilt 350) and installed those in the block, installed #62 PMJ's, drilled and tapped and installed 10-32x3/16" 0.070" PIAB's, 6-32x1/8" (the secondary constant idle feed holes seemed a bit big at about 0.030", so I chose to create) 0.040" SIAB's and 6-32x1/8" 0.026" SMAB's, and installed new regular idle mixture screws and the orange pump cam in position 1... not having any "anti-pullover" shooters of other/smaller sizes on hand, the rather large 0.040" remains in it...

    A couple hours after picking it up, he was back at the door, beaming and grinning, telling me to come check out my handy work. He brought the car, and it was idling in the driveway slowly and nice and smooth, and he said it's working night and day real nice, and making far more sense setting idle speed and mixture... and when he left here, it launched real good, barking out the exhaust, lifting the nose of the car some and was off down the street, lol!

    Thought I'd share this with you guys who may end up dealing with one of these further enhanced (translation: EFFED UP) versions of the "new and improved" that come brand spankin' new outta that place and cost this fellow 750 smackers... for what? Nearly complete re-calibration necessary so that it will just FUNCTION correctly... pardon my french, but the pompous jackasses who apparently know-it-all really should be knocked down a few notches somehow... I wish..."

    So yeah, the moral of the story... stop buying expensive new garbage from giant monopolizing corporations, because contrary to their marketing and such, they do not know WTF they are talking about or doing there at all anymore.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

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