Cleveland Engine Swap

[RobboTheGreg]

Hi all. I was looking for a thread dedicated to Cleveland engine swaps.
I wasn't able to find any threads, does someone know if there is already one active? if so could you please reply with link.

I have a 79 Hatch that I am currently in the process of converting from 302W C4 to 351C T5.
Would be nice to see how other people have gone about it and what issues faced.

Thank you!

[xctasy]

Not recently,


I couldn't find the red 83 Mustang 351C with 82GT2V air cleaner


Or the Yellow Boss 351 1984 Mustang.


but try this for size...

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...North-Carolina

It's a 351 Cleveland bored 30 over (357). With flat top hypertonic pistons, 750 Holley double pumper, c4 tranny, and 4.56 gears out back turning 28-10.5/15 M/T slicks . Gutted and 8 point cage.

mercrs , 1981 Capri RS (351C) http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?2891-mercrs

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-check-back-in

I don't really post here, but I've been popping in here every now and then to look for answers to questions, figured you guys would like to see our latest pass with the stang.

She's a 1985 Fox body, we bought it with a 351 cleveland, c4 (trans brake, 5000 stall, manual valve body, air powered cheetah shifter), it still has the 4-lug rear, 35 spline axles, spool, stock-style suspension. It had a set of ported boss 302 heads on it, but we bought some aussie AFD aluminum heads and a parker funnel web manifold, 1000 cfm holley. Then we changed the cam, springs, and rockers. I drove it with that combo 10.49, dad drove it the next weekend and the motor came apart (floated the valves, lost a piston, fired a rod through the oil pan).

We had bought a block earlier that was hard-filled, bored 30 over, and had a lot of other machine work done on it. We filled it with an eagle forged rotating assembly, internally balanced, i-beams, flat-tops, it's a stroker kit to take it from a 351 to a now 408 cleveland small block. Still has the aussie heads and manifold (thank goodness the heads weren't ruined when we lost a piston). We did manage to bend every intake valve in them when the old 351 died, so now it has manley back-cut valves to save some weight and get even more flow. Compression is about 13.1:1.

Tires are a set of really old 26" hoosier wrinkle walls, hard and out of rubber. Gears are 4.10's. Shifting a little under 7k with the new stroker. It needs some 28 or 29 inch tires to get it down the track, hopefully a 10.5 will fit so we can come out harder.

Long blabbering aside, we're hoping to get 9's on the motor, and we built it for a heavy nitrous system.




Old engine runs




Video:
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/l...ustang1038.flv

Last time I checked in:
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=68274

400 Ford

Here"s an update... it seems to take way more time than it should to get things to come together.

Here is the engine in it's current state. I have the accessories installed, the broken exhaust bolt taken care of and am currently finishing the mods to the k-member.



I used the power steering bracket from my 3.8 and a custom made bracket with an idler pulley for the power steering.



The alternator is a 3G which I enlarged the mount hole and a custom bracket for tension adjustment.



The crank pulley and the water pump were generously donated by a 5.0L Lincoln.

To complete the mods to the 96 k-member, I trimmed about 1/2" from the aft end of the k-member and need to expand the slots to match up with the earlier k-members.

[xctasy]

Easy engine swaps with Canton 8 quart external dipstick sump.

Engine mounts the same

You can drop the k member down from the body via spacers to get more engine room.

Serpentine belt drive from the net using common US parts.

https://www.motorator.com/blog/ford/.../#.WNijQBKvQgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mh_DW84qg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mh_DW84qg&t=203s

The Red 83 with 351C I cant find has 5.0 GT/RS 2V air cleaner ex 1982 to fit.

Information exists on that, due to engine height taking the back of the air cleaner further back to the firewall than in the more common 429/460 and the esier but more rare 390/428 FE engine swaps.

[xctasy]

Now I can wish you a happy stay.

Welcome RobboTheGreg.Nice to see an Aussie looking after the most improved Mustang with what must be Fords most sucessfull 100% Ford made production endurance engine. No Cosworth, no Shelby, no Hart block or works homologation parts asside from a four bolt block and some roller rockers in the last years.

The Fox is a TE Cortina like in size, track, stud pattern, steering, lower coil springs, and shares transmissions and similar brake parts, but it has Torana Hatch tyle hood length and latent strength. And as soon as the Bent Eight goes in, its all character and it has throughbread chassis potential. Bump steer and steering lightness fall away when you amp up the wheel size to the legal 16 x 7 SVO style wheels with the earlier offsets to keep track within an inch. A Cortina has no wheel arch accomodation; the Mustang is like an XA Coupe. Jack Talnack did the XR Falcon when Jac Nasser was at Ford in the mid sixtiees. The whole idea of a big two door Cortina or Taunus with a fastback Hatch profile works, The dodgem bumpers and endura stle RS 2000 nose works on it; its Mad Max and motor show special designed by Peter Arcadipanes Torana Recaro Mystere in a gene splicer.

A Cleveland makes it a total supercar with A9X dynamics and Phase IV grunt. Imagine it down Conrod at 200 mph instead of 155. The Fox Stang is really slick and small, yet can hide that engine in its strangly narrow, expansive gaurded nose.


2ksteeda had the red Mustang with the 351C and 2v 5.0 gt air cleaner and it was an 85 Coupe. It got a 393 stroker crank in about 2011

Just saw this thread. I have a 71 351c with closed chamber 4v heads in my 85 coupe. It has a 393 stroker kit, hyd roller cam, torker 351 intake and 830 annular carb. It runs very strong and has plenty of torque. I'm using a stock k-member with 1/4 spacers under each engine mount for header clearance (heddman 4v swap headers). I am eventually going to use a tubular k-member so I can lose the 1/4 spacers hopefully. Hood clearance is tight, I run a cowl hood on mine. Trans is a tremec tko600 with centerforce flywheel and dual friction clutch (28oz imbalance). I had to fab my own midpipe for the exhaust but it was pretty straight forward. For engine accessory brackets you will have some decisions to make. I fab'd my own so I could use fox ac, ps and alternator. Aftermarket serpentine setups are available but $$$. Get a good radiator and fan setup (I'm using an alum rad and Mark VIII fan). If you have any questions let me know!....



Yea, if the heads are open chamber 2v then you would probably be better off using different ones. That $ and the headers / oil pan makes it a costly swap. I was in the same boat, had the engine and wanted something different. Now that its done I can say it beats any other windsor motor car I've own or ridden in. If I didn't have the motor than I probably would have gone for a coyote swap (different kind of cool, new and refined vs old brute force) The aftermarket for the cleveland is very much alive and there are new blocks being cast by a few aftermarket vendors (actual 9.2 deck cleveland blocks). Also there are several sets of heads available and a fuel injected intake was recently released. Things like pistons, rods, cams, etc are also plentiful.

I had all of my engine pics hosted and now I can't find them so I'll try to fix that and post some pictures of the engine going together. There are a few pics of it installed in this thread:

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...=103349&page=4

This the link.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...Jan09-to-Jul09

No log of photos list any longer.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...02#post1757502

I used this to make a custom cold air system for my car. I built a new engine with a taller intake manifold and this no longer fits under the hood so I need to sell it. I can sell just the air cleaner or with the hoses too if someone is interested. The hoses are 4" ID hose and the attachment to the air cleaner was fabricated out of sheet metal and is no longer stock. The emissions connections were all welded shut as well and painted gloss black with a polished lid and a new decal. I have a spare decal i'll include with the sale. It also comes with a K&N filter element. It is not 100% perfect but it worked great on my holley carb. It may have a few nicks and scratches from being in storage. I would like to get $100 for just the air cleaner itself, plus shipping. Located in Fredericksburg.

Gorgeous coupe indeed!!

And page 4 hows some photos!

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...int-pics/page4

[erratic50]

Let's be open on this - there are a lot of advantages to Cleveland heads. But there are few advantages to a Cleveland compared to a 9.5" deck height Windsor. There are lots of articles on building a "clevor" out there. Build a big inch Windsor stroker and put on Cleveland heads (of course addressing the water passages) and the resulting engine will absolutely rock.

I don't see a lot of advantages of the Cleveland block over the Windsor if big inch and big power is the goal. There are more cubes to be found in the Windsor.

[xctasy]

Oh, I'm betwixt!


(As a lover of Clevelands for there character, and Windsors for there reliability, an AVECO style Boss 302 engine with A3/Yates heads, a stroker crank, and 4-1/8" siamesed block with AVESCO side throttle EFI would be my pick. 363 cubic inches, and 5.4" rods....)

Exhibit A...


FORD (Prodrive)

ENGINE

Prodrive developed, 5.0 litre V8 Ford with SVO cylinder iron block and aluminium heads.

Category control MoTeC engine management control system

KEY FACTS

Power: 635+ BHP

Torque: 479 lb-ft

Engine limit: 7,450rpm

0-60 mph 3.4 seconds

Top Speed: 185 mph+ in a 24 sq ft frontal area Falcon with a 0.32 drag factor


Adding capacity to 5.95 liters, we might get 775 hp, 570 lb-ft and, in a Mustang with only 20 sq feet of frontal area, 200 mph with ease.



My first ride was in my mate Blairs rebuild 351C in a Falcon. The engine is a 569 pound ballistic missle, with H-E-A-PS more vibration and urge than the 1969 Shelby based 351 W Falcon. Its like comparing Stanley Ibcus to the Mask. Its only been the tremedus efforts of the last 36 years that has given the Windsor 347 stroker or 351 to 408 plus engines any edge at all...that edge comes from aftermarket block strength and not peak power. The canted valve heads still reign supreme...

Exhibit B


Maybe a milder 550 hp carb or FITECH engine with low end torque...

[erratic50]

There are a few write ups in Muscle Mustangs and fast ford from around 2006 where 351C was put in an 85 Mustang. Dual snorkel was retained to help make it less obvious that it was modded.

A T5 won't live long behind a Cleveland unless you have a very soft clutch and low gears and a big traction problem that results in lots of tire burn but no hop.

[xctasy]

The reason for component breakage in the Cleveland is detonation threashold, the main reason Ford Dearborn killed the Cleveland. It gave too many negatives in large displacement engines. Added to it is an only averagely strong, thin wall cast block. The torque curve robs from the sub 2800 rpm era, and then gains above 2800 rpm, not what you want in a street engine.

The decision to XPD the Cleveland as a production engine was probably the outputs resulting from two extensive, and expensive, 1970's programs, the Stratified Charge 4 cylinder and the second, the V8 Fuel Injected PROCO engines. They had inputs from Cosworth Engineering at taht time as well. When asked what improvements Kenneth Duckworth would make to the canted valve engines, he said. "Cast arrows in the intake ports, so the air knows which way to go..."

The Stratified Charge 4 cylinder Ford/Honda co-operation in the 70's begat only the Australian X-flow 6 cylinder head, a canted valve Cleveland based head, which predominatly sat on a long stroke Honda style engine, but with an extra two cylinders, the venerable 250 X-flow six. It was made in aluminum, and yielded a massive 13% saving in fuel use over the older low mixture motion iron Ford x-flow head.


An extra 3-1/4 MPG gain at 55 to 62 mph for the 1980 XD -1/2 Falcon and TF Cortina.


Basically, Honda helped Ford prove the future was in long stroke, small bore engines with good mixture motion. Even that 1980 onwards engine was detonation prone, a signature of all canted valve engines. Honda cast the heads from Aussie ignots for those engines for years, but it was based on the Ford/Honda four cylinder stratified charge engine, and when Ford USA found they couldn't meet the cost verses emissions advantages with the Stratified charge Falcon 6 based 4 cylinder design, it just decided to rationalise its engines, and develop the existing engines with potential. The PROCO injection engine showed some promise, but again, it missed the critical targets Ford had.

The canted valve 335 engines had no emissions era potential, and since they failed to amortise the costs (sales of less than a million units by 1973), soooo, they just boxed up the tooling, shoved it on a ship to Australia, and downgraded the 400 and 351M line for eventual demise.

The Cleveland "science" is the same as


1. the Chrysler Hemi's of all types,

2. the Chrylser Polyspheric 313/318
3. Porcupine Head Chevy Big Block,
4. probably the Boss 429 semi Hemi.

Fords development engineers really flattened the valve angles angles out, made its heads really flow well, without the Tunnel Port problems of non venturi flow. Mixture motion wise, its a liitle bit stagnant compared to the best Windsors, but in terms of the lift window, they are excellent. Flow benches don't meassure detonation and rough combustion, the Achillies Heal of those four listed enginges, with the Cleveland the 5th, and worst of the lot.

When Chrysler created the 273/318/340/360 LA engines, they proved to Ford that perhaps a focus soley on flow rates wasn't the answer. When the Six Pack used the NASCAR 366 Cleveland projects induction package, the writing looked like it was on the wall for the 351C.


In pro stock, the 340 was unmatchable, despite its technically inferior in line valve design, downgraded from the earlier 313/318 canted valkve engine. With the dreggs of the Holley 6bbl , the 340 was in everyway the match for the bigger Boss 351c

Compared to the 1969 351w 4V , all that extra 1971 351C 4V power comes from the canted valve induction process. The torque curve in a typical 351 2V or 4V Cleveland has a traditional torque spike at about 2800 rpm, air flow is stagnant below that, but the gains above are significant, and then the whole engine yields constant improvements over the in-line valve Windsor engines if they are on matched engines.

Racer Kevin Bartlett and engine development engineer Bill Santuccione from Australia noted the constant problems with bearings, rods and cranks were actually the Clevelands stratospheric compression induced rough combustion event detonation, not any real problem with the recipricating parts. Sort of the same thing that made 426 Hemis, CVH Escorts and Lima 2300 engines so unable to deal with regular pump gas.


That extra Cleveland power doesnt come for free. In the sudden 1972 US 83 to 87 octane world, all 351C's and 351 M's and 400 Fords had major issues dealing with it, and a deap, power and torque ruining reduction in compression was how it was dealt with. In Australia, a constant supply of leaded 97 octane resulted in 8.9 to 9.4:1 compression ratios from 1972 to 1985 (the last year in the Aussie F100/Bronco and rest of World Auusie supplied, Swiss rebuilt De Tomaso Panetra and Longchamps/Deuville engines).

In a US setting, the Windsor is a smooth engine that doesn't pig root and take out transmissions like all Clevelands can. Thats one of the reasons Ford Australia always loaded the engine up with close ratio 4 speeds , 2.42:1 first gears and 3.5, 3.25 or 3:1 axle ratios. If it was run with wide ratio transmissions, it would have taken out its heavy valve gear. Even with 715, 750 or 800 cfm of 4-bbl Autolite, Motorcraft or Carter Thermoquad TQ9800 carburation, the Aussie hydraulic cam Cleveland 302 and 351's engines were very under timed, and ran out at 5200 rpm tops, to avoid the Big Bang.


A roller cam Windsor 5.0 runs to the 6250 rpm fuel cutout. Its the cagy animal aspect of the Cleveland that creates a wave of destruction. On the mid to late 70's stratified charge project Ford and Honda together did some extensive octane and mixture motion development work, and found the octane senstivity of in line valve Windsor and in line four and six derived heads was much less than the canted valve CVH/Lim and 335 engines. So they couldn't axe the 351c, 351M and 400 Ford soon enough. Replacement Variable Venturi, CFI, 4-BBL and Port EFI 5.0 and 5.8 engines were simply better suited to 8.4 to 9.2:1 compession ratios on pump 87 and 91.


All the development Cleveland era hydraulic lifter cam profiles were used, and transferred over in a new roller cam format, and suddenly, the Windsor produced Cleveland power levels with reduced component damage, 13% better fuel economy, and when thinwall cast down to eggshell thin 130 thou bore castings, they didn't crack and split cylinder walls like the Clevelands did.



Remeber, the GT40P engines were a re-set back to the performance of the factory 1968 230 hp 302 J code and 290 hp 351W H code 4V Windsor engines. (Techniucally an M code engine, but the Aussie version in the Phase I GT had 300 hp and a Shelby intake and carb) As soon as the Cleveland came out, all Windsors got detuned for the next 10 years from late 1969 to 1979. The G code 351 LTD engine used a Cobra Jet cam profile for 1980, and suddenly, performance was back on the agenda. in 1982-1983, the 351m was being killed off, dead, so what happened?


The 157, 175 hp 5.0 options, the trucks got 4-bbl 351 options, CFI's went to 180 hp, and so on. The Cleveland engines were just a huge stop bit to Windsor engine development.


See http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...eplica-I-built

well im thinking a 351/408 it has a C4 now but i might convert to a 5spd.

[xctasy]

Since your Australian, you should put SS bages on it, my, that would wind up the Commodre SS crowd....and rework the air cleaner with 5.8 Litre instead of 5.0 Liter.

Care of 82GT5.0


Are you gonna put Aluminium or Aluminium heads on it? AL minimum order, two heads.

Enjoy the discovery.



Deano from Moo Zealand...

[erratic50]

The Clevelands definitely did not forgive for bad fuel, but if you got the cam timing and profile right and knew the ways to massage the intake ports like the Aussies did boy those damn things would run. You certainly never ever saw any windsors turning north of 10K back in the day but the guys with deep pockets certainly did that with the Clevelands routinely.

Of course when you look at the intake CFM flow numbers and realize that ported they could flow north of 300 CFM its no wonder. Hell, a 230 CFM head on a 302 with an aggressive street/strip cam is capable of somewhere around 8700 if the bottom end will stand up to it. Intake air flow definitely wasn't the problem - lack of any real port velocity was the obstacle those heads created so of course they tended to detonate.

But in some ways you also haven't lived until your get into the 5 point harness in the seat of a low 8 second pro street 68 mustang fastback then drop a sick 60 foot with hoops in the air on the way to another 180+ mph ala N/A big inch hit at high R's behind Cleveland heads. The rotating assembly Cleveland vs Windsor wasn't the difference maker that those heads bolted to a stroker were. Those setups were a snotty running thing, that's for sure.

[Walking-Tall]

Not a bad idea to research the oiling system upgrades that those in-the-know have done in the past with them as well.

[erratic50]

Totally agree! Poor oiling equals BOOM

[RobboTheGreg]

Wow, Thanks for the replies! I love driving my Fox around australia, no one knows what it is. I've had people call it a torana, scorpion and I even had someone call it a transam!! I'ts amazing that they are not well known here.
I have had to do this swap on a bit of a budget, I have a good 351C block and crank that needs to be built but I have had a few issues so that build has to be put off for a while. So I have a running 302C that I am fitting in in the mean time so when the 351 is eventually ready I can do the change with most of the problems fixed.
Most will hate to see this but my fox has been converted to RH drive so I have to get custom headers made up and the brake booster was a bit of an issue. but the engine is in and I just have a few other bits and pieces to fix up. The main things left are exhaust, sump and clutch.
I have made up a new pedal box with a hydraulic clutch master cylinder. just need to run the hyd lines and fit a clutch.
The T5 is out of a Aussie EF falcon. the cross member mounting point was a little too far fwd so a new cross member had to be made. tail shaft lines up perfectly though.
My sump is on its way, so hopefully that will fit considering the RH drive conversion, the steering rack is not standard and looks like it is tucked in enough to clear but wont know for sure until I fit it.

I better get back to work, here is a few photos of her. Remember that is is a dirty old runnig 302C just for fitting, dont mind the condition of her..

[RobboTheGreg]

[RobboTheGreg]

[RobboTheGreg]

xctasy - Thankyou for all your content, I have slowly been clicking through all the links, reading up on everything.
Like I said, I have had a bit of a spanner thrown in the works with regards to money so the build is going to take some time now but I am very keen to get her back on the road asap. I know there is very little, if any advantage going to cleveland but I just love their character. I love the sound of a Clevo.

Don't mind the mess in the photos, it is a work in progress and will look nice and tidy one day.

On a different note, how rare is the 79 indy car / 80 cobra front bumper? I would love to get hold of one but obviously quite expensive to source and ship to Australia. Just curious how rare they are.

Thanks!

[xctasy]

Don't worry too much about the money, the basics are very easy.


Just in case you missed anthing, I'm sure you've red page 51 of Hot Rod May 1988 in post #5 and #6 here

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...yl-to-351-swap

The good thing is the very frustrating information blockade against the 302C and 351c engines is gone.


The company that denied the existance of the Phase IV GTHO, called every 4-bbl 351 GT engine a 300 hp gross item no matter if it was an XW Phase II with 310 degree cam, or a 256 degree 1975 Falcon with 2V heads could also revised down the power readings of the 4.1 carb from 105 kW to 98 kW at press time; then supply NASCAR engine blocks and 2V closed chamber cylinder heads to SVO USA up untill 1988, or whole engines to De Tomaso till 1989. With Ford Australia, the public was treated with information contempt. Even the drag figures for the XD Falcon tests done by Lockhead in Georgia under the Australian budget were emargoed, and never to be discuused.

Its taken 35 years since the Aussie Geelong foundary Clevland was deep sixes to mortal death; from that time, the true technical has slowly started to flow on Aussie C engines set up and how they differerd from the US cars

with
the Aussies cars Chrysler origion carb,
German Bosch Ignition,
Aussie profile 57 cc Closed Chamber
75 cc Open Chamber 2V heads with wacked out 4-bbl TQ intake
Its constant high 8.9 to 9.4:1 factory compression specs
Very mild and retard inducing fiber cam gears with 256 degree intake lobe durastion camshaft.

It is an engine that responds to a cam change, header, intake and port work like no other engine ever made.

The so called stock dual exhaust 72 302c 2V with base 2-bbl made 156 to 163 hp net by my calculations based on Bowel Nagari and XB Fairmont accleration figures, , yet it was rated 240 hp gross, or 230 hp with a single pipe.

The factory Aussie blueprinted QC 300 degree solid lifter 780 CFM 4-BBL 4V Phase III dynoed at 350 hp by Mick Webb, not 345 hp as claimed esleware.

The Phase IV gained another reputed 30 hp at the very least. Whatever, if 380 hp or a true 400, thats 2.5 times the power from the same kind of block. Rember, the GTHO's techbically used the same block as the 302 2V, but they got swapped out under the Ford Special Vehicles preperation hub.

Its just a tinder box engine, one that can be setb alight with the right bits, its simply the most Rusty Cage shaking Ford engine ever, like a mini 429 Super Cobra jet or 427 Side Oiler, but straight of the production low ball 302 C 2V tooling.


The Cleveland engines hard dimensions in a RHD format mean you have to snaffle some stock 72DA to 1980 Falcon iron headers and a Cortina TE /TF power steering box. They have a casting and downpipe kick to clear the RHD recirculating design steering and low mount starter.

In formation from one impecable NZ source....the kick creates a minor back pressure issue which with the earlier 302c's and 351C's caused common over heating problems that took a long time to trace. Its a good header, just restrictive on the RHS compared to the stock US LHS header.

I got that from a Timaru Service technican, who used to work with the likes of Kiwi Charger and Falcon XD sedan racer Leo Leonard.

The right 4-bbl Carter 4.9 engine with Bosch Duraspark, was still in 1979 a verile, yet smooth and enjoyable engine that out did the Commodore pre XT5 308 auto, with a C10 trans, acceleration was 16.9 second 1/4's at a stunning 87 mph, 118 mph top speeds in a 3163 pound 1979 Fairmont.


There is every evidence that the Press VIC XD 002 plated Wedgerwood XD Ford Farmont 4.9 car that ran those figures was 100% standard. The later 1982 LTD used in one Modern Motor Statesman Caprice comparison was purposley hobbled down to an 18.8 second 1/4 mile, and it was only 290 pound heavier. Why? The EFI only, Six cylinder only XE revision was just around the corner, and the 5.8 was stockpiled, so a 216 hp 4400 pound Aussie XLT 5.8 Bronco doing a 17.9 second quarter mile was obviously hidding something if a 188 hp car with 1000 pound less couldn't beet its bigger brother.


Ford did the same thing to the turbo XD 4.1 ESP previewd in 1982. Before work done by Ford service men, it could do 136 mph, a 14.9 sec 1/4 mile. After, it was slow and lathargic.

No disrepect to Ford Australia, it had to tow the party line, and Ford prefered to get sales from Government departments and Queensland sales, rather than creating a new Super Car Scare.


You can even use the Cortina unassisted 4 turns lock to lock steering.


The Mustang steering box came out in the 1978 Pinto and Mustang II and 1977 Aussie Ford Cortina TE 6 cyl 3.3/4.1. It just had different bushes to the cross member and rag joint on the Pinto/Mustang II. The RHD Aussie Cortina steering rack was therefore just a mirror image Fox Fairmont/ Zephyr/Mustang/Capri/ Tbird/Cougar. The changes to the Aussie suspension to support the cross flow six was essentially a Pinto/ Mustang II/ Fox frame lower suspension member, with similar brakes at the front.


The 1980 Round Australia Cortina even used upper mounted dampers



just like the Falcon based X cars and much like the Fox Mustang.




One Arthur E Bishop made it happen from a variation of the early British Granada CAMgEARS/ Adwest/Burman rack.



RHD swaps are time consuming, but not expensive or hard .

For the steering box, easy. A Hyundai Stella, Mark V "80" Cortina 2.3 V6 and all the Capri (Mk iii Ghia/ GXL/ S, Tickford, 2.8 Injection etc)/ Sierra/ Granada had it . The Australian Arthur Ernest Bishop mastered the dynamics, patents, and production delivery of ALMOST every Ford and GM steering box in the 70's.

Like everyone who did it Right with Ford parts, Ausfox uses the Cortina 77-80 TE/ 80-82 TF TRW steering box like Ford UK did on its 18 RHD conversions.

So did Tickford Prodrive on the 200 odd RHD Mustang Cobra coupe and convertables in the Noughties. Despie this statement on the dynamics of the stock Aussie Corina Six power steering gear, the Fox power steering unit was exceptionally good, and the Cortina unit is just a handed Fox Mustang rack. 100% mirror image with 77TE Aussie Ford part numbers.


The Australian Commodore used basically the same basic internal TRW rack with major mounting variations;

in the UK some aftermarket RHD swaps used what people tended to call it the Opel Manta rack, but its actually the 1978 power steering Chev Chevette rack, a GM T car steering unit


In late 70's, the Aussies used it on about three different cars because the Ford and GM knew that it would soon carry the Bishop Kirby variable ratio patent, and the Americans copied it from the World First Holden Camira 1981 J car and then the 1986 VL Commodore.

Same thing happened back in 1970 when the Mustang, 1970 Camaro/Firebird, 1971 HQ Statesman and then the 1972 Australian Falcon ALL used a Bishops Kirby recirculating ball steering box.

Hi Tubbs, would probably think that there were no Factory Manufactured Right Hand Drive cars made for the UK or any where else.

Have been looking for Ford RHD Mustang info for about 20 years and have come to the conclusion that the only Manufacturer involved RHD Mustangs were the 120 or so 2001/2 Tickford Cobras from Ford Australia.

Over the years, you could Special Order a Mustang from an Australian Ford dealer and car would be imported by Ford Australia but the Conversion to right hand drive would be done by a local Converter.

This was before there were Safety Rules and Regulations and Government Standards.

I used to work for a good friend of mine who did many Mustangs (66 to 73)that ended up being sold with Ford Australia ID Plates on them.

Would probably think there was a similar system in the UK, due to the high costs of retooling to RHD for such a limited market. Only about 300 cars are known to have been sold here this way.

Ford Australia are supposed to have built a RHD Four eye in the late seventies when they used this design to develop the XD Falcon, but is believed to have been crushed.

Two Pics of local RHD dashes on cars currently listed for sale.

Cheers from Australia
Former Resident of Gosport Hants and Bishopton Scotland.

Ausfox's profile http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?10313-Ausfox

PON13 has this Burn Notice Ford Australian Import development hack in RHD form.

Like the strangley ADP VH Commodore SS and Adayer Sportif like 3 or 4 USA 1979 Mustang Daytona's that the late Roger Ferns saved,

Copied by Leo Prenau at Holden, and DIA Moirs in Clayton







or the Phase IV Falcons, the Aussie EA 351GT, and pre production pilot built Dec 1987 EA 26 Falcons, each should have been destroyed and tile not released for a car that doesn't meet Design Rules. Thankfully, having
Federal Motor Vehicle compliance, and four stud Cortina hubs and Cortins steering gear, any Fox is a cinch to register RHD.

And the steering box...mirror image with a 1977 minting date cast on the aluminium rack

I've got the old English BurmanCortina 80 (so called MkV, but really a RHD Taunus TF) with powered rack and pinion, the useless clamped mounts. CamGears made the non assisted versions in England.

Adwest made Jaguar, Aston Martin, Jensen Interceptor/ FF used a similar powered rack and pinion system, which was also made by Burman and Lockheed under licence.

So did Hyundai, who used it from Burman for the the repulsive Cortina based Hyudnai Stella.

The British Leyland SDI and TR8 Triumph Burman sytem is similar, the Cortina Mk IV/Cortina 80(so called Mk v) and Granada MkII systems are similar to the Australian TE/TF Cortina, but the difference is that RHD Aussie system uses the 100% robust bolted TRW Pinto/Mustang II/Fox mountings.



Compared to the 1979 TRW rack on at the junkyards Mustang...its just a handed version of it.





The later Capri, Sierra, Granada Mk III/Scorpio Mekur, had similar internals, different casting, mountings, and tie/track rods.

They all run Jaguar style torsion bars, 0.19, 0.210, 0.235, 0.250".

The Aussie one was essentially the only RHD version of the US Fox body power rack and pinion steering.

For internal parts, they are the same, the external alloy casting or presses steel Locheed type, you can get them if you network. Of course, Fords UK wing Tickford did the Mustang Cobra RHD swap,

so FEP's Townsville Australia man Ausfox http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?10313-Ausfox


would likely be the best person to contact.


They were really common P/S swaps for those old hot rod Holdens, the L34, SLR 5000 or SS5.0 or A9X 308 Holden Torana's, but these days, you can easily find a RHD Subaru Forester rack and convert it, but it uses the inferior clamped center section.


TRW did all the production engineering for the US steering from the English development work, and also made p/s units for the GM T cars, which you find on the net all the time.

eg TRW 15713R Steering Rack And Pinion (With Power Steering).

[RobboTheGreg]

You know your stuff about the aussie cars. How do you remember all those figures! My fox was apparrntly converted in South Australia using a imported from UK front half fox. The steering rack is supposed to be oout of a xk jag. I have some cast headers that almost fit lh has heaps of space but rh fouls on the steering rod. I could probably grind down the rh cast header to make it fit but i think its too close than I'm comfotable with. I will have to look into the cortina steering. Probably easier to just get some custom made headers.
I'll see if i can get a photo of the rack to see if anyone knows what it is. Planning on getting stuck into it this weekend.
Appretiate all the info and help. I will try to keep posting photo's of the progress.. how ever slow it may be!

[xctasy]

Your steering is the Adwest system used for the Jensen Interceptor, Aston Martin DBS V8, XK-E/ E type Jag. The early Granada's, European Cortina V6's and Jag system was the same basic steering rack.

Then it got outsourced to CamGears or Burman. Basically, inside, everything was the same, but there are specific, generic internal and external differences. Housing was generally tube steel on them.


Any issues with it, don't stress it, and keep what you have.


The steering has a lot of power assist, with a small diameter torsion bar.


This info from Bryan Rusbatch, a former Dunedin Suspension specailist. His former business associate/ partner Dennis confirmed that the Jaguar power steering rack of its various kinds is 100% servicable, and we just talked together over this for 15 minutes or so at 1455 hrs today. Phone Number 64 456 1441, Multipspares, http://www.multispares.co.nz/steering.php

just down the road from the Truck delivery/Distribution GWF Tip Top, the outfit where I work delivering.

The low production rate through Ford AVO and then SVE made rhd conversions for the US Lincoln Mark and Mustang uneconomic, but Ford UK were able to source various English steering racks, and set up the postioning of any type to avoid bump steer. So there were probably about four generic kinds of rack Ford used to get the steering to function, and the 2.3 and 2.8 and 3.3 engines were what they used; not sure if any 5.0 or 4.2 V8's were RHD converted.


If your system uses the last RHD system that Ford Special Vehicle Engineering devised, then it will be well engineered, and just needs servicing for seals, and a quick check done for bunp steer using a dial gauge on the wheel rim.

[xctasy]

Hey just a quick note below.

.......Probably easier to just get some custom made headers.
I'll see if i can get a photo of the rack to see if anyone knows what it is. Planning on getting stuck into it this weekend.
Appretiate all the info and help. I will try to keep posting photo's of the progress.. how ever slow it may be!

Yup.....

Option 0. Is just a reworked set of headers. If you can weld, then its a set of short or long tubes based on some off the shelf Genie or HM's with the same kind of mods Zap's 85 GT did to his in his Aussie 351c engined 73 March Mustang

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...n-my-73-Mach-1

After getting the engine installed I had to modify my drivers side header to clear the z-bar/clutch linkage. These headers were obviously only intended to be used in an automatic transmission application. They were a very good price for stainless so I took the gamble that it would be something I would run into and be able to remedy. I bought myself an Everlast TIG welder and having my first go at it being with stainless steel was pretty ballsy. I purchased a header flange to bolt the primary tubes to before I started dissecting what I needed to in order to perform the modifications. It turned out pretty darn well if I do say so myself. The hardest part was having to cut the collector off and weld it back on. Stainless is tough stuff to work with.

Like brianj's post below, this site has unmatched access to the right data to help reduce costs.




I revised the post because I realised that Ford UK did the RHD enginering late in 1978 .



Option 1.

If your stuck, there is a small top 1979 onwards Jag power steering coupling which might buy you some space without having to reowrk your cast iron header tube. The one you have should be of that type, but you never now, because the RHD conversion was designed in 1978, and since there were no RHD 2.8's, only 2.3's and 3.3's, then Ford Special Vehicles could have used the deep tall top steering rack.



Option 2.

Down here, when doing Hot Rod A's, T's and 32's, most Kiwi rooders with Fat Rat engines use the US import Borgeson Double Knuckle Steering Shaft which also fits Fox Ford Mustangs 1979-1993 #000655.



Most of the US guys use Mustang II based IFS, which use the Fox steering rack. So there is most times an off the shelf option.

Yeah its all money, but your UK RHS Jag powered steered K member is worth big bucks. You obviously spent an amount getting it. I would be prepared to match its AUS $ cost to you, and that would allow you to can get another post 1986 LHD Mustang K member for junk value, and then just use a stock Cortina powered rack if someone want's your K member. I think costed out, a Cortina rack is a straight bolt on, and the modifications to suit the LHD k member are nothing.


I haven't talked to Ausfox, but I'd say in simple dollar terms, a RHD K member conversion with Cortina rack and the right shaft to steering column would be a better than break even deal. DON'T LET THE DOLLARS KILL THE INNOVATION.


Power steering via the XJ6/XJ12/XJ-S steering rack is a common aftermarket option with the Mk2, S-type, 420, 420G, even the Daimler DS420 limos can take the conversion. It has a few geometery draw backs, but its doable.

There are a few different versions to fit it, because

the 1968 to 1989 front engined De Tomaso's (Deauville and Longchamps old Cam Gears or ZF Jaguar )
the 1976 to 1983 Maseratis Kylamai (Tipo 129),
the 1979 to 1990 Quattroporte III/Royale (AM330) used either the old Cam Gears or ZF Jaguar 420/ S type XJ conversion kit, which is where Alesandro got the rack from, it wasn't the Citroen rack and pinion system.)

Vickerage in the US does an XJ rack-and-pinion power steering rack in MK IIs and other early 420/ S type and 420G sedans.

Everyone talks about what is different, and custom, but rack and pinion suppliers know what is the same. The XJ set ups have the same Ackerman issues as the early Mustang Foxes, but De Tomaso got that all sorted from day one, using stock off the shelf components, but even engines were shifted and parts were customised to suit the off the shelf racks. The racks themselves were Cam Gears, but Adwest patents, and even Adwest purchased Burman in 1978, and all that Burman/Cam Gears/StanPart/ Marles/Bendix stuff was just typical white box supplier stuff, so the major French, German and US owned steering companies used the components, and bought the designs or owned the patents. So that's why ZF made Jag, deTomaso and Maserati steering rack with Adwest patents and Cam Gears designs.


An easy swap would be basically a stock Cortina Cleveland V8 type arrangement, and the Cortina TE/TF steering box clears the stock Iron headers.

PM me if you want some money to kick start that process. I can make is self financing if money is an issue. Since I've got access to a 0.235" Jag Torsion bar, then your K member and XJ Jag has value to me.

I know these Jag steering racks and the Cortina ones, and I'm not really fazed by all the variations.



Option 3.


If you got a wrecked Australian RHD SN95 steering set up set up from a 99 to 2003 Mustang, it will work, but there is a 17 mm length change from Fox to Fox 4 platform cars, as well as other changes, they moved the cross member forward and changed some other points..



Your Jag rack is basically the Series 3 XJ version of the best of the last Fox Mustangs. It has a stiff, 0.210" torsion bar with a ratio similar to the 15:1 ratio used in later 1986 onwards Mustangs. Jaguars, IIRC, are 13.7:1, same as Cam Gears Jensen Interceptor, and FF, and Aston Martin, 2.57 turns to 2.75 turns lock to lock. The Mustangs are 2.25, 2.5, 2.75 or 3.25 depnding on ratio, turning circle lock off tanks or rack limiters.

Most Cortinas (Aussie or European Power steering), are 18:1 like the early Mustangs.


The best of the last SN95 Mustangs, used 15:1 internal gears, and the same kind of stiff torsion bar the XJR Walkinshaw Jags used, 0.235".


None of these British or US rack and pinions are variable ratio, but they are based on machining changes pioneered by Bishop Steering Technology Ltd, and thats why there are so many variations od powered rack steering boxes, because cost, material, seal and external construction was jumped on by suppliers to make these items better for less dosh.


You'll get all the help you need because its the Americans who actually service these things, talk about it, and go out an do stuff which helps you.

http://georgiajag.com/Documents/Rack...nionHeads.html
http://www.jags.org/TechInfo/

And proof positive of the Cam Gears and Adwest/Jaguar/Triumph similarities is here. Again, when Americans talk to one another, things get sorted pronto.

http://www.jensenmuseum.org/dear-diary/steering/

And because I'm a total Aussie Cleveland V8 engine nut, and my favorite engine is in my favorite Italian four eye, the the information on the steering rack all came from DeTomaso's forums





http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums...4/m/5550057864

or its Quad Cam cusin, this immaculate Maserati Kylamai Tipo 129 and the Red Quattroporte A330 beside it. Both welded sheet unibody De Tomaso Longchamps and Deuavilles under the skin, with ZF Jaguar steering racks.






It might not be your cupa coffee, but because its steering, and it scares the crap out of people doing a RHD engine swap....here is one of the neatest bookes I've read in a long time...stops you being scared of the complexity of the stuff if you know how the movers and shakers think....


if you get the chance....

read "Driven by Ideas: The Story of Arthur Bishop, a Great Australian Inventor"
By American Authour Clare Brown"



Dewy Decimal 620.0092
Brown, Clare
ISBN 10: 0868406775 ISBN 13: 9780868406770

He founded in USA in 1957 the Bishop Steering Technology Ltd



The full realisation of his steering systems were the excellent second and third Gen Trans Ams and Firebirds, and the very similar HZ/WB Holdens; each steered so well because of his power steering box that the companies he worked for (Bendix and Adwest) never really understood, and couldn't build economically. So GM bought into the technology, and so did Ford Australia and all the later 1969 onwards US X cars like the Granada, Monarch and some Mavericks.

Europe had stormed into rack and pinion steering for a while, and in the USA it was because everyone was secretely hoping the old bu99er would do the impossiable, and make an economical variable ratio rack like he did for recirculating ball systems for 1969. He set to form a US patent which he started filing for in 17 Aug 1970, but the first car with it was the 1981 Isuzu Piazza, then the GM Holdens J car (Camira), then the Isuzu Aska and and it snow balled from there.

All Jags from Mark X on to 1970 had his versions of his powered steering birthed at Bendix and Adwest, found first in the fat 1964 4.2 versions of the Jag Mark X.

Wow, Thanks for the replies! I love driving my Fox around australia, no one knows what it is. I've had people call it a torana, scorpion and I even had someone call it a transam!! I'ts amazing that they are not well known here.

I had the same problem, so I just had four standard answers


just told people it was


1. a Left hand drive 1981 Toyota Supra,


2. 1981 Toyota Celica or

3. Mitsubishi Scorpion

or


4. US import Plymouth Colt Sapparo which was made by Mitsubishi....

[brianj]

For the Pace car nose, look into a Xenon front air dam. They are almost identical, and probably far cheaper for you to have shipped than a genuine pace car nose.

[RobboTheGreg]

Thank you for all the information again, I will slowly get though it all
I am Planning on taking the engine out again this weekend to sort out the clutch and trans mounting. I will get some photos of the k-member and power steering rack to confirm what it is.
I will see if I can get access to a cortina and have a look at its steering. I am pretty happy wth the current set up, the only issue is the exhaust which is prety minor so seems excessive to change it for that alone. But I will look into it anyway.

Brianj, Thanks for the info but the front bar I was actually refering too was this:

The whole front end including grill. I would be interested in something similar aftermarket too, if available.
I'm not overly fussed about it but I would prefer this one than mine.

[xctasy]

The international supply of Fox parts is a US thing. The US remains the knowledge and industry skills base, primarily due to aerospace and production equipment.

Its at the mercy of some pretty lower aptitude people who have the money, but not the inclination or the " want to " that foreigners like us are forced to exhibit when we can't get US stuff. Due to huge curvature changes on 83-86's, brianj made his own front air dam in panel steel rather than have to customize an off the shelf Xenon #3127. US Four Eyed Fox Mustang modifiers are much more like "foreigners like us". The problem is, the #3127 doesn't come with a Cobra grille clip, and all of those are integrated into the whole nose cone...natch!

LMR does them,
https://lmr.com/item/LRS-3127/1979-8...ethane-Air-Dam

but again, its not 100% Cobra.







For the UK "Poms", Aussies, South Pacific Poms (Kiwis!) and the Dutch, French and Belgium people, there is a simply stunning desire to refurbish parts no North American would be seen dead doin'!



If you have any steering issues, check with uncleterry


His I6 power steering rack will most likely have the same XK Jaguar top housing and RHD K member info that you might want. uncleterry does high end LED head and tail lamp design for the Automotive industry; his work is of exceptional quality.

uncle terry's car is amazing.

Started off as the typically salted Coupe with rust and worries.


Right hand drive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeSQV8Cw0X8

On full Cobra front parts... wraithracing notes that the old 79-82 Four Eyed stuff suffers. Trey has given a lot of info on how to rejuvenate old and forlorn front clip parts suitable for respray if you have to. That looks to me to be your first option. You Australians are typically a lot more self starters on car modification than anyone else in the world due to isolation. That's why you guys made the money on car production when other countries called it quits years before.

Note. There are full fiber glass front end clip suppliers who can probably help. What is listed on there sites is not just what is offered.

Due to the critical mass of business, the USA doesn't have a custom industry like Australia or the Kiwis do;

the US parts suppliers are always worried about people without aptitude creating litigation or bad reputation problems with their brand satisfaction.

As such, its possible to get excluded risk parts if you ask.

Main suppliers supply post four eye stuff at an exceptionally good price.

So finding a supply is not an issue for you if you post a wanted add else-ware.


In terms of simply excellent US suppliers for whole front clips, here is are three options.

http://www.hairyglass.com/mustang.html
http://www.maierracing.com
http://www.hofibertrends.com


Posts on fiberglass parts, maybe not exactly what you want, but it will be helpful. You can see that Four Eye 79-82 parts are dropping off the list fast, but 1983-1986, still good.





Fiberglass Hood http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...iberglass-Hood
fiberglass hatch install http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-hatch-install
fiberglass fenders http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...rglass-fenders
Who makes fiberglass fenders doors http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...-fenders-doors.


To replicate a Cobra front without importing, you would have to take the 3127, and make a grille insert in Reaction Injection Moulded plastic.


The internal parts are the same, the cheese cutters would have to be cut back, and a two blade replacement made.

Here is a breakdown of what comprises the OEM front air dam.



The diagram is courteousy of 85GTTops that was posted in another thread. I borrowed it to help show you all the parts and pieces that are involved. This acutally doesn't show the foam and bolts that are needed also. Hope this helps a bit.

Trey

The regular bumper cover is 100% cheese cutter.



You'll like this post....Queenslanders call Victorians Mexicans, but but you and me are below the 1989 mile Mexico–United States border.

Below 32°31′30″N to 25°55′49″N, Tijuana to Brownsville.....That makes all of us below all Mexicans.....

Does anybody have the front end installation diagram for the 1982 GT Mustang? I found this on the Haynes, but its the regular bumper cover. I´d like to see if I¨m missing anything on my car that is causing the cover tu bend in the central part, and also to see if my air dam is installed correctly

[xctasy]

351c Mustang at the Sturgis Mustang Rallye 2012

picture 103_0669.

Any one know the owner?

The picture that didnt show in your tag (above) has a 351 Clevland in it. Nice guy. He stopped to help out my buddy when he sheered off his wheel studs on his 07 shelby.

[Hammer Down]

Since your Australian, you should put SS bages on it, my, that would wind up the Commodre SS crowd....and rework the air cleaner with 5.8 Litre instead of 5.0 Liter.

Care of 82GT5.0


Are you gonna put Aluminium or Aluminium heads on it? AL minimum order, two heads.

Enjoy the discovery.



Deano from Moo Zealand...

An 'SS' badge on a ford. Now I am a believer in different dimensions.