Which later models have a T-5 that will fit 1980 cobra ?

[at_the_junkyard]

Hi all,

I am on the lookout for any T-5 that I may be able to use for a swap on my sons 1980 cobra. He really wants to convert to a manual and I can't say that I disagree with him. The current setup is a stock 302 C-4 auto and the gearing combo with the rear end is not very ideal in my opinion, but it was a good start for him as a learning driver the last couple years etc.

I have read various things on some of the threads about later model V-6 mustang swaps...so was wondering if there is a certain model/year that may work etc ? The V6 cars are certainly more plentiful...this assuming I do not come along an 80 something T-5 on a 302 car...very rare these days for sure !!

I do currently have a complete 4-speed S-ROD with bell housing from a 302 off a 79 mustang that seems to be in good shape. We could hook this up but I feel a 5-speed would be even more ideal since we are modding the car anyway (I know I like mine...off an 83).

I assume I could utilize the 302 bellhousing off the SROD with the stock flywheel, clutch, and starter to get half way there at least. I also have a set of pedals and clutch cable and the double hump member for the swap. In addition I have an 8.8 posi with a set of 3.08 gears off a 94 and axles from an 86 that would be going in at the same time as well.

I have read some of the threads about different input shafts and retainer sizes on the different T5 but still not really sure of the specifics for my case. I do know for sure the stock driveshaft will probably be too long but I have a plan for that.

Any information, advice, or opinions on this swap would be appreciated. I am pretty sure this type of swap has probably been done by someone before.

Thanks in advance.

[82GTforME]

There is one on the Western Foxbody Canada FB page right now. $400 without the bell I think. I didn't ask but it didn't mention 4 cyl or V8 nor did I see or ask about the tag to confirm the type and year.

[xctasy]

To answer your question, all the T5 option Foxes starting from for the 1983 model year 2.3 and 5.0's.

But be aware that there are even GM cased T5's which fit (S10's are simplest, but even the more complicated F-body TransAm/FireBird/Camaro with the wacky 17 degree trans tilt and oddball extension housing), so any T5 is a candidate. Easiest ones are the Ford based case, which actually first came out in 1980 AMC's and the 1982 280 ZX Turbo Datsun used before Ford did, even tough the 1981 only option 3.3 liter In line Six T4 gearbox was a 90% T5 gearbox in every way. The 300ZX's kept them for a few years till about 1986.

And the great news,


Yes, you can use the SROD bellhousing. Justs needs drilling and filling for the SR4/T4/T5 bolt spacing, and a mild rout out of the spigot housing to clear the slightly bigger approx 4.910" spigot they had over the approx 4.850-4.890" spiggot.[/B]

The SROD was an outsourced transmission, a struggle Ford persued doggedly between the suppliers (Borg Warner, Orion, Tremec) and was far cheeper to make than the twice the weight "Munitions Grade" 9 and 10 bolt 3 and 4 speed TopLoders

RacinNdrummin did the most excellent write up on a 4 cyl T5 to SROD conversion of it.

super4ord confrimed the excellence of the D9 bellhousing SROD to T5 swap when he pulled apprat and measured the one year only E1 T4 bellhousing.

So that was total proff of the track Ford was heading.


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...nversion-PIC-s

I had originally planned on turning up a new bushing out of bronze on my lathe and to install the SROD in my Fairmont. Well after a little browsing, I found out that the SROD bell also has the T5/T4 BW pattern cast into the face (I had known about the V8 bells being the same way, but didnt put 2 and 2 together til I read it here). Being that I had my 2.3T T5 transmission clean and sitting in my shop, I did the wise thing, and scrapped the SROD.

Next step was to convert the Bellhousing over to the T5 pattern:

There were two forks in the 4-speed road, but thankfully Ford created them both in 1974, and had a brilliant game plan.

First was the traditional TopLoder bases gearbox, which was Borg Warner T10 /Super T10 style, and went towards the Tremec T170 SROD you have, and on to the TKO 6 speed and all the really great Mexican gearboxes.

The other was that 1974 SR-4 based gearbox in the 4, 6 and 8 cylinder Mustang II's, then the Fox 2.3/2.3 Turbos and, for one year, some rare, but not really rare, stickshift T4 trans option 3.3's for 81. Thats potentially any 3.3 option non SROD stick shifts, which are all short wheelbase 100.4" Foxes, Capri, Mustang, 105.6" Fairmont, Zephryr, but probably not the so called 105.6" wheelbase 1981 S bodies, the downsized Granada, lower Tier Cougar (not the S shell Baroque XR7 or T bird or Lincolns with the 108.4" wheelbase).

That seriously strange T4 3.3 option pre-dated and begat the T5 option for the 2.3 and 5.0's for the 1983 model year.

The Ford T4 existed as the demand for T5's absolutely sky rocketed from 10000 a year to over 40000 units a year by 1983 from AMC, Ford, GM, Isuzu, Datsun/Nissan.

The 4cylinder T5 input shaft bearing diameter and variation in the bellhousing depth TopLoader/SROD/ Tremec T170 was just a Ford thing based on production parts, there was normally a 17 mm TopLoader to BW T5 adptor that can be used if you don't wanna do the RacinNdrummin style tig welding and lathe work. ModernDriveLine sell them.

Because MDL are mindfull of miss-use, they don't talk much about this adaptor, as it creates cross competition between some much better other options.

It has three caveats to use. Go outside that, no warranty.



T-5 to Wide pattern Ford, 289/302/351 & 1967+

T-5 Adapter plate for a Ford SB 6 bolt bell housing or 8" wide pattern 3/4 speed. 6 bolt BH used on 1965 and later 289, 302, 351. Adapter also used with 1967 and later 200ci inline-6 bellhousings. Two new mounting holes required. Includes mounting hardware. Note: T5 means T5 from a "V8" car, not from a 4 cyl

Stock# MD-401-2102
Used on bell housings with these casting #'S
C5AA-6394-A
C5DA-6394-A
C9OA-6394-A
D2OA-6394-AA
C7ZA-6394-A (inline 6)

I want to be very clear that you should talk in the first instance to MDL.

[at_the_junkyard]

Thanks for the tip 82GT. Ideally I can find a complete T5 in good shape for cheaper...although those two things are usually a contradiction in terms

Learned a couple things since my first post after researching. I will need the T5 bellhousing to fit a 302, but my SROD housing is perfect for a 3550 upgrade...so perhaps I can sell it for some bucks if I find a T5 etc. Actually I think I have two of those bells...

Worst case for a few grand CDN I could buy brand new stuff and then sell mine to the kid...but neither of us can really afford that..haha. Good thing is I am in no hurry right now, as this will be a summer project, and could always go with the SROD...so I am willing to take a chance and dabble in some junkyard parts if I knew what to look for.

Also LMR sells an adapter plate to use a later model T5 which is interesting. I assume this may be to deal with the longer input shaft of the later models so perhaps this isnt a bad way to go. This is not going on anything with massive horsepower by any means. Has anyone tried this adapter plate É

Also, I read the SROD uses a different speedo gear than the C4 or T5...so might need to figure that out as well.

Cheers

[at_the_junkyard]

Xctasy, thanks for the link on the SROD bell modifications. Certainly an interesting possibility...as I am pretty sure I have two of these.

[Haystack]

Sn-95 t-5 bolts right up. I used a f150 clutch/flywheel. Cost me right around $400 all in.

[at_the_junkyard]

Haystack, was it out of a V6 or V8 car and what bell where you using or did you use the adapter etc ?

[erratic50]

I'd go factory 83-93 Mustang T5 parts. You could go with an 11" clutch and flywheel setup if you want to get exotic but 10.5" from 1986-1993 is a great V8 car option.

No sense in making a Frankenstein.

[at_the_junkyard]

For sure, preferably I think I will try to find a decent T5 from the proper 83-93 vintage to avoid headaches. I am fairly confident I can modify the SROD bell to fit the T5 as per the link to save me buying another...and I have a spare.

It does still intrigue me though with the SN95 swap (as per Haystacks post) as to what fits and what doesn't. From what I have read since and understand is that the SN95 3.8 bell and tranny will bolt up to the 302 block but then you need to find (or buy) a larger diameter 164 tooth flywheel (with 50 oz balance) so that the starter will engage properly...like out of an F150 etc.

I checked 80's F150 on Rockauto and it seems stock 164 tooth flywheel and clutch can be purchased new for reasonable as well...and yes this is a bit Frankenstein for sure...and junkyard transmissions are certainly a bit of a gamble. Thing is 90's V6 mustangs are way more plentiful and a tranny can be had for around $100-150 with a 30 day exchange or credit etc.

Is this essentially correct or am I way out to lunch here ?

[Haystack]

Nope, you are right.

3.8 bell, f-150 clutch, nothing fancy. I reused the aod bell housing bolts, crossmember driveshaft, everyrhing from the aod. I used a 2001 which is basically as strong as the fox gt trans. Picked it up for $150 and beat the living crap out of it. The 3.8 bell does have a lower position on the clutch fork, but it used a regular cable and cleared my ypipe with no mods.

The 98 up used a fully digital speedo though. Guess it's pretty easy to just swap on a speedo gear.

[at_the_junkyard]

Good info thanks. I assume the shifter sits back about a 1/2" farther in the tunnel with this setup ?

I would have never guessed that stuff would essentially fit together...makes for some interesting possibilities.

I agree, and as you say, it appears the later T5's in the V6 cars were improved and rated for just as much torque as the older V8 models, and there seems to be a fair amount of info online about how to add a speedo gear to the later transmission output shaft as well.

Cheers

[Haystack]

If looking at the older 28oz imbalance, use a newer 5.8 flywheel/clutch or most older full sized fords got the 164 tooth flywheel. Really not a big deal either way. I did a f-150 clutch because it was almost 1/4 the price of an aftermarket 164t flywheel and 11" clutch and I was on a budget and time constraints, plus 4 or 5 years ago when I did the swap, I couldnt find any info on it.

The starter is another thing you gotta watch out for. Flywheel will be either 3/8" offset, or 3/4" offset. Mustangs and most automatics use the 3/8" offset while trucks and some manual trans use the 3/4" offset, or the other way around, I get them mixed up now. Also, the hole in the sn-95 bellhousing for the starter is mini starter sized. You could use an old starter, but you would need to grind off the webbing so it sits flat.

The shifter doesnt seem to be any further back, and the transmission doesnt seem to be any longer. I used a stock auto shifter plate since I couldnt find the manual one. The auto shifter plate is almost 1/2 the size of a manual one, but it fit fine and required zero mods to fit, and fit fine in a factory center console, but this was in a tbird, not a mustang.

[erratic50]

Stock foxbody mustangs with a T5 are around 1/2" shorter than SN95 T5's. The factory setup required removal of some metal on the front of the shifter opening when converting an automatic car to manual. Trimming is needed to clear when shifting into 1st, 3rd, and 5th gear.

To add provisions for a gear driven speedometer you have to remove the shifter, drive out the shift rod pin, and remove the bolts on the tail housing. You need a housing with speedometer gear opening. Now is the time to double check your tail shaft bushing and seal.

AFAIK - The plastic gear needed may be there on the shaft on early T5's with speedometer hole delete. Usually you need to add one. The 7T yellow will give you the best speedometer gear calibration options.

All this said, personally I would not waste my time with a stock V8 T5 or a stock SN95 V6 T5. Having killed so many myself over the years with a near stock E6 head 86 5.0L, I look for the stronger setups. I would go T5Z or 1993 GT updated with a one piece bearing retainer.

or if your wallet allows go Viper spec T56 6 speed kit for fox body from D&D.

whatever you do, be sure you prep the chassis properly as T5's do not tolerate bad mounts, wheel hop, shaft imbalance, extra heavy flywheels, cheap weakly sprung clutches, etc.

[Haystack]

Help me out here, where does the sn-95 t-5 hide this extra length? Cause then my aod driveshaft would have been too short, the shifter wouldnt have fit, oh and the sn-95 stangs would have had to have a different driveshaft. Kinda funny they are all the same length in the catalogs.

I put 80k miles or so on my $150 craigslist t-5. I beat the crap oit of it. In 8 months I broke 6 drivers side motor mounts two passenger side motor mounts. I actually broke every motor mount bolt off in the block. I had 275/60's on 10 holes, and I tried to spin the tires everytime I stopped at a light or stop sign and I chirped it on every down shift engine breaking on the freeway. If it broke, I wouldnt have blamed it. Then I would have been out a whole $75 and a afternoon wrenching at the pick and pull.

I iust checked, theres 12 sn-95 mustangs at my local yard, bet 10 of them are 3.8's and probably 4 or 5 have a t-5 in em.

[erratic50]

I'll ignore the tone above as I can read it two ways and answer the question.

I don't have one of each input shaft but have seen the comparison shot before.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/94-9...ge=1&_k=ciytxg

I see now I've lumped together SN95s of the 94-95 v8 and the 94-95 and 1996+ v6 together a bit in this thread.

As for discussion on drive shaft length, it would either be OK or it would bottom out in the slip yoke on rear suspension bump because it's too long. There is no possible way it would be too short in this case. Driveshafts get too short if the wheel base of a donor car is shorter than what it's going into. Or if the overall dimension of the transmission is shorter than what it is replacing.

Regards.

[at_the_junkyard]

Thanks for the extra info on the swap.

FYI...I phoned MDL today and confirmed the plate shown above will adapt the 79 SROD housing as suspected. With this plate of course you need the longer input shaft on the T5. I also phoned some local rebuild shops that advertised rebuilt T5's and they had nothing at all...as suspected.

I am now leaning towards purchasing this adapter, using the SROD bell, clutch, starter that I know will fit good (and already have) and looking for a V6 mustang tranny to use. Thing is I can wait to purchase the adapter if and when I find a tranny etc.

The trick will be finding a good T5 but better chance finding a cheaper unit on the V6 cars even if it takes a couple of them etc.... or I might have to get into learning how to rebuild a T5, the internet says they are easy

[Broncojunkie]

I'm running a 99-04 v6 t5 in my 88gt with working mechanical speedo. I swapped the tailshaft housing and added the speedo drive gear. I also swapped over my fox input shaft and retainer and used the fox bell. I'm doing a similar deal with my pace car, but plan on using the 3.8 bell and 11" clutch setup (f150). I would suggest going this route simply because you have a better chance of finding a good used t5 if it came out of a v6 car. Plus, they are rated just as strong as the later v8 t5. You shouldn't have a problem finding a used tailshaft housing, as lots of guys have trashed their t5's lol. You can also add a couple upgrades while you have the t5 apart. Billet steel cluster shaft retainer, steel input shafts retainer, and shimming the main shaft to zero end play (or slight preload).

Watch the YouTube videos on the T5 rebuild. Eric the Car Guy put it out with a guy who knows these transmissions.

[Haystack]

I'll ignore the tone above as I can read it two ways and answer the question.

I don't have one of each input shaft but have seen the comparison shot before.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/94-9...ge=1&_k=ciytxg

I see now I've lumped together SN95s of the 94-95 v8 and the 94-95 and 1996+ v6 together a bit in this thread.

As for discussion on drive shaft length, it would either be OK or it would bottom out in the slip yoke on rear suspension bump because it's too long. There is no possible way it would be too short in this case. Driveshafts get too short if the wheel base of a donor car is shorter than what it's going into. Or if the overall dimension of the transmission is shorter than what it is replacing.

Regards.

Too bad, I was replacing a longer transmission from a car with a shorter wheel base, yet it sat in exactly the same place, less then 1/4" difference as seen on my swap thread, which I attributed to suspension travel, being as I gutted about 250lbs from the car. I had t-5 and sn-95 parts on hand and measured them, came up with the same overall length and shifter location.

Im so glad I was ignored, being someone who has done it, had the parts in hand, drove it, and made it work, but thats okay, you read a 9 year old thread on the corral.

Guess ill just blindly turn an eye to reality and ignore someone else who has experience on a subject that was.being asked, for some 10 year old corral thread.

Ignorance is bliss.

[at_the_junkyard]

Hey just to update this thread for any others out there that are contemplating doing this conversion. There are may different combinations of parts that I could have went with but this is the route I took.

Since Feb I went on the hunt for junkyard T5's out of V6 mustangs and ended up getting one out of a 98 that looked pretty decent. They were cheap like $140 at the picknpull so couldn't resist. Since I had the SROD bell and the stock 10" clutch parts already I decided to get the MDL adapter plate so the V6 T5 would bolt right in with the extra input shaft length. The adapter plate fit perfectly only needing to drill a couple holes in the bell and fasten.



The extra length placed everything slightly back in the shifter hole which for some reason actually made it fit more in the center (actually better IMO). I trimmed the hole slightly to allow for a little extra clearance around the shifter cap and re-drilled some holes to use the 98 lower boot and the 1980 upper boot and it all bolted down nicely. It fits with the boot in the console great and I even had a spare manual bezel to pop in there to finish it off.



The extra length pushed the trans mount to the very back limit of the stock crossmember holes. I originally did a small modification to make it fit but ended up buying a stifflers crossmember for 79-81 for T5 and it fit perfect, with the mounting bolts landing right in the center of the crossmember adjustable holes etc. A nice piece especially for this conversion.

The C4 driveshaft was way too long so I had it shortened by 2" and balanced at a driveline shop for about $200. The rear end we already changed to an 8.8 from the 7.5 otherwise probably would only need 1.5" shorten etc.

I also lucked out and found some pedals and bought a new proper length clutch cable. I rigged up and mounted a magnetic position switch with relay to use as a clutch safety switch and spliced into the starter wiring. This was mainly because I had visions of the car going through the garage door when the kid forgot to push in the clutch on a cold high idle morning...bound to happen

Everything went together great and my son really likes the 5 speed...once he learned how to drive it..haha !!

An overall successful conversion for reasonable amount of dollars. Luckily the T5 from the picknpull was decent shape otherwise it would have added some more $$ for sure. No doubt its got some miles on it but no issues so far since May. The engine is a stock 302 so I am pretty confident it will hold up unless abused etc.

Thanks for all the input from the forum. Once again it was the helpful information I needed to have the knowledge and confidence to tackle it once i knew what to look for and what would fit.

Cheers

[Haystack]

Glad it worked out for ya. I want to appologize for my tone earlier in this thread. I was told by a bunch of people that the sn-95 setup wouldnt work at all and ive been called a liar about using it more then once, so im a bit defensive about it. (Btw, my aod driveshaft sat 1/4" further out with the sn-95 length then it did with the aod. At one point i did have a fox and sn-95 t-5 side by side, and i couldn't tell the difference).

Glad it worked out for ya, hope some of my info did help some.

[erratic50]

Glad it worked out!

[xctasy]

LOL, that dang 0.67" or 17.018 mm's! The difference between a 7.18 and 7.85" input shaft.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml

The SR4/T4/T5 was purposely changed to be 17 mm longer than the TopLoader, T170 SROD and the imported German ET78. The crank pilot adaptor on the German 2.8's and some 2.3's was also 17 mm just to make sure everything worked.

Somehow, Ford knew what they were doing.

With Fords, its about talking through it, and understanding what goes with what.


That MDL 401-2102 adaptor is a truly strange device, but its gotten so many people outta the State Highway 1+ so people can visit the other Highways with over driven T5's. One guy imported a 1985 EFI 4.1 SIX form Australia to put in his 66 Mustang. He used the Aussie bellhousing, and some guy told him to bolt it on,


T5 attached to the Crossflow top-loader
bell housing using a T5 adaptor plate

https://fordsix.com/ci/XFswap.html

2/15/01
The T-5 adapter from California Pony Cars arrived today. It's simply a cast plate which locates the tranny in the bell housing, spaces the tranny out by about 3/4", and gives you a T-5 bolt pattern. The adapter requires that you drill two holes and tap one to mount the adapter. After that it just simply goes together!

and the http://calponycars.com/1964-1973-cla...a-650-526.html version

[at_the_junkyard]

Yes, all the information helped me to sort it out for sure.

There were many different options I could have done. In hindsight I could have got a normal T5 bell and then changed the input shaft on the tranny with a new retainer etc. This might have saved me buying a crossmember and adapter but would have to purchase a T5 bell and input shaft kit etc...which may have ended up being more $$...and now I have a new cooler looking crossmember !!

The other option would have been able to use the 3.8 bell but then would have to purchase a new 11" flywheel, clutch, and mini starter and hope that nothing got in the way etc. I was also worried about the right mesh on the starter gear (as per Haystacks comments)

I still had to shorten the C4 driveshaft regardless what I did so the extra length wasn't that big a deal.

I am actually considering getting another V6 T5 to rebuild for my other cobra with the shorter input shaft to replace my 83 NWC. I checked out the T5 rebuild videos as mentioned (excellent IMO) and it looks straight forward enough that I might be willing to tackle that now.