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  1. #1

    Default Failed CA Smog with High HC, 1985 5.0 CFI with E6 heads

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    Pretty much stock other than E6 swirly heads and an aluminum triple core.

    Things I did before going in:

    New Air filter.

    Oil Change and filter. 20w-50. Also added that honey stuff to thicken because suspect
    possible valve guide or seal leakage, oily threads on a few plugs and very light carbon build-up on 2 plugs.
    Cleaned and re-gapped(.050) other plugs, R/R the 2 carbon ones. All plugs two years old max.
    Autolite copper cores.

    Cleaned rotor and cap and reused. light carbon. Only 2 years old, low miles.
    Ford Racing 9mm Wires are all good. Installed 4 yrs back.

    Battery voltage 12.4, on the margins but I think there is a good spark.

    Fuel treatments: used STP fuel cleaner on a tank then another one & then finally Cataclean for the 4 yr old CAT.

    Filled up with Chevron techron midgrade.

    filled tires to max.

    Went in on a humid day around 60 degrees.

    Engine runs great, idles smooth, torquey with the swirly heads.

    That said, I have needed to replace Cats way too often, perhaps every 4 years to pass. gettin $$$ pricy.

    Air pump, tad/tab and 02 sensor all good last time checked, few yrs back.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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  2. #2

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    When I lived in CA, I dreaded a Smog check. Even if the engine is completely stock, they seem to fail (I actually feel a lot of the Smog shops in CA are a Scam). There were many times the car would pass the actual test with good results, but fail the visual test because some part didn't have an EO, or some other BS, and the tech won't tell you anything until the test is completed so they can charge you and tell you the car failed (and repair the so called fail and make more off your $50.00 smog check).
    And now you have to get CATs which have to be certified by the state of CA, and the last time I looked only MagnaFlow sold them. When I had to purchased a set, they were around $400.00, but not it looks like they are a lot more then that now. What I ended up doing was installing the MagnaFlow Cats, did the smog check, removed the Magnaflows sell them to get most of the money back, install a set of aftermarket cats that worked on the first smog check that failed the visual test.
    1985 Ford LTD LX
    1989 Mustang 5.0 Coupe
    1994 Ford F150 Lightning

  3. #3

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    A few things that I see here:

    Battery voltage 12.4, on the margins but I think there is a good spark. (I hope this isn't with the engine running if it is it is bad. What is the voltage with it running?)

    That said, I have needed to replace Cats way too often, perhaps every 4 years to pass. gettin $$$ pricy. (This is a symptom of something else wrong not the cause)

    Air pump, tad/tab and 02 sensor all good last time checked, few yrs back. (How did you test the system to know they are good?)

    There is no mention of codes. Did you check for any?

    Is the thermactor system connected and working? Since the heads have been changed to E6 did the thermactor tube that connects both heads together get installed? It is critical that this system be working properly. Based upon computer settings, the air pump directs air into the heads and catalytic converter to reduce HC's. It is very common for these tubes to be completely blocked. Here is a link that is very helpful:

    http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-foru...r-tube.880375/

    Let's us know what you find out and good luck.
    1986 T-Top GT
    Bringing back to life - almost done
    2R paint

  4. #4

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    I don't have any experience with CA that will help you but I do know those Motorsport wires are Chinese garbage. I have never seen a set last 4 years so I would probably start with throwing those off the highest bridge I could find. Is this new to you or did the car pass last year? If it did pass, what has changed on it since then?
    I may have missed it but I don't see anything about verifying the timing is right and I would also go over all the vacuum lines with a fine tooth comb as they say.
    Last edited by homer302; 02-06-2017 at 11:24 AM.
    Liberty once lost is lost forever.

    John Adams
    July 7, 1775

  5. #5

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    Thanks everyone for the quick responses:

    KOER volts are fine 14.x volts with alternator normal. battery around 12.3, needs a charge.

    Installed a new thermactor tube 4-5 yrs ago & mounted to the two e6 heads, no issues there.
    I went through the whole smog pump system. replaced one of the stuck valves. ran engine, checked vacuum valves & with
    hoses pulled off to see where the air was going or diverting, everything was good, following guidelines from the web.
    O2 sensor was tested with a volt meter as I drove around, numbers were dancing around a lot but within specs.

    Today ran some codes. KOEO = Code 11~ ALL GOOD! Then ran KOER and got these codes 72 & 73. maybe bad MAP sensor.
    TPS is only 5 yrs old but maybe out of adjustment.

    My question is when I do an OBD1 code test and the light signals for WOT do I actually floor the throttle? or just throttle
    until signaled to stop? Using a test light.

  6. #6
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Totally agree on the FMS wires. They are junk. Check the leads for corrosion. I chased an occasional miss on my son's 86 ragtop for months - found it once I took off the wires to replace the cap simply because I was out of ideas. Use some electric grease on the connections as this helps seal out moisture. Spray out the inside of the distributor cap with silicone or WD40 once you clean it - this also helps take care of any moisture. Look at your rotor - if there are is any visible pitting on the edge, replace it with a good one Make sure it has solid tension against the cap electrode. Make certain your coil wire is in excellent condition - these tend to burn up on hot days, believe me!

    I got my hands on some correct date coded NOS 1986 wires a few years ago. I resistance checked all of them along with my original high mile 86 wires. The best of the bunch got cleaned up and that's what I have on my car -- it runs great. I've ran many other types of plug wires over the years too - just be sure you're getting good quality. Resistance vs factory specs tells the story on quality for sure.

    Make sure you are using 86 specific plugs if you're running high swirl 86 heads. If you don't you'll have problems getting it to pass for sure.

    Volt check your throttle position sensor for sure! also check for vacuum leaks as that will mess up your fuel maps on speed density cars which can cause a rich condition.

    Usually when a map goes bad the car simply won't run but its worth a check.

    Double ckeck your base timing - not enough advance will cause it to run fat at idle and fail. I would loosen the distributor with the advance stub installed and turn it until the motor just starts to speed up then back ever so slightly. Double check your setting by turning it off and starting it while its warm. If it kicks back against the starter and makes it crank hard, take some advance back out. An advanced base timing results in a nice lean and clean burn. Its worth the money to get a wideband A/F when dealing with this stuff IMO.

    Double check your throttle body air inlet adjustment. Many old foxes don't really love to idle under 1000 and can stumble about a little if you make them. Turn the idle up until your vacuum gauge is nice and smooth-- remember vacuum is what influences fuel maps on a speed density car. This is one of the little known tricks I did that allowed me to get away with running a slight cam in my speed density car for years, even while in California and dealing with their emissions BS back in the late 90's with a 200K mile 86 GT.

    When looking at your A/F, both additional timing and additional air often really clean them up.

  7. #7

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    Ok so the head cross over tube is good how about the tube that goes to the cats? Is it plugged?

    When you did the cats 4 years ago were they new CA compliant cats? I guess they must be at least CA compliant or it would have failed the visual or he didn't check!

    Be careful on setting base timing. The limit is base timing +/- 3 degrees. You can fail for this.

    I can't help you on the WOT code test I have a code reader.

    Good luck
    1986 T-Top GT
    Bringing back to life - almost done
    2R paint

  8. #8

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    E6 heads are way worse then the older or newer head. Probably the most restrictive head made.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  9. #9

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    The tube is clear at least at the top but I will make sure it is to the cat. Cat is compliant and he did check!
    He took so long to check it, it cooled it down..............I think they want me to fail it, just to take the fee.
    I don't mess with base timing, just keep it factory spec. Guess I will just keep trying codes. Too many CATS cooked
    but if I put another in I will most likely pass, at least until next time. Could it be from leaky valve guides/seals over time
    baking & carbonizing the cat?

    What is A/F?

  10. #10

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    A/F - air to fuel ratio
    1986 T-Top GT
    Bringing back to life - almost done
    2R paint

  11. #11
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Reality is the timing needs to be where the engine likes to run. Many times the timing marks are a country mile off. Sometimes it's a bad balancer sometimes it's a deformed cover. It's the same on all cars. And the reason I always put adjustable marks on my cars and mark my balancers when I rebuild them-- not that I've touched my 5.0L yet. My 1974 351W was very badly off, etc.

    whats funny about E6 heads is yes they were more restrictive at peak and added swirl but the cars running them in purely stock form T5 2.73:1 or 3.08:1 rear gear lined up with a matching option for option E7 equipped told an interesting story. The car the E6 would end up beating an E7 equipped completely stock car at the drag strip by about 1/2 a car every time there are consistent drivers in both cars and they were clean passes.

    the reason is they had more area under the curve on their power delivery because of the 9.2:1 compression combined with the slightly less restrictive header at the pinch welds on many 86's compared to later years. I've had a few apart and they was always less to try to cleanup with a Dremel to try to coax out some flow. Usually the upper intake mated to the lower and lower to heads more accurately on the 86's too. Also the tune on the SD computer of 86 helped as the timing had more effect thanks to the swirl bumps which caused low to midrange torque increases - and they were often just enough.

    In the major publications of the time only the 86 got beat was an 86 SVO with 3.41:1 (?) gear option when it was spooled in staging, bumped in, and ran in anger. Also the 1993 Cobra with T5Z and its gears and all its mods did show better ETs in some tests. Few things of the era beat the 86 5.0L HO cars as tested in stock form. I read a TON of articles at the time and I do not know know of any examples where there weren't other nonstock variables in play that this statement is untrue.

    ET wise, the 86's initially responded better to the 5 minute driveway tuneup too. You may all remember it - unbolt the intake silencer and drop it inside the fender, add a KN filter, advance the timing to where it likes it. They were a bit more touchy on timing and couldn't be advanced quite as far without problems but they ran leaner across the revs and very well overall when done right. The E7 cars if upgraded to 65MM TB and 70 MM MAF (if equipped) often still lost if nobody bothered to address the crappy welds in the headers causing more restriction. Sometimes the intake mating surfaces were also a factor. And let's face it - some just ran better than others.

    Im not sending an invitation to get pounded and I know it's possible to see negative commentary. What I'm simply saying is some of us may well remember the history of the cars as an enthusiast in the many period articles we read. If you read the ones I read, what I said is accurate. If you read others and disagree because of the others, please feel free to share them! I'd love to see those articles I missed too. Just please do so without being cruel.

    This all said its so rare to find any of the fox body EFI cars in unmolested factory state that it hardly matters anymore. Maybe some twisted form of strange bragging right?? Lol.

    Car and Driver and Motortrends both tested these cars nearly every year. Their period tests are two examples. If memory serves hotrod and even car craft had stuff to say about the results at the time. Stock mustang performance went backwards for a time with the E7's starting in 87 even with the peak power ratings saying otherwise. It improved over time but it wasn't until the 1993 Cobra that the SVO lost its crown and the 86 lost its status if only talking about 5.0L's. And some totally option stripped 86 LX notch results still bested the 1993 cobra.

    I've personally seen 86's go to the track with only a few thousand miles on them back when they were new and run mid 13's. A few freaks of nature even ran in the 13.30's. Over 14 or 14 flat to 13.85 was a lot more common - albeit just driver skill and knowing where to shift them tells the story. Guys not getting in position to shift by 4600 were just making noise as they were all done by 4700.

    Man I don't miss stock performance! For the time being mine is still running E6's but has lots of other mods - intake, headers, etc, to help it. I full power shift it at 6100.....

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlkStangCon1985 View Post
    I don't mess with base timing, just keep it factory spec. Guess I will just keep trying codes.
    Is this code for "I have no idea what the timing is set at" I guess? Did this car pass smog last year? Have you changed out those Motorsport wires yet?
    Liberty once lost is lost forever.

    John Adams
    July 7, 1775

  13. #13
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Well said homer302. Was that the "can you believe this" the girl on the commercial says about her new car or the same words muttered by the poor guy with the stripped new car? Lol.

    Timing chains do relax over time. This gradually retards the cam which is great for up top power but bad for idle quality and low end torque. This gradually retards the ignition in concert with the cam which is a double whammy.

    Its important to get the timing set properly for how it wants to run right now.

    My son's 1986 rag top was acting like it was a dog when he got it. We cleabed the throttle body and upper intake with cleaner used as Ford directed and it helped, but when I adjusted the timing it woke up big time. It could barely do a burnout when we started. Now it is back to getting 3rd gear rubber when ran through the gears-- running like it's supposed to. Gas mileage went up 4 mpg when he keeps his foot out of it too!

  14. #14

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    Hey Homer, What is the timing?

    Passed last time by 1 hydrocarbon ppm, 105 @ 15mph. Too close!

    Are we talking about the same wires? I have Ford Racing performance parts M-12259-R301, 9mm, assembled in Mexico. Same as Motorsport?
    I thought they were good. I will check resistance. And I have the EEC-IV TFI Ignition coil which has a lot of punch.

    Timing is at 10 degrees BTDC. factory spec. -Just for smog test. I need to check total timing...

    Thanks for the info!!!

  15. #15

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    If e6 heads were so much better bottom end, the would have been thrown on the f-150's and stayed on the mustang. The kept the e6 heads until 1991 on all low po cars like the crown vic. In it pretty wildly noted a 10-15hp increase and was one of the only changes between the 86 and 87-88 sd cars along with a slightly larger throttle body.

    The only "performance" category you might get in stock form is a very slight bump in compression. After 15 years of being a member on foxtbirdcougarforums, I have not seen one person that was disappointed with the cost and work involved to get rid of the e6 heads, before or after a basic h.o. Upgrade. But hey, what do I know. I wasnt even alive when the e6 heads hit the streets.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  16. #16
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Now we're talking like Ford seriously had their crap together back then. That's not the case. Ford did lots of oddball and even dumb stuff. Recently the supposedly original ford tooling 79-86 dash pads came out and they were totally wrong - fairmont and monarch dash pads even.

    Happy or sad will depend upon the eye of the beholder. The moment you throw in any mods at an E6 or an E7 what I said above becomes irrelevant. It's a stock vs stock conversation.

    Low and mid torque production was higher on E6 head 5.0's due to high swirl. Area under the curve is an across the rev range and not a peak thing.

    And yes - 1986 flat tops yielded 9.2:1 vs 87-95 notched pistons yielded 9.0:1.

    I was paying careful and close attention when the HO roller cams hit the scene, EFI HO's came out, when the aero restyling happened, when MAF hit CA and when it hit nation wide, when the forged pistons went to the sideline, etc.

    But let's take another angle on it. My terrible E6 heads couldn't have been THAT bad based upon my car's performance.

    I raced and beat a lot of 87-93 LX, GT, and even Cobras in the early 90's with my car. Especially is they wanted 1/8 mile. Most of the guys I ran were all stock, some weren't. Camaros and Fiero GTs and even corvettes and 3000GTs and Stealths and Javin got their turn too.

    The why is talked about relating to E6 heads in lots of articles like this one: https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...-times.773762/ And yes it does say the E7's recorded faster 1/4 mile times there. Never saw that personally but - shrug.

    the low 13's I ran back then was plenty quick on the streets - enough to take down the best of the 60's era muscle cars in stock form too and I beat plenty both down the strip and top end. I rarely ever ran guys with slicks on street tires as that's like taking a knife to a gun fight but there were a few where I knew I had enough for them.

    Mine has a slight cam upgrade but nothing that upset the speed density I ran for years so it's not much. Headers were stock 86's cleaned up at the flanges. Intake was gasket matched but that's about all. Timing was set on full tilt.

    If E6's are completely hopeless there is no way anyone could make any power at all with them, let alone out 0-60 the rest of the fox bunch. And my point is no performance with E6 just is not the case.

    I do agree that the moment you start adding parts the E7's have an advantage but that doesn't mean an E6 is tapped out from the factory. It's not the limiting factor nor are E7's.

    Now for the rest - if any of us are swapping heads these days I would hope it won't be for anything like an E7's. I own an entire 90 HO motor that's completely stock with 30K miles on it. Guaranteed when it goes into my car it won't have any E6 or E7 heads on it!! Or GT40 or GT40P or GT40-X, etc. My first love is AFR and Twisted Wedge but I got a great deal on Edelbrocks so they are on the shelf. That will add a lot more than any silky old Ex or GTx could.

    That's not to say all ford heads are bad. Not by a long shot. The ported DOOE heads I had on my 1974 351W did the business and then some. Cleveland heads are also out of this world too if you want to build a Clevor hybrid setup.
    Last edited by erratic50; 02-16-2017 at 02:06 AM.

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