Mid 80's Mustang vs Camaro

[rose62]

The third gen Camaro always beat the fox's in magazine comparo handling tests. On paper they should have been much closer. The Ford had rack-and-pinion (the Chevy didn't, I think) and strut suspension (the Chevy did). They probably had significantly higher center of gravity but is that the main difference? What is the most effective mod to improve the Ford, besides high dollar tires?

[wraithracing]

The first improvement should be full length subframe connectors (weld on only!) such as Maximum Motorsports http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...bare-P580.aspx that will allow the suspension to actually work rather than dealing with the flexible unibody.

After that, it can be several items depending on your budget and your desires. Good wheels and tires can improve the handling such as lower profile and wider tires and tire type. Spring improvements will improve handling by lowering the CG and allowing less body roll, but you need to match your springs to your struts and shocks, so obviously performance struts and shocks are another option.

Bottom line is what are your goals? Improve the handling and ride of a daily driver? An occasional autocross/open track car or a full out road racer?

Start with improving the chassis by stiffening it and stopping the flexing.

Suspension improvement such as all new bushings including bushing upgrades and/or suspension component upgrades.

Springs/struts/shocks would be the next on the list.

After all that you can start looking at suspension alterations such as Torque Arm rear suspensions, Coil over suspensions, SLA front suspensions, etc.

[homer302]

The first improvement should be full length subframe connectors (weld on only!) such as Maximum Motorsports http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...bare-P580.aspx that will allow the suspension to actually work rather than dealing with the flexible unibody.

After that, it can be several items depending on your budget and your desires. Good wheels and tires can improve the handling such as lower profile and wider tires and tire type. Spring improvements will improve handling by lowering the CG and allowing less body roll, but you need to match your springs to your struts and shocks, so obviously performance struts and shocks are another option.

Bottom line is what are your goals? Improve the handling and ride of a daily driver? An occasional autocross/open track car or a full out road racer?

Start with improving the chassis by stiffening it and stopping the flexing.

Suspension improvement such as all new bushings including bushing upgrades and/or suspension component upgrades.

Springs/struts/shocks would be the next on the list.

After all that you can start looking at suspension alterations such as Torque Arm rear suspensions, Coil over suspensions, SLA front suspensions, etc.

All excellent advice Trey and I do not intend to discount any of it. But don't you agree that in regards to the OP question, the Camaro/Firebird have a more sophisticated rear suspension to begin with? They have a proper panhard bar and torque arm rear suspension, not just flimsy control arms. The lower center of gravity, wider track, wider tires from the factory and the more advanced suspension are the reasons they handle better IMO. My best friend always had IROCs and I have to admit like the OP, I was always jealous how much better they handled.

[Fastlane]

Ford sold more Mustangs then Chevy and the Camaro because it was cheaper, and most people really didn't know the difference when driving in normal conditions. For most people it comes down to looks and price, performance is secondary.
Today, the cheapest mustang can run circles around an 80's stock Mustang, Brakes and suspensions are so much better today. Looking at the Mustang and Camaro today, they are very close in over all performance.

[wraithracing]

All excellent advice Trey and I do not intend to discount any of it. But don't you agree that in regards to the OP question, the Camaro/Firebird have a more sophisticated rear suspension to begin with? They have a proper panhard bar and torque arm rear suspension, not just flimsy control arms. The lower center of gravity, wider track, wider tires from the factory and the more advanced suspension are the reasons they handle better IMO. My best friend always had IROCs and I have to admit like the OP, I was always jealous how much better they handled.

I didn't really respond the the F Body question as I didn't see how that would relate to improving the handling of the Mustang (Fox) chassis.

With that said, I had a 1984 Pontiac Trans Am back in college and autocrossed it, so Yes I have first hand experience with the F Body cars and their suspensions.

The F body torque arm setup was a better starting point than the Fox Quadra Bind IMHO. Unfortunately the F Body rear suspension had its own issues with the torque arm and the panhard bar being stamped steel. So once you started pushing the car to it's limits these parts began to show their flaws or fail all together.

The F body did have the wider track width that does help to provide better handling, but it wasn't until really 85 and later that they were offered with wider wheels 8" compared to 7" for the Foxes. The biggest difference was that GM went to the larger diameter 16" wheels while Ford stuck with the 15" until 1991. The lower profile tires plus the added width did give an advantage IMHO over the Foxes.

Now the F bodies did tend to weigh more than the Foxes which was not an advantage and the fact that the 350 was never offered from the factory with a 5 speed (87-92 cars) didn't help it when it came to autocrossing or road racing IMHO.

The early 10 bolt rear ends in the F bodies was a weak point just like the 7.5" Fox rear end, but just as Ford upgraded to the 8.8" the later model 10 bolts were stronger too.

I will admit that I am a huge Trans Am fan and have been since Smokey and the Bandit! The fact that my father was a Pontiac/Ford guy probably contributed my love for both. The 3rd Gen F Bodies were good cars in a lot of ways and did have benefits over the Foxes. I do believe the Foxes low cost and the great power to weight ratio helped it to become the legend that it is today and the plethora of aftermarket parts and pieces made it a force to be reckoned with.

[rose62]

Mine is stock and I don't intend to mod it. I was just wondering because I see so many foxes on the street that have obviously modded suspensions and I was wondering what most are doing. In regular driving my car is quite enjoyable. The brakes aren't too great. But again, I'm more interested in keeping it original.

[erratic50]

For a street fox that's driven in a spirited manner there are actually few parts under the cars that stay if you modernize it.

There is a widely accepted order to adding parts to foxes and all of them have well established results.

Maximum motorsports makes a vast supply of parts to help with the progression

Weld in full length subframe connectors as mentioned are critical.
Wider lower profile tires. (On 17" rims is common)
Strut tower brace
caster/camber plates
panhard bar
more closely matched rear springs compared to front
- 4 cyl LX rear for street
- stiffer aftermarket front springs for performance with perf adj shocks/struts
- coil over setups for track
better rear control arms - especially uppers for cornering - or torque arm
better lower control arms for acceleration
lower K member brace or aftermarket tubular

Then you get into newer era mustang parts retrofit
- SN95 spindles
- SN95 Cobra brakes
- 2004 Cobra rack

Etc

Ride height is one of the biggest factors that influences both performance and also street-ability.

Engine improvements that reduce the tendency for low RPM tire spin while increasing peak power and rev range also make a huge difference
rear gears matching the combo and conditions are also key

[erratic50]

Forgot to say it ..... There's also the lose cannon behind the wheel.

[Alex98sc10]

Mind me asking why weld in vs bolt in? Do not have enough experience or knowledge of welding to burn in a set of connectors at this point, bite the bullet and learn or am i going to be OK with bolt-ons?

The first improvement should be full length subframe connectors (weld on only!) such as Maximum Motorsports http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM...bare-P580.aspx that will allow the suspension to actually work rather than dealing with the flexible unibody.

After that, it can be several items depending on your budget and your desires. Good wheels and tires can improve the handling such as lower profile and wider tires and tire type. Spring improvements will improve handling by lowering the CG and allowing less body roll, but you need to match your springs to your struts and shocks, so obviously performance struts and shocks are another option.

Bottom line is what are your goals? Improve the handling and ride of a daily driver? An occasional autocross/open track car or a full out road racer?

Start with improving the chassis by stiffening it and stopping the flexing.

Suspension improvement such as all new bushings including bushing upgrades and/or suspension component upgrades.

Springs/struts/shocks would be the next on the list.

After all that you can start looking at suspension alterations such as Torque Arm rear suspensions, Coil over suspensions, SLA front suspensions, etc.

[wraithracing]

Mind me asking why weld in vs bolt in? Do not have enough experience or knowledge of welding to burn in a set of connectors at this point, bite the bullet and learn or am i going to be OK with bolt-ons?

No matter how tight you bolt in subframes, they will ultimately work themselves loose, wallow out the mounting holes and don't provide the strength of weld in units.

I highly recommend the MM full length SFC as they are the longest and fit the best of all the SFC I have seen. They are reasonably inexpensive too. If you don't have the tools or ability to weld in a set, call your local shops and even some muffler shops to ask about installation costs. Good Luck!

[cb84capri]

I have a third gen Camaro and a Mercury Capri. I feel the Capri is better suited to straight line performance and the Camaro is better suited in the handling department with their factory suspensions. Each car has its pros and cons... Ford engines cost more to build, Camaros require an expensive axle upgrade as the factory 10 bolts are problematic turds. Most people I know who go to road courses with their foxes are putting aftermarket f-body like rear suspensions under them, and spending a lot of money doing it. I like the third gens, and because it already has a panhard bar factory and torque arm getting aftermarket pieces isn't nearly as expensive. I have a full complement of Founders rear suspension parts going under the back of my f-body as soon as I get the hybrid Explorer 8.8" built. I'll be relocating the torque arm to a UMI transmission cross member so I don't break the tail housing on my t5, and have installed UMI weld in subframe connectors on it as well.

The third gens have conventional steering. Other than that the front suspensions are very similar.

Cale

[erratic50]

I've often considered having both just to push the buttons on the never Chevy or the never Ford guys of the universe. Personally I don't have a problem with it.

There are SO many directions this discussion could go that would offend someone and so few that won't.

I'm big on not insulting those who have worked for what they have and built it themselves. Don't get me wrong - I've never owned an import and hopefully never will. It's a personal decision, I just have always looked at what it does to the economy when dollars leave the country. Most others do it but I refuse.

[rose62]

http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/histo...rs-nelson.html

[RazorbackGT]

I was watching an episode of The Americans, for you al that don't know the show it is set back in early 80s. The KGB guy and his son are big Camaro fans and when the new F body came out in 82 he showed a newspaper ad to his son telling him it had over 400 HP. It made me laugh and pique my interest, so I googled the 82 Z28 and was floored. A paltry 145 HP! Unbelievable. And this was MotorTrend's car of the year. How times have changed.
I too was a huge Trans Am guy and at age 19 was going to custom order me a 86 TA. My friends all had IROCs, Vettes, and such. Well I went for a ride in another buddies 85 GT and the following week went and ordered me an 86 GT. Took 3 months to get it, 2 weeks to total it. Less than 1000 miles on it, a Chevy Blazer ran a stop sign, I hit him so hard, I knocked that Blazer a full block before it rolled onto its top. The last thing I remember seeing was this big ass speaker box he had in the back of that Blazer coming through the back glass of his hatch. That was 4th of July 1986. The following week I went and custom ordered my 2nd 86 GT, took 3 months to arrive, they told me it was the last 86 GT built, never knew if this was true or not but I like to think so.

[rose62]

In '82 I was at the shop of a buddy. His brother had installed a shift-kit in a new Z-28. I went with him for the test drive and about a mile out of town he did a u-ey. That car turned so flat that he and I both turned instantly to look at each other with a "did you feel that?" look. It was a trip. Earlier that year I had seen my first '82 GT. Didn't know the guy, but I flagged him down and asked for a ride. Didn't take long to bury that 85mph speedo, that's for sure. The Z couldn't touch it. Not even close.

[badnightrain]

just make sure the wheels are planted on something solid before you weld. car needs to be under its own weight. if you jack it up with wheels hanging the car will flex some and the doors will not close properly when it comes down.

[vxr500]

I've gone back and forth between f bodies and foxes. Best handling car I've ever had was 1990 Formula WS6. Handled better than my 97 Formula, 04 GTO, and pretty close to my dad's 00 Vette. And all I had done to it was boxed rr control arms, poly bushings, strut bar, and an iroc wonderbar. The shocks/struts/springs/sway bars/tire size were stock. Took turns flat as a pancake, and felt rockstable at 125.

My 84 GT with Motorsport springs, konis, subframe connectors, mm rr arms, Eibach rr sway bar, poly bushings, and 245/17s doesn't come close. But I don't mind. I'm older now and don't need to take corners at 50 mph!

[BTD]

Never owned a Z as I hated the IROC Flared Skirts - Had many firebirds, they don't handle for **** unless you go full bore into a corner and swing that weight around. You can have all the suspension you want, but when your weight is in the front and drive axle in the back you really gotta leannnn into it.

My Eagles can't even be compared to anything handling wise aside from a lotus spirit, tightest cars you will ever drive. Dodge and Mitsu got together and did something amazing on those little guys.

[rose62]

Lotus Espirit. Colin Chapman: "Add lightness."

[rose62]

So, there's nothing that can be done to elevate the Fox platform to a truly superior level? I mean, it doesn't hurt my feelings (LOL), considering that it started as a Fairmont platform and was then adapted to everything Ford made, except the F-150!

[vxr500]

Never owned a Z as I hated the IROC Flared Skirts - Had many firebirds, they don't handle for **** unless you go full bore into a corner and swing that weight around. You can have all the suspension you want, but when your weight is in the front and drive axle in the back you really gotta leannnn into it.

My Eagles can't even be compared to anything handling wise aside from a lotus spirit, tightest cars you will ever drive. Dodge and Mitsu got together and did something amazing on those little guys.

I disagree. I've had 4 firebirds, 2nd-4th gens, and aside from the 79 esprit, they were all real good handling cars. The later ws6 thirdgens were the best in my opinion, because of the lower center of gravity and huge sway bars. Front heavy rwd cars can handle just fine when properly set up.

Not sure what you mean by Eagle. Talon maybe? Those were quick cars for their time and handled good. My friend had an (91?) eclipse gs back in the day.. Aside from it falling apart at the seems while still new, it handled ok. I imagine the awd version was a little gripper, but probably not the standard for stellar handling. Never cared much for mitsus except for the Starion/Conquest-those were hot cars.

[vxr500]

So, there's nothing that can be done to elevate the Fox platform to a truly superior level? I mean, it doesn't hurt my feelings (LOL), considering that it started as a Fairmont platform and was then adapted to everything Ford made, except the F-150!

Not saying that, I'm sure you can spend a lot of coin and get a fox to handle way better than an f body. I'm just not willing to go that far. I kind of like the more comfy ride and driving position of the fox.

Talking about this stuff does remind me of a few run ins with my 90 Formula back in my 20s. Remember when I thought I could hang with a new NSX in a curved off ramp-wrong! Around 60 my tires started breaking loose.. he just kept on pulling. Now that car handled!

[homer302]

I think this is a great conversation and I certainly don't intend to belittle or demean anyone's opinion. But to me, if you are going to say "You can modify a Mustang to handle well" the comparison is out the window. If you throw out the entire factory setup and put panhard bars and torque arms in a Fox, you can get it to handle good. Well at that point, you no longer have a Fox to me. The fact is those F Body cars handle a darn sight better than the same era Fox Mustangs do. Can you cut up a fox and install through the floor subframe connectors in it and completely discard all the OEM suspension and install coilovers and panhard bars and an IRS in it and out-handle an F Body? Obviously you can but what are you really left with?

For the record, I have never owned a Camaro or Firebird of any generation and don't plan on ever owning one. I prefer the ride, style, reliability and ease of maintenance of the Mustang all day long. Ever put plugs in an F Body? Like a lot of you, I was around when all these were new and the Fox Mustang 5.0 is what you wanted at the stoplight and the F Body is what ruled the country 2 lane roads.

I never got to ride in one of those TSI Talons but I bet they are pretty sweet. I recall the AWD Stealths and the 3000 GT Mitsubishi too.

[ZephyrEFI]

I think driving position is a huge part of it. Seems like a GM thing, their cars always seem to sit lower. In the case of '80s Mustangs and Camaros, it seems like it might as well be a full FOOT lower you sit in a Camaro. It's a BIG difference. Recently when they did that IROC build on Detroit Muscle, i thought it was pretty interesting they came with torque-arm suspensions, since that's the hot-ticket Fox conversion.

I remember Chevy always having the handling advantage, but the Mustang won a lot of those comparisons because of it's better every day livability and other intangibles. The Mustang was just a better all-around car. I'm not a track guy of any kind, so I'm very happy with that. I think the '93 Cobra even won a comparo or two vs. the new fishmobile 4th gen F-car (the "F" is for "fish") despite the Cobra being totally outclassed in the power department.

[BTD]

For the Eagle , Yes definetly the Talon TSI. AWD Turbo 4, yes please. The tech of mitsu and engineering of dodge. Sold under 5 star motors.