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  1. #1

    Default Tri Power Turbo ? On stock 302 without EEC

    Okay, I realize I may be insane for even suggesting such a thing BUT I have the following available to me

    T4/T5 Turbo
    Shorty Headers
    3 x Holley 5200 Carbs
    Malpassi Fuel Pressure Regulator

    Am I crazy to think that I could tri power Turbo charge my stock 302 ?

    Is tri power feasible on a v8 ?

    I have a rear facing scoop... it wouldn't be impossible for me to cut a hole in the hood , build an airbox with a TMIC connected to the tri power..

    I could use this intake manifold here
    http://www.cobranda.com/3x2alinma.html

    Please tell me I'm insane.
    1981 Mustang Hatch 3.3 "Orange Juice"
    1983 Mustang GT Convertible "Triple Black"
    1994 Ford ThunderBird SC
    1987 Firebird T/A
    1984 Firebird Forumla
    1988 Mazda RX-7 Infinity
    1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II
    1994 Eagle Talon TSI
    1991 Eagle Talon TSI
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

  2. #2
    FEP Super Member mustangxtreme's Avatar
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    I'll bite. You're insane. 5200 Holleys are a progressive 2bbl which isn't what you would need for that manifold. If you are going for inexpensive carbs you may be able to make a Motorcraft 2100/2150 work with some modifications.
    Dave

    If common sense was common wouldn't it just be sense?

    1983 Capri L T top 5.0 efi aod
    1983 Capri RS Turbo
    1981 Black Magic 400 c6
    93 F-250 351 5sp 4x4

  3. #3

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    Haha , Thanks for being honest. The carb isn't the best choice I'll give you that, I just so happen to have 3 of them lying around and I'm a mad scientist when It comes to cars.
    1981 Mustang Hatch 3.3 "Orange Juice"
    1983 Mustang GT Convertible "Triple Black"
    1994 Ford ThunderBird SC
    1987 Firebird T/A
    1984 Firebird Forumla
    1988 Mazda RX-7 Infinity
    1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II
    1994 Eagle Talon TSI
    1991 Eagle Talon TSI
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

  4. #4
    FEP Senior Member droopie85gt's Avatar
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    It would be miles easier just using a single 4bbl blow thru carb.
    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  5. #5

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    State of sanity aside, the as-is snouts on those carbs (and I think their bolt pattern) won't allow bolting down together onto such a six-pack intake, without some sort of lengthwise adapter to spread them out front-to-rear... which would then likely get the front carb into the distributor's area... etc...

    Not crazy, totally feasible, totally unique, and could be very tractable and powerful... with three 2300 Holley's, or Autolite/Motorcraft 2100/2150's. The turbocharged stuffed-in airflow race would be on!

    600+ for that six-pack intake manifold would easily buy a 4-bbl intake manifold, a carburetor, and the few carburetor modifications necessary for blow-thru.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang
    1974 Pontiac LeMans

  6. #6

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    Well I have an exhaust leak on my pass side... so that means I get to take the exhaust off. So the shortys are going on one way or another, any recommendations on a blow thru carb ? The intake I will have to decide on between Dual 4's or Triple 2's . I think the work on tri power would be a lot more, so I might just go with dual 4's.

    I just really love saying Tri Power though, it's so appealing.

    Aside from the obvious additional CFM, would a 2 x 4 carb setup just run one as the main and one as the secondary, or would it use the mains of both as the main etc

    I have all the stuff I need aside from exhaust piping (which is cheap) and there is a perfect triangle hole on the bottom side of the hood that is right on top of the air cleaner.
    Name:  Triangle.jpg
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    1981 Mustang Hatch 3.3 "Orange Juice"
    1983 Mustang GT Convertible "Triple Black"
    1994 Ford ThunderBird SC
    1987 Firebird T/A
    1984 Firebird Forumla
    1988 Mazda RX-7 Infinity
    1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II
    1994 Eagle Talon TSI
    1991 Eagle Talon TSI
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

  7. #7
    FEP Power Member xctasy's Avatar
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    i have to be carefull to answer your questions.


    Before I do, I would personally Zero off some cost, and get a much better result.

    Grab a used GT40 lower intake, and buy an extra 5200 carb.



    place four in line 5200's on it with two left, two right. A KC12 linkage allows them to be all linked together, mechanical secondary. The blueprinted flow rate of the 26/27 venturi 5200 Holley Weber has been measured at exactly 227 cfm at 1.5"Hg. Time 4, that is 908 cfm . Just like two 465 cfm 4-bbl mec secondaries. There were downgraded 23 mm venturi primary 5200 carbs for later 1980-1982 2.3's, and they flow less. So do the Chevy Chevette carbs. The 74-79 26 mm primary 5200 carbs are the ones to get.

    Under each carb you have a trouser link front to back so one 27 mm barrel goes to the center, the other 23 or 26 mm venturi, to the center. Under wide open throttle. Both throotles tip in toward a common center point.

    You just grab a hunk of 1-1/4" 32 mm alloy tooling plate used for presses, and cut and drill and trough in the the lower intake, then add a 1/2" upper plat which you mount your carbs to.

    The 5200 has to tuned like the four corner idle on the 4180c, and you use the same 5200 jets and idle correctors and power valves and float settings. For linkage control, well Webers linkage is crazy good.

    You don't go over 12 psi boost, and you'll be fine.


    Grab one after market linkage

    JEEP CJ7 Wrangler Cherokee 4.2 Redline Linkage kit for WEBER DGV, DGEV, or DGAV


    Bill's k12 38 weber 2bbl rod operated accelerator linkage for his 38 DGAS is here








    WEBER DGV/DGAV TWIN CARBURETTOR/CARB THROTTLE SYNCHRONISING LINKAGE KIT

    Start jetting is the same as the stock Chervelot Chevette.

    Its in the Holley book by SA bookes.

    You use the stock Ford throttle linkage, centered between the carbs, and link the left and right bank.

    You'll have to create a handed version of the after market "THROTTLE SYNCHRONISING LINKAGE KIT"

    I'd go to a jeweler and ask him to make four knock off 32/36 linkages in mirror image form for your 5200's.


    The easiest way to do it would be to have 32/36's on the paasenger bank, and 5200's on the drivers side, and lik them.


    With an average of eight 26.5 mm venturis, peak power would be at a very low figure, and it would provide an imense amount of low speed torque.



    Now, if you wanna go triples with a 600 dollar intake, then you run the middle carb as a simultanous 5200 coversion by scratch building a mirror image throttle conversion to the 32/36 system above.

    Add a half inch plate, undivided to the base, a standard Holley 2300/Autolite 2100/Motorcraft 2150 series to 32/36 daptor, but opened up so the differential size throttles are able to open, and tip into towards the engine center line. HW 5200's provide excellent air fuel ratio distribution compared to H 23000/A 2100/M 2150 2-bbl carbs. Having a 32 mm primary with 36 secondary and 26 and 27 mm differentially sized venturis makes no problem with air fuel distribution, as the throttles tip in towards a common center.

    You do have to put an undivided plate under them to ensure air fuel is evenly distributed through the effectively 6 bbl intake. Outer carbs , you can do whatever, but I'd peRsonally put an undivided carb spacer plate on the outer two carbs. The two outers should come in at 60% throttle, and you'd do that by using the lost motion 38DEGS spindle, used on this guys Saab 93 Twin Weber 38DGES conversion. You really need a simultaneous linkage to each carb, and lost motion to the ourts, and then it tips bothe barrels open from the 5200 Holley Webers primary barrel.

    See BassPlayerMykk's Twin 38DGES 94 Saab 95 carb conversion. Most of it is so totally poorly executed due to its inablity to run indepedent runner the way the stock injection intake used to, but its got some really nice parts and he has built it first and had a go.

    The lost motion 38DGES throttle spindel is the focus point here, and its got the right way of producing inital non movement for the two outer carbs.

    Rember, the HW 5200 is sort of a handed mirror image, non gear driven 38 DGES

    You have to transfer the idea over to the two outer 5200 HW's to ease your throttle linkage stress and set up issues.

    http://vid1230.photobucket.com/album...8_133544-1.mp4

    http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...-95-bmw-540i-6


    Good fortune with this. Oh, and there's a reason Ford USA never went blow through asside from the first Paxton supercharged T-birds and 57 Fords and the 67 Shelby's....if a blow trhough carb ruptures a power valve or collapses a float or has a in service fuel delivery problem, in the words of Assistant Chief Engineer for the 79 Mustang 2.3 Turbo



    Same with the blow through 1985 4-bbl Saleen PaxtonMustang conversion; should have been a shoe in for CARB emissions certification, but even the most excellent car sorters in the world had so many problems making a blow trhough carb work and be legal and safe, they avoided blow through carb instillations for years.


    Gale Banks, Austin Rover's MG Metro 1275/ MG Maestro2000 and Ford of Europes 2.8 Capri Turbo and Alfa Romeo's TurboDelta and the Lous Esprit Turbo were the best blow trhough conversions. The R5/R18/Feugo Renault Solex 1-bbl blow through carb instillations weren't very reliable because of in service fuel dlivery problems.


    My summary? Norm General from Ford was right, but if your carbs are in good shape and you havea good, robust and well sorted fuel air distribution and linkage, a brace of multiple Holley Weber 5200's will be a great blow thru carb.


    This all goes back to what I said a while ago. If you use Webers to get an inital jump on horsepower before turbo charging is added, then a low pressre, less than 12 pound boost turbo with a mechanical fuel pump and Malpasi rising rate fuel regulator will allow Weber carbs to run easily and simply. The Italians, Germans (Zakspeed 2.8 Turbo Capri) and English made blow through turbos work by simply understanding what a carb does, and by moderate boost increase, not huge ones. Getting reliable 40 to 65% power boosts with just 9 pounds of boost was because they understood how to makr the basic carbs work properly.

  8. #8

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    It's funny because Fuel Delivery is one thing I do understand.

    I have a Malpassi Regulator, I have the Sync Link, and I have a High Volumne Fuel Pump

    From what you are saying X this would be very similar to what I had to do on my 81 for the TRI power, I will need to get my hands on another 5200 and see what I can come up with. Although I may end up having to do it on a pulled 302 I have here, as I might have to sell my vert due to upcoming expenses (I'm getting married in June and school In sept) so I don't think I'll be doing it on the 83 GT Vert. Gives me a good idea to play around with though on my test bed
    1981 Mustang Hatch 3.3 "Orange Juice"
    1983 Mustang GT Convertible "Triple Black"
    1994 Ford ThunderBird SC
    1987 Firebird T/A
    1984 Firebird Forumla
    1988 Mazda RX-7 Infinity
    1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II
    1994 Eagle Talon TSI
    1991 Eagle Talon TSI
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

  9. #9
    FEP Power Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTD View Post
    It's funny because Fuel Delivery is one thing I do understand.

    I have a Malpassi Regulator, I have the Sync Link, and I have a High Volumne Fuel Pump

    From what you are saying X this would be very similar to what I had to do on my 81 for the TRI power, I will need to get my hands on another 5200 and see what I can come up with. Although I may end up having to do it on a pulled 302 I have here, as I might have to sell my vert due to upcoming expenses (I'm getting married in June and school In sept) so I don't think I'll be doing it on the 83 GT Vert. Gives me a good idea to play around with though on my test bed
    You're an X biker dude...so you know carbs,

    You can put any thing on anything, if you have enough of them and now the rules.

    Running two 32/36 Webers on one side of an EFI intake with bike inlet tracts on a plenumb one side, and then two 5200 's with the same would allow you to operate one cable on two linkages with the same fulcrum.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTqONGkJl8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaE8uw6O8S0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTHu3NkQIE

    Everything 5200 I give to you...

    https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=...560110#p560110

  10. #10

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    YAh this is the second set of 5200 x 3 that I have, they worked out so nice on the 81 I figured might be fun to frakenstein something together. Heh it's almost too bad Can't put some of my old Harley exhaust on. Then again maybe I can... muahahahha
    1981 Mustang Hatch 3.3 "Orange Juice"
    1983 Mustang GT Convertible "Triple Black"
    1994 Ford ThunderBird SC
    1987 Firebird T/A
    1984 Firebird Forumla
    1988 Mazda RX-7 Infinity
    1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II
    1994 Eagle Talon TSI
    1991 Eagle Talon TSI
    2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP

  11. #11
    FEP Power Member xctasy's Avatar
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    I'm not an applogist for the carb turbo.

    It is what it is historically. Service technicians and an arm load of follow up couldn't save the dec't save the device from oblivion.

    Its like comparing a turbo prop to a jet engine...one piles parts of parts, the other just slams kerosene down machined to tolloerance titanuium turbo vanes. Up front investment in EFI was like a jet turbine, a naturasl progression, and EFI works, and does the job. But it carries with it a need to ace the technicals of pulse width, and fuel delivery every step of the way...you can't play with them like you can carbs.


    Eveyone goes nuts when they see MULTIPLE carbs on a Ford V8...


    My contention has awlays been putting an extra, known to be reliable system in your fuel dleivery is KISS (Keeping It Simple Stoopid).


    So if you wanna have two, three or four carbs and one turbo then okay, fine.

    Peope who then tell you to go FOCUS on KISS...wel, F OFF Cos You Stoopid,

    Even if its five simple systems extra, as long as they are simple.


    Ford thinks different. They couldn't wait to get Silicon Valley injection with one throttle body, and that's the sucess story of the 5.0.






    You may have heard, (and this is a French joke) they say a carburetor (American and Canadian spelling) is just French for "Don't F with it..."



    I guess its English or German people people who cant read French that like to take the whizz outa the French, but who bought all there carbs?

    The more I study it, the more I see that service and maintenance of blow through low pressure turbo instillations is excatly as Norm General said...a great idea, and preferable, but frought with issues that Detriot refuse to spend a dollar on fixing by removing the chance of internal leaks. The French, Germans and English were not risk averse. But I get it, one leaking internal part, or blocked idle or needle, and your turbo will either run out of fuel, or hydraulic the engine....

    The Solex 32 1-bbl above, the French used extensively from 1982 to 1987 C6J 1397 and 1565 cc Carb Turbo A5L I4 engine

    Not being sarcastic, but since people are so quick to pan French Turbos, perhaps I can prove the same issue that Ford USA delt with when the 79-81 Carb Turbo Mustang and VV2700 1979 Cologne 171 v6 , and VV7200 1980-1982 255, 302 and 351 carb cars came out...that "No-one understands the basic systems..it justs kills the average Joes mind when they see this stuff...."











    The info is all there if you talk with people who know French...failing that, a little logic also works...

    A he|| ova Lot of 1980's emissions era Ford 2-bbl cars had bleed back Miles Per Gallon sensors, and there today aren't people around who knows if the car is
    injected,
    electrically fuel pumped,
    what the regulator
    or what the MPG meter lookes like.

    So they just go on a

    "Sick of this" tirade and just want the crap gone STAT!

    And that's why poeple don't understand the true glory of a sick as turbo carb system that works.

    Ak Miller did from Ford back in the day, and he could (and did) turbocharge anything and run it on gasoline, EFI , propane, carbs, dual fuel, the whole nine yards, and those systems would just scare people. Like it still does today....


    two 5200's on one side, and two 32/36's on the other on a Ron Ward style intake manifold draped over a stock EFI intake with one turbo would just Freeekin Kill anyone at a car show...it'd be like Professor Brainstorm had gotten loose...

    why th heck does anyone need three glasses anyway?




    ...the filter is fitted after the pump, fuel flows from tank to pump and then pressurised through the filter and then onto the front of the car where the regulator keeps the pressure constant and bleeds any excess back to the tank.
    The fuel pressure has to be held higher than the boost pressure that the turbo produces or else it wouldn't exit the carb jets and turbo boost would force the fuel back. Also that is why the carb float chamber is run at the same pressure as the inlet tract or the fuel wouldn't exit the float chamber through the main jets due to pressure differences, just a little bit of useless information for you.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/ren...fuel-pump.html

    Holley Webers for the simplicity of linkages, and huge amount of clever people making them work.

    HDYMTPOSW= How Did You Make This P.O.S Work....

    It's basically like Bills K12 log headed I6 3.3 linkge above, rod ends and a link.

    Although this is a 2100 Autolite/ 2150 Motorcraft/ 2300 Holley linkage, the idea is straight aftermarket 5200 Holley Weber adaptor kit with a link rod.

    Greg K, an exceptional 5.0 V8 and a long time in line six Ford Technician, pitched the customer picture in a differet form, but here it is modified to embody the carb to carb linkage idea he was sharing.

    Guys that have ridden and owned a big powerful mulitple carb bike "Get It". Linkages and 1 pound per square inch fuel deliveries aren't an issue.

    As long as those idle jets don't blocked [a problem with all Webers, except only the last International Webers, the last Escort Holley Carter 5740's Euro Ford Sierra DMT 32/34's and Fiat 131/132/X1-9 and Aussie Ford Falcon Weber AD series that they fixed it, and they are totally different castings], and the floats and needle and seat don't become the limit to fuel delivery, low pressure emulsified fuel is just sensational with a turbo.



    One thing about all those old low pressure Turbo Deltas Alfa Romeos, Esprit Turbo's, the turbo is just a 45%er in power boost, most of it was already there in having a superior basic system that made 1 to 1.2 hp per cubic inch already.

    For example, while you little 5.0's were stumpling along with 256/268 cam profiles. our basic Aussir 5.0's in the XR8's were making 1 hp per cubic inch in the factory XR8 220 Rebels with off the shelf Exploder bits and a quasi E303 cam with nothing more than a few hand built engine tricks...an old truck engine with the Electronic gate keepers removed




    Going back to carb turbo...

    The French Solex carb turbos 4bl, 2-bbl, 1-bbl were also brilliant, but there were other electronic related issues that hurt the 1-bbl 1397 and 1565 cc Turbo engines. More the Tibb fob locks and VDO electonics. Renault put regulators on there 1-bbl turbo's, and won Monte Carlo Group N and A races with it.



    Even the Early non EFI pre 1987 Bentley Mulsanne Turbo had a Solex 4-bbl which BMW (2.0/2.3/3.0) , Mercedes Benz (M series 280S and Opel/Vauxhall 2.8/3.0 couldn't seam to ever get right on there small sixes.

    Rolls Royce didn't have any problems with it on there 6.75 liter engines with 200hp (normally aspirated)and 300 hp (Turbo).

    It was all about proper 3/32" thick gaskets, and not over doing the torque on the screws and bending the zinc oxide castings.




    But again, you Motorcyle guys are all about being "Gently Bentley", and checking how things feel and fit, not brutalising it with a torque wrench...this carb below has a 2800 pound sterling price tag verses a junked 280S carb you might get for free, both of them are the same carb



    One you turbo, and make 300 hp with, and do 135 mph and 15 second quarters in....the other, you slap a rebuild kit on it and it doesn't do a 19 second 1/4 mile and can't make 156 hp, and drinks as much Fuel as a 300 hp Bentley.


    Same carb, just tuning and turbo.

    A large amount of early Renault performance Hemi headed version of the "Cléon-Alu" engine in 1397 and 1565 cc Turbo's (front drive 5 Alpine Turbo, R9 Turbo sedan and R11 Turbo hatch, which used the turbocharged engine from the front drive R5.Same with the R18, Feugo Turbo), and the old Cologne 188 hp Capri 2.8 Turbo, were Solex carbed as well and boosted to over 6psi. Same 40 to 45% power boost.

    The issue was that the claim that "most Solex carb turbos were unreliable" was due to the use of electronic ignition and oher ignition inhibitor matters, not the carbs themselves.

    Remember, the European electronics industry wasn't like Silicone Valley or Japanese electronics.

    That linkage again...





    And as for marriage, good fortune and love. 27 years for me in August. Poor lady has had three "life" sentances served in sequence, I tell her often she shoulda deep sixed me in the first few years, she woulda been out in seven, and could have had anyone she pleasesd as a slightly dodgy ex con.

    She said, no. She just needs an award....for living with Professor Brainstorm.

    I used my first fuel pressure regulator (Malplassi) in 1980 on my 58 Vauxhall

    did my first two carb swaps (32/36 Weber to Sunbeam 1725, and 390 cfm Holley 4-bbl to Pinto 2000) in 1995.

    did my first Propane carb adaptor (500 Holley and Impco CA300A5 on an x flow 1984 250 Falcon family car that my wife flow around Dunedin) in 1996,
    and my first propane turbo (Cologne V6 with Mazda 626/Ford Probe Turbo, ) in 2001.

    No one could understand how any of that stuff worked. At all.....

    Go enjoy yourself, and RUN make it happen....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLtInwMig_8


    Even if you can't physically ride again, Don't choose not to ride again....have a go, lern the rules, and Run with it...don't let technology master YOU.

    You master IT!

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