83 build advice needed

[Jmac509]

I have an 83 GT that I'm building into a nice street car. I'm making a list of everything that's wrong with the car right now so I can address all the problems. This car will probably only see the track 2-3 times a year. The motor is currently stock from what I know.

I'm in the process of pulling the factory heads off and am looking for recommendations on heads,cam, intake, and other parts that I might want to replace while I'm at it. I'm also looking for header and exhaust recommendations. The car currently has dual exhaust on it right now but its in bad shape.

From all the research I've done so far I'm currently planning on getting 190 11r heads and Edlebrock rpm performer intake. I'm still searching for a good street friendly cam.

If anyone has any other advice or suggestions I'm looking for any and all input. I'm hoping to keep this project around 10k. Thanks!

(I edited this post to narrow down the information I'm currently looking for)

[wraithracing]

First welcome to FEP!

We are a visually challenged group so we LOVE to see pictures of cars no matter what the condition, especially those of new members.

A car that will only see the track 2-3 times a year is a car that I would set up for street driving/cruising NOT track time, unless you just prefer the track setup on the street. The best option is to make your choices in drivetrain, suspension, etc. based upon where the car will spend the majority of it's time. If 90% or more is on the street and only 10% at that track then setup for the street will be used most often and you will most likely enjoy the car more being setup that way.

As for your questions.

1) Maximum Motorsports for Sub Frame connectors. Buy the full length versions and have them welded in by a competent shop if you don't have the skills or equipment. I personally have never done anything to my torque boxes in 30 years of playing with Foxes, but I also don't drag race my cars. I have run them on autocrosses, road racing, and hard street driving, but only the occasional drag run at the track. In my experience running a quality set of lower control arms such as Maximum Motorsports will prevent damage to the torque boxes unless you are running a 10 second or less drag car on slicks.

2) Brake system upgrades will vary with your choice on wheels and # of wheel lugs. If you are converting to 5 lugs then there are more brake and wheel options. If sticking with the 4 lug setup then the 87-93 V8 spindles and brakes are generally the best bang for the buck.

3) IMHO unless you are going for the maximum displacement such as a 393/408/427 based 351W the swap is not worth the added costs and headaches from someone that has done the swap. A well built 302 based engine with a well matched cam and induction system will provide more than enough power for the average Fox Body. Bottom line is how much power do you want and how much can you afford?

4) A project budget of 10K is a great budget and a lot can be done with that amount of $$. The big question is what all needs to be done. If the car has been sitting for 10+ years, then most likely you will need/want to replace all the weatherstripping and seals on the body. You might need interior parts such as headliner, carpet, seats or covers. The car may need paint, wheels, tires,etc. All of that will quickly eat away at a budget even a $10K budget.

I would highly recommend making a list of everything the car needs in order of importance. For most of us, it's better to get the car running and driving and then continue to fix/repair/replace as we drive and enjoy the car rather than doing a full restoration/rebuild. Too often the delayed satisfaction of driving the finished vehicle causes us to lose interest and ultimate the project never gets completed. So put a complete list together of everything the car NEEDS first and Second all the things you WANT to do to the car. Compare that to your budget and then determine how much and in what order things need to be done to get the car back on the road. Best of Luck!

[Jmac509]

This was from last week when I moved the car to my current garage.

I definitely want the car to be setup for the street, I'm not looking to swap in some super stiff suspension but I'm definitely planning on doing the subframe connectors and control arms. At some point I would also like to update the springs with a fresh set but I'm sure that will come farther down the line once the car is actually able to move under its own power.

I was planning on swapping over to 5 lug when I replace the 7.5" rear with an 8.8" so I think I'll stick with some lower priced brakes for now since the current calipers are totally seized

As far as the motor goes the car has 140k miles on it. I parked it back in 2006 due to a blown head gasket. At that time being a high school student I didn't have the resources to fix it. I will probably try to start the car this weekend assuming the carburetor still works and see if I can hear any noise coming from the main bearings. If everything sounds good I'll look into doing a heads and intake. I feel like if I'm going to do the work to replace the cam I might as well pull the motor and do a rebuild.

If the motor that is in it right now is bad what would you recommend for a rebuild? What induction system would you recommend if I decided to go that route?

The weather stripping and seals are definitely on the list. The headliner/carpet/seats/covers are in pretty good shape. I do need a new latch for the glove box though. The car will need paint at some point, the wheels look good and the tires are completely shot.

[83gt351w]

Welcome aboard. I second what Trey has said. The 351 swap is a fantastic swap to do. But, I speak from experience that there were many unknown cost associated with the swap that I was unaware of. For now, to get it road worthy, I'd stick with the 5.0 and get it running, save the 351 for a nice winter project down the road.

Ahhh yes, the pesky glove box door. Mine is broke as well, and it seems the 83 was the only year with the locking box.

Doenst hurt to drop the tank and replace the hoses. Mine sat for 20 years, and the gas tank was spotless on the inside.

[retro25]

Nice looking ride, and welcome to the site. It is a big project you are talking about. I know from personal experience. I started on my 84 2 years ago after it sat for 13 years. Now my ride had 220,000 miles on it before I parked it. Most of them mine since I bought it in '86. Your ride may be very tired so give it a thorough going over. The more you upgrade the more you have to upgrade. If you go 5 lug you are talking new lines and suspension upgrades while you are at it. It will nickel and dime you fast.

I am a glutton for punishment so I am dropping the 351w in my ride. The 302 was beat after all those miles so a complete rebuild was in order. But the 351w will cost more dollars from flywheels to headers and brackets. Come to a conclusion how far and how much you want to put into your engine before you get started. Your patience will also be a factor. Are you up for a long rebuild or want to see it on the street sooner than later? Keep Wraith's thoughts in mind.

Your ride looks to be in great shape. Not nearly as rough as mine. But that was last year. Here it is now....

[Jmac509]

Good looking paint jobs on that 84 retro25! Are you going to put the 83/84 nose back on or go with the 85 nose?

Just a quick update, I've started ordering parts. After researching more about the 4 vs 5 lug deal I ended up ordering OEM calipers pads and lines to get things rolling until I decide what I'm going to do about the rear end. That project will probably happen next winter. I'm going to go with all the maximum control arms and sub frame connectors. My goal is to try to get the engine running this weekend and try to and determine if the motor if I need to pull the motor. Right now I'm replacing all the rubber fuel lines and giving the carb a once over.

I'm researching what a good HCI combo would be. It sounds like the AFR 185's wont clear the oem pistons and I'm not really excited by the thought of notching them out. I'm considering the TFS 11R 190 56cc. Would the 190's be too big for street manners? Does anyone have a recommendation for an intake,cam and headers?

[4eyedfoxdriver]

I'm currently building a stock bottom end 302 with 190 11r heads. So imo no they aren't to big. But the cam must be matched better to keep it street friendly. I had Buddy Rawls do a custom cam for mine. I'm running a Motorsport intake made by Edelbrock, RPM Performer. If LT headers weren't such a pain I would run them, as it is I just run some shorty headers.

[retro25]

Jmac,

I am staying with the original nose. My ride is an 84 but built in Nov of 83, so I do not have the 84 fog lights typically expected. All those upgrades cost money as you will soon find out. I also stayed 4 lug, but I did throw a rebuilt 87 8.8 with 3.73's and upgraded the front brakes to oem v8 aero's.

For an intake I would suggest staying dual such as the stealth or performer (if this is primarily a street car). When considering headers you also have to decide on exhaust system. Shorties match up differently than LT's. As for your cam, pick that last after you are sure about what the rest of your internals will be. If you plan on going with the setup for some time I suggest Ed Curtis custom cams. He will grind one to fit your ride. But if you will make more mods in the near future, just something off the shelf then because you may be wanting to update your cam to match your other mods.

Here is my nose in primer.......

[Jmac509]

Just a quick update, I got the car in the garage on jack stands. I pulled the fuel tank is spotless. I'm planning on repainting it and replacing the vent valve and sending unit before reinstalling it. Do you have any recommendations on a protective coating I could put on the tank? Also the black pad on the top of the gas tank is old and cracking. I saw a few places sell replacements for more than I want to pay for a simple pad, do you have any suggestions for a cheaper replacement? I was thinking maybe a thin sheet of neoprene.

I dropped a battery in the tray, cleaned all the connections at the terminals and all the connections on the solenoid and hooked it up only to realize I have some electrical problems going on. The windshield wipers automatically started and wouldn't shut off. I pulled the fuse to get them stopped. I tried turning the key to see if it would crank over and nothing happened. no click no dimming of the interior lights, nothing. I tried jumping the solenoid to see if anything happened and again nothing. So I'm reading through some of the older posts on the forum to see if I can find a probable cause. My next step pending more research is to pull the starter and replace the solenoid. Any suggestions on wiring/electrical would be appreciated.

Retro25 that is going to be a sweet looking ride when your done. I wish my nose was in that good of shape. the I shaped pieces between my headlights are cracked and missing some pieces and I have small cracks around on it. After I get everything mechanically sound I want to turn my attention to the body work.

[erratic50]

Charge your battery

load test it

clean the battery posts

inspect the positive lead to solenoid

Make sure both ends of the battery cables are in great condition and tight.

Double check the condition and routing of your negative battery lead. If it's not in the stock location, move it!

I recommend adding a ground cable from block to core support or K member as the factory grounding straps do go bad sometimes.

Remove, clean under, then fully tighten the mounting bolts on the selinoid.

With key off and car in park or neutral Short across the big positive leads on the selinoid - does the starter engage? If so, short from battery positive to crank signal - does the selinoid and starter engaauge?

If not it's the selinoid.

If it does, I suspect the ignition switch is faulty.

good luck!

[ashley roachclip]

Have you tried to turn the engine by hand yet ?
15/16 socket on the crank shaft bolt and a breaker bar ,to make sure it will turn, clockwise of course .

[Trailer Trash Racer]

Welcome to FEP! I agree with everything Trey said.

- Maximum Motorsports full length subframes (although I'm looking into the LMR full lengths)
- LMR upper and lower torque box reinforcements are $100 for both
- I installed 87-93 spindles/brakes on mine. Bigger discs and it allows you to use 87-93 5.0 struts! Check craigslist for the front system, it's where I found mine.
- I would keep it 302 based for now. Intake, carb, exhaust will make it fun.

[Jmac509]

Just a quick update jumping the solenoid didn't work so I ordered a new solenoid and spool of 2 gauge wire to replace any suspect wiring. I think the negative wire is going to the factory location on the block but it doesn't have that star shaped washer. Is that washer important? Also just so I understand for a secondary ground I would run another wire from the factory ground on the front passager side of the block to the k member or radiator support? I'm just trying to get an idea where I would mount the new ground.

Also my solenoid bolts look pretty bad, does anyone know where I might be able to get some replacements? Otherwise I'm just going to check at the local hardware store.

[retro25]

Retro25 that is going to be a sweet looking ride when your done. I wish my nose was in that good of shape. the I shaped pieces between my headlights are cracked and missing some pieces and I have small cracks around on it. After I get everything mechanically sound I want to turn my attention to the body work.[/QUOTE]

Jmac, well from your pic your front end looks fine. I can assure you mine was pretty rough though my "driver bars" were in good shape. One of the biggest hassles was the holes drilled in the front end at the factory for the license plate holder. Filling the holes is easy but working/filling the waves in the trim was a real hassle. Hopefully you don't need a new front end like I did. Take a look at these pics....

[Jmac509]

I made some progress over the weekend. I got the electrical and gas tank all squared away (except for the wind shield wipers). I put fresh fuel in the tank and fresh oil in the motor and tried to start it. To my surprise the motor fired right up and idled fine. I didn't hear any sign of rod knock but there was some tapping that sounded like i might have a stuck lifter. I'm planning on tearing everything down this weekend. Before I pull the heads I'm going to do a compression test. I plan on inspecting the pistons and cylinder walls to see if anything looks suspect. If everything looks good I'll be ordering parts for H/C/I if not I'll pull the motor for a rebuild.

If the motor is good will the cast pistons be an issue with increasing the compression ratio?

[Walking-Tall]

You can look at the piston tops for signs of detonation pitting, etc., but not their thrust sides, skirts, rings, ring lands, but yes, a compression test will tell you about the compression rings' and valves' seal. Questionable/low psi dry compression test results can be further pinpointed with a wet test with some oil in the cylinders, where if psi increases, the piston rings aren't sealing well any more. I'd check the (actual (the factory gauge really doesn't tell us anything)) oil pressure while hot and idling, and pull the PCV valve and oil fill cap and see how much or if there's puffin' of blow-by (compression pressure getting past rings and into the crankcase) smoke while running. The results of those checks will tell you whether she's tired, and due for a rebuild, or not.

All sorts of pre-'72 vehicles had a 10+ to 1 compression ratio with cast pistons.

[Jmac509]

Awesome, I will check all of the above. Thanks for the advice!

[Jmac509]

So the compression readings were all around 145-150 and I thought everything was good then I pulled the heads off to discover this



The heads look good so I'm assuming the previous owner did this. I'm not sure what to do about this.

[xctasy]

Well there you go...what cylinder is it...just one like that.?
Could be Foreign Object Detection, Officer!

As long as the ring lands and bore are good, you just have to park the piston back at top dead center, apply some petroluem jelly or snow white petrolatum, and have the piston non destructive tested for cracks by die penetrate or by zyglo.

No cracks, then your good to go. If its just one cylinder. Detonation damage would show up differently.

[Jmac509]

Just that one piston is like that the rest look good it's #3. I will have to get some of that die and check for cracks. If the piston isn't cracked what does that mean for this bottom end? Is it still good to run like that?

[xctasy]

Yes, if its not detonation, it'll be fine.Even if it was, maybee. My beloved torched down my 84 250 Falcon six cyl cylinder head in 1996 ( wife was forced to drive an overheating car while I was away on businness), we cleaned up the moulton lumps from the alloy head, and welded it back up, and than thrashed it for another7 years

[Jmac509]

Just thought I'd update, I'm pretty sure this is the end of the road for this engine block.



Since I already have that 351 block and I'm looking for more horse power I think I'm going to get the 351 ready for the machine shop unless anyone has a good reason why I should stick with the 302. In my short research it seems like its cheaper to build more N/A horsepower out of the 351. In the event someone has a compelling reason to stick with the 302 my local wrecking yard does have a non running 302 roller block for $250 I could pick up to rebuild. I figured since I'm going to be looking mainly for motor rebuild and install advice I figured I would start a new thread.

[Capri-Magic]

Since I already have that 351 block and I'm looking for more horse power I think I'm going to get the 351 ready for the machine shop unless anyone has a good reason why I should stick with the 302. In my short research it seems like its cheaper to build more N/A horsepower out of the 351. In the event someone has a compelling reason to stick with the 302 my local wrecking yard does have a non running 302 roller block for $250 I could pick up to rebuild. I figured since I'm going to be looking mainly for motor rebuild and install advice I figured I would start a new thread.


I had that same choice once, and did the same thing. Used a 351 that I had rather than buying a good used 302. Long story short.. the car never saw the road. If you can get a good used 302 for $250 then do it and dont look back. You cant even put a 351 in a fox for $250. Theres the special oil pan, dipstick and tube, and pickup. Main stud. Little funny nut. Then special headers.. none of the accessory drive will fit right. Wires arent long enough.. Oh wait theres an extra dipstick and tube WTF am I going to do with that? Need another flywheel. Balancer is different. I have been there and done it. It is headache city. Totally not worth it.
If I had just put in a good running 302 in my car I would have been happy and had a running car, instead I had 7 years of non-movable yard art. After spending thousands of dollars tracking down every little thing needed, and still not having a working car. After that I swore Id never do another 351 swap.
If you have the budget and want to build a big displacement high horsepower unit, then thats a different story. By all means go for it. You'll have the extra dough to track down all kinds of little crap you dont even know you will need. But if your on a budget a 351 is a pointless waste of time money and effort. And a cobbed together 351 wont make any more power than a mildly warmed over 302 with parts that are readily available and work.

[mmb617]

If you're starting with a bare block then it won't cost anymore to build the 351 than it would the 302 but the 351 will be a lot more expensive in the long run due to all the parts you need to install it in one of our cars as outlined by Capri-Magic above. The extra expense will easily eclipse the $250 you pay for the 302 block. So if budget is the primary consideration then the 302 is the way to go.

The number one thing you have to decide is what you want from the motor. If you are looking for the maximum HP possible and are willing to pay the price then the bigger motor has more potential, especially NA. Stock for stock I don't see a 351 as having significantly more power than a 302, but the potential for more power at lower rpm is there with the bigger motor. It just takes an infusion of cash to reach that potential.

When I built my motor I was bracket racing regularly and wanted decent power without turning high rpm's as I felt that would be the key to longevity for the motor. In that case bigger is the way to go, so I built a 408, but it did cost a lot more than I thought it would.

[xctasy]

I disagree about the 351 W on a budget over a 5.0. That's because of the wrong advice, wrong parts, and the constant turing back on 26 years of hard core USdevelopment of this engine by Jack Roush that has verfied that the 1969 Shelby 351 W engine was the best darned 351 base to use, even given the 351 C 4v's abilty to make 500 hp at 7200 rpm with a stock block, rods and parts. Quite simply, a 351 W can do the same with the best alloy Alan Root Heads in 1990.

The big cubes gospel has been attenated by merchandisers who are selling stock better 351 W parts for 50% more than they are worth.

The issue is that the 351W is often speced out wrongly.

Its starts with wrong

1. intake manifold and fuel delivery kind. 4180 at a pinch, but better off with 4150 or AFB/TQ/ AVS/Q Jet 4Mx (The 4300/4350'S weren't ever properly developed, and suffer fuel starvation which is only able to be fixed by bleedback carb fuel routing ) ,

2. heads, then

3. cam, then

4. exhaust, then

5. pistons, then

6. gearing,

7. gearbox and

8. axle cost blow-out.
rate


There is one complete solution to 351W from Shelby's 69's version of the 4V version, and again, the Ligtening and SVT 351R. The landmark ages old US C9-OZ-6250-C cam, with Unsplit 290 I/290 E lobe cam,

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...7-Cam-for-351w

In most cases for a streeter, the cam you NEED is the actually the 1980 G Vin code 5.8 Panther cam, the E0OZ 6250-A cam,


This is actually the landmark 1972 SBF Marine cam D2JE 6250-BA cam ground on a wide 115 center. This was the cam that the 5.0 pre-release 1982 GT and RS 5.0 press cars were reported to have in the fall 1981 Dearborn proving ground Fox body Mustang and Capri cars. They down graded production cars to the D3OE-6250-AA to give better low end torque, the Lightening cam.

The marine cam is a real old design as per the Cobra Jet 428 cam...Confirming that the Marine cam is just the D2ZZ-6250-B 1972 351C Cobra Jet cam profile on a Windsor 351 master. Lift differences are the rocker arm differences of the Cleveland 1.73 verses the Windsors 1.6:1 nominal ratio. Its just the same.
270 intake /290 exhaust duration,
hydraulic,
and 206/221 duration at 50 thou lift,
and 443 and 453 lift,
115 lobe

EFI is still cost exclusive, port or throttle body. The 780 4bbl 3310 or 750 DP are standout performers, and so are the adaptors that allow good 5.0 4bbl manifolds allow great 351w Performance. All suppliers of GOOD performance level 351W intakes, exhausts headers and sumps and stout T5's are cost plus 50% margin like old 351C parts producers were, and still are.


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...a-small-catch)
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-351w-question
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...dvice-opinions

Smart purchases for 351W's are A/C, power steering and air pump kits. If you want serpentine, you'll just have to do the reaearch and make your own from a 5.0 and 5.8 truck.

The totally unpublicized 351W to 5.0 intake flitch plates from Price Motor Sport are the gateway to less cost intakes. http://www.pricemotorsport.com/







Block stud gridles



Upper block tie in stays



flat tappet cams with less than 300 pounds nose load that survive modern oils

and 351 clearing shotrie headers.



Its the same old crud....like the aftermarket cant see that simple high flowing killer bits work even better on a 351w than a 5.0.

Then people follow the wrong advice....


Pistons, Ford Australia spent 3 years with ProDrive re checking 14 candiate pistons for its last 335 hp 2002 "347" fuelie engine... non forged, short deck Mahale ACL hypereuctict pistons which on 351W fit a dopey set of 351M conrods....SPS in the US make an excellent copy of it.

For gearboxes, knowing that there is too much flex in a T5 case and how to avoid busting it, or getting a rebuilt AOD without over spending

For axle care, a good poor man 3 link 9 inch. Or a purlioned Dana 8.5" 44 axle with a Jana K4, or Dana 50 8.9" crown and pinion upgrade.

For body care good welded in sub frame connectors.

For me, the Windsor 351 block was a 351C beater form Job 1....too many people shy away from following a start small hop scotch way to a full rebuild of a 351W.

The evidences from endurance racing lovers was that the 351 W was a knobbled race horse, completely screwed over by the Ford performance world and those who got enamored by the romatic, fanatic love towards the 4V 351 Clevelands.


The Wubble Ywe engine is so plentiful, the Fox so light, and the LS Chevy engine a straight copy in aluminum. For me its about doing what you can not to break the engine, or the bank, and leaving every stock part on it, and changing as little as possiable in minimal distrubence manner.