What is "RARE"

[HCBERICH]

Considering the term"RARE" is subject to the user...I was curious what you folks consider rare. I am sure there will be vastly different opinions but I was curious to hear some guidelines. The term gets thrown around a lot. For example if they made 100 of a particular model/version that could be considered rare, but what if they made 6000 of a model/version but only 100 are left?

[4eyedfoxdriver]

If you can't find it, it's rare. If they made 10 of them, and 9 of them are for sale, can't call that rare.

[vintageracer]

Definition of "Rare":

Nobody wanted it when it was new either!

That's why it's "Rare"!

[dagenham]

Definition of "Rare":

Nobody wanted it when it was new either!

That's why it's "Rare"!

That is funny and true all at the same time.
I say the same thing when I see the word "RARE" used in a cars description.

[homer302]

Definition of "Rare":

Nobody wanted it when it was new either!

That's why it's "Rare"!

That was going to be my comment but you beat me to it. I personally wonder why some people associate RARE with VALUABLE. I will see if I can dig it up but I posted this same question not 2 weeks ago in one forum. Yugos are pretty RARE. Yeah.....so what?
I love it when people post ads saying their car is rare. It truly is an LOL moment. Cars are RARE for a reason when new and as stated above, RARE when they are old for that exact SAME reason.

[ZephyrEFI]

People do like to use "rare" in their ads, but that's not what matters. What matters is "sought after".

[HCBERICH]

If you can't find it, it's rare. If they made 10 of them, and 9 of them are for sale, can't call that rare.

That's funny I was going to use the example of the 78 Corvette Pace Car they made 6502 of them, and 6499 of them are available with low miles and every time I see an ad for one they say "rare".

Vintage you hit it right on the head. When the 2005 Ford GT came out they couldn't give them away. They were selling for $25 under sticker. Now they are $250-$350k

And Zephyr what a coincidence...look up the prices of LIncoln Zephyrs from 1937-1939. In the 80s and 90s nobody wanted them now they are bringing six figures all day.

[homer302]

People do like to use "rare" in their ads, but that's not what matters. What matters is "sought after".

EXACTLY! there is no association between RARE and VALUABLE. Well said. Sorry, I am not trying to hijack your thread. I just had a very similar question of why people with RARE cars want to associate them with VALUABLE.

And I am not sure how much attention you pay to the market HCBERICH but Hagerty has the Ford GT listed as a DO NOT BUY currently. It's a bad investment. The values you speak of were 3 years ago. The value of a 05-06 GT increased 23% in ONE year. Sure, they can sustain that. The SMART people are the ones that sold them 3 years ago to the FOOLS who are just now realizing they are in a pickle. Those smart people will most likely be the ones to buy the same car back from the fools, LOL. Bottom has fallen back out and the prices are coming back down to where they should be. Hmmmm.....let's think on this a minute. Ford is bringing out a new GT and prices explode. How surprising and unexpected, LOL. NOT.
Almost identically, What we are seeing right now is a minor (short term) market correction for the Fox Mustangs as well. Because Barrett Jackson sold some cars the people that believe they are market speculators are paying way to much for Fox Mustangs today because they believe they are on the rise when in actuality, the real speculators bought 3-5 years ago and are the ones selling to those people today. It's called the circle of life. Fox prices will fall within the next 18 months.

[vintageracer]

The Ford GT is no different than a Mercedes SL convertible or any other "EGO" car.

When the "NEW" model or "Replacement" model is introduced the "Old" one drops like a rock in value as the "Money Crowd" moves to the newest, latest and greatest leaving their "Old" one to the mere "Mortals in High Roller Training" who could not afford one when new. Now all of a sudden that "High Roller In Training" can buy the "Old" model as prices are now only 10% of the original cost HOWEVER they still cannot afford to FIX the damn thing when it breaks!

What the Hell that old one STILL looks good broke down in your driveway as your neighbors still think you are a "High Roller Wannabe" in training. After all that's why you bought a "Training" car to impress your friends, neighbors and relatives as you STILL cannot afford the REAL DEAL!!!!

Just remember when it comes to any "Vintage" item it is by far much better for that item to be "Desirable" than "Rare" as when an item is "Desirable" than means more than 1 person will want it and that usually translates into "Mo Money"!

Mix "Desirable a & Rare" and look out Bill Gates as you are headed to the top of the Worlds Richest list!!!

[homer302]

I wish I was as good as wording as VintageRacer and ZephyrEFI. I talk to much and they make such great points in 1 sentence.

[HCBERICH]

Homer I disagree with you. The fox values will go up, and its a simple rule of demographics. Guys who had the 80s fox bodies back in the day are at the age where the 30yr mortgage is finally paid off, the kids are out of school, and they finally have a few bucks to spend on themselves. I have been in the collector car hobby my whole life. My father has a very large collection that spans from the 30s to the 70s and the values have always followed the age groups that desire them. my father has cars that were worth $200-$300k 10 years ago but the age group that appreciates them is dying off. That same car is worth $125k today and falling. They go up before they go down.
The simple rule of economics, The more people that want something, the more valuable it will become. I think we will not hit the ceiling on the foxes for about 8-9 years. I think the ceiling will be $20-25 for a good car and $30-40 for a great car. We are half way there.

[homer302]

I believe you are 100% correct. If you were assuming there was no 640HP GT500 in 2014 ever made, 2003-04 Terminator, or any 2010-14 GT 5.0, the 2012-13 BOSS 302 or the Fully independent suspension 2015+ 435HP 5.0. Unfortunately, that is not the case. These cars are far superior to the Fox in every single way. So if it's demographics, what happened to the people who grew up with the best selling Mustang in the entire history of Mustangs, the Mustang II? They had kids and mortgages too?

No worries. One of us is wrong and it's probably me and that's fine. I have no money on this!

[HCBERICH]

All in fun my friend.

[Droog]

I believe you are 100% correct. If you were assuming there was no 640HP GT500 in 2014 ever made, 2003-04 Terminator, or any 2010-14 GT 5.0, the 2012-13 BOSS 302 or the Fully independent suspension 2015+ 435HP 5.0. Unfortunately, that is not the case. These cars are far superior to the Fox in every single way. So if it's demographics, what happened to the people who grew up with the best selling Mustang in the entire history of Mustangs, the Mustang II? They had kids and mortgages too?

No worries. One of us is wrong and it's probably me and that's fine. I have no money on this!

You're making the mistake of confusing "capability" with "collectability" and the two aren't the same thing. If they were, Boss 429's would be going for a whole lot less than a new GT, you wouldn't be able to give away a 65 K-GT, and you'd actually have to pay someone to haul off your 32 3-window coupe.

Everybody likes what they like for different reasons, but I feel safe in stating that we, collectively as car people, value old cars not for what they are, but for what they were. The aforementioned Boss '9 is a horrible piece of crap compared to a new GT, but capability in a modern context isn't what makes it worth 250k. It's history it what makes it valuable.

As far as rare? Well, that's contextual as well, isn't it? I've got a set of 427 Tunnel Port heads under the bench that aren't rare at all to me because I see them every day. To someone else, it's probably a different story.

Also, the II wasn't the best selling Mustang. Which series sold best depends on how you divide up generations, but in any case the Fox outsold the II by a ton.

[smitty54]

OK, out of the 6 thousand or so 84 Mustang GT convertibles made, only 205 were made in in my paint, trim codes. Does that make it rare, maybe. Does that make it desirable in this particular age group, no. It was also a Ford executive car, but that still doesn't make it desirable. Most die hard Mustang fans don't want a convertible and definitely don't want an automatic transmission, but I wouldn't change anything.

[erratic50]

Love the discussion- great comments. I couldn't agree more.

So case in point - there were exactly 3 1988 ASC Mclarens built in dark blue with dark blue leather interior and dark top. Two were automatics, one was a 5-speed. The 5-speed car is literally a one of one ride therefore. Does that make it rare - absolutely. Does that make it valuable?

Not really - it failed to sell on a private sale in Florida last year where it was advertised as low as $7K. The problem is the general public doesn't know what the heck an ASC is. Just like they've never heard of a twister or a dominator, etc. Many special cars exist that I had never heard of and never knew about for years.

Meanwhile my sons car that started life as a "less than highly desirable" dark red with tan top and interior became someone's one-off creation - a triple black interior/top/exterior 86GT that had god-awful wheels, tail lights, and ugly tan seats than needed to go- it went for $3800. Now that it's brought up to a excellent condition that is relatively stock appearing (86 10-hole rims, new shocks/struts, tires, battery, brake pads, fuel pump, used original 86GT tail lights, new trunk lid to fix the rust, cobra wing) and we have added 1993 black leather seats to solve the interior sadness he has been offered as much as $8500 for it.

More rare than the ASC - no because no books on fox production suggest his even exists. More valuable - well - currently it appears so.

Perhaps a car is worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay that is enough to please the seller enough to sign it over.

That being said if I had ever been stupid enough to part with my 1986 GT and got the chance to buy it back lord knows I would WAY over pay for it because it's the only one that is MY car. But thankfully that's one I don't have to deal with. I do still get calls once every so many years from its previous owners. Somehow the price offered goes in one ear and out the other as there is no way as long as I am alive that they will ever get their meat hooks on my car again. And I know my son feels the same way so I guess they are SOL.

[Squirrel]

i associate rare usually with low production. i buy and sell classic cars for a living and rare to me is a 400 4 speed 79 Special edition Trans Am for example. They made a ton of 79 TA's but only 1107 of the one I just described, therefore rare and valuable. Rare is not always valuable but when it is you usually have the best combo. Rare equates to not many made, and it usually makes a difference.

[erratic50]

I wonder what the statistics are on crash rates of the more popular color cars. Is there one color crashed most per car made? Does this translate into a market where the cars remaining are both widely desired and also rare?

I went to high school with a guy that had an all black 79(?) Mustang 5.0L sporting T-tops, a 4-speed, and all of the reddish-orange cobra decals, etc. The idiot drove it while drunk and flipped it into a creek top first. He somehow survived without a scratch but it was a REAL baller to see what little was left of that Cobra. I've never seen another one like it in person. I'm sure most of us have one of those stories.

[Droog]

I wonder what the statistics are on crash rates of the more popular color cars. Is there one color crashed most per car made? Does this translate into a market where the cars remaining are both widely desired and also rare?

I went to high school with a guy that had an all black 79(?) Mustang 5.0L sporting T-tops, a 4-speed, and all of the reddish-orange cobra decals, etc. The idiot drove it while drunk and flipped it into a creek top first. He somehow survived without a scratch but it was a REAL baller to see what little was left of that Cobra. I've never seen another one like it in person. I'm sure most of us have one of those stories.

Survival rates count for sure. Some cars were luckier than others. Hemi E-body convertibles being an example of "lucky" and 66 Buick GS's with the 340 horsepower "A9" package being an example of "unlucky".

[erratic50]

What's interesting is that there are a very disproportionate number of surviving red interior 86 GT's for sale compared to the production numbers. Way more grey were built. Especially when talking about factory black exterior cars.

Maybe a case of less loved means more for sale?

I believe most still find the grey more desireable than a red, but if the red is prestine original or redone with goods from the right suppliers and all resprayed to get the colors to match properly I personally really like the red.

Red was my favorite color as a child, black ultimately became my favorite as an adult. So no surprise my car is black with red interior that has black brought into it through my taste in customizations.

With the snap steer condition and rear hydroplane problems it's a small wonder any foxes survived. Lord knows mine was nearly the death of me and my driving skills just barely - and with a ton of luck - got me out of the jam those characteristics and my early lack of awareness got me into.

I do still like the quote from Car and Driver back in the 80's when they said something like the brakes were the only thing that are bigger joke on the 86 5.0L than the 85 MPH speedometer.

[conmech]

As mentioned, RARE can be a misguided word. IIRC, it takes approximately 500 of a specific layout of a car to be considered "regular production". Heard this back when I was working at a dealership in the '80's. Is it fact? Dunno.......

For some of us, 2.3L 20th Anniversary owners, RARE started at the beginning. Vert owners have RARE written all over the "104 built" fact. Personally, I'm happy as hell being in the "Sub 500 Club" with my 1 of 362 turbo 4 hatchback. We all know that there are a few other 4 eyes that have extremely low build numbers, like Saleen's, Cobra's, etc......Not all have been accounted for and one could wonder how many of a certain model are still alive....

[erratic50]

I had the chance to buy a car just like yours back in the day. At the time I didn't know the production numbers were SO low. Congratulations on having one of so few.

I was concerned with selecting a fox that would go the distance because I didn't have much money and whatever I picked was going to have to win a lot more in racing than it cost me in maintenance or keeping it insured and paid for monthly while in college and having food to eat just wasn't going to work out.

Mine with the 5.0 did not disappoint in that department. But now I have a just another well worn 5.0. And when I'm done fixing it I'll have just another restomodded example. Oh well - such a happy mix is no different than my favorite pair of hiking boots. Both just suit me.

[Ray Dog]

I truly believe desirable trumps rare.
It's not the number built it's desire to own a distinct car.
Or the back story of a car. Look at the Papa John's Camero.
http://ir.papajohns.com/releasedetai...leaseid=404954
How many Z28 Comaro were made in 71? John Schnatter was interested in the right one.

[erratic50]

Yep - we never forget the ones we really love.

[sowaxeman]

RARE is the only way to enjoy a good filet! Warm red center at 130* and pink to the outer edges with a crispy seared outside from butter and garlic. YUM