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  1. #1
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    Default In the market for a new starter...

    I'm looking to upgrade to the smaller permanent magnet gear reduction starter like those used on 92+ Mustangs. Does anyone know of a manufacturer that uses American made starter drives? Or am I better off buying a cheapo like a Powerselect from Rock Auto, and then picking up a Victory Lap repair kit so it will have an American made starter drive in it? I'm sick of over paying for the same parts in a different box, and I don't like spending my money on crap either. My current starter had a Chinese drive gear in it that failed a couple years back...

    Also, is there any issues with jumpering the solenoid off of the starter cable, and keeping the rest of the system the same?

    Thanks,
    Cale

  2. #2

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    I walk around junkyards and look for mini starters people just left behind or even laying in the mud. Hose it off and wire it up. 10 minute job with the proper tools.

    The hole for the bolt is smaller on the stock cable, so drill it out a bit and good to go. Once it's all wired up, put the small trigger wire on the switched side of the solenoid and the bigger cable on the same side as the battery.

    Had much better luck with junkyard starters then parts stores. Think the last one cost me $9 with core.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  3. #3
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    If you simply jump the solenoid on the new mini starter to the battery cable, the starter can get stuck on and get trashed pretty quickly, probably taking the ring gear out with it. As haystack said, just move the starter battery cable from the switched side of the old solenoid to the battery side so it is constantly hot, and run a trigger wire from the old solenoid switched side to the trigger stud on the new starters solenoid. Very simple.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  4. #4
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    Default

    Brianj I'm talking about jumpering the solenoid on the starter off of the power feed to it, which is switched on/off by the fender mounted solenoid right now if that makes sense. I don't think it should be any more prone to sticking on than the stock configuration.

    Haystack, I was originally going to go the junkyard route, however the u-pull nearest to me with the best prices around here is a half hour drive each way, $2 entry fee, $19.99 for the starter, $7 for the core I don't want to return, and it's a swamp right now and they may not have a starter clean enough for this car. The Rock Auto starter can be in my hands for around $60, will be nice looking and clean, and nice for me to open up and go through.

    Cale

  5. #5

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    I'm not familiar with the newer starter you're referring to, but if their solenoid only does the same as older GM starter solenoids on the starters did/do, especially on vehicles with headers, where exhaust heat would cook and nearly or fully seize the solenoid from moving. The common fix is a Ford solenoid on the fender well and jumpering like you're saying. I did it myself with my '74 Pontiac. After a new camshaft got broke-in, the long tube headers thoroughly roasted the GM solenoid, and I added a Ford solenoid. On the subject, IMHO, newer, horizontally-acting Ford solenoids are designed for an earlier death (part of the problem with the GM style solenoids too) than the old long-lasting vertical-acting Ford ones where the plungers only had to counter gravity, not (with running clearance, are initially or eventually cylindrically-cocked) side loading too.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang
    1974 Pontiac LeMans

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  7. #7
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb84capri View Post
    Brianj I'm talking about jumpering the solenoid on the starter off of the power feed to it, which is switched on/off by the fender mounted solenoid right now if that makes sense. I don't think it should be any more prone to sticking on than the stock configuration.
    .

    Cale
    What happens- the starter starts the car (obviously ) and for a second, until the Bendex disconnects the starter motor from the flywheel, the motor actually spins the starter instead of the other way around. When you spin a motor, it acts as a generator. The starter will actually put out 12V. Since the power lead of the starter is jumped to the solenoid, it puts 12V to the solenoid, keeping the starter engaged.With the starter still engaged, more power going out--- it just keeps going until either the starter grenades or the teeth burn off the ring gear. It is usually a combination of both. It usually only happens when you start at a higher rpm than normal, like having it floored to clear flooding, but it COULD happen any time.
    Last edited by brianj; 01-12-2017 at 03:06 PM.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  8. #8

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    Guess im spoiled, closest junkyard to me is an hour each way, 2 for the one I like.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
    1 1987 cougar

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by cb84capri View Post
    Haystack, I was originally going to go the junkyard route, however the u-pull nearest to me with the best prices around here is a half hour drive each way, $2 entry fee, $19.99 for the starter, $7 for the core I don't want to return, and it's a swamp right now and they may not have a starter clean enough for this car. The Rock Auto starter can be in my hands for around $60, will be nice looking and clean, and nice for me to open up and go through.

    Cale
    Wise choice. A junk yard starter's brushes and "lubed for life" bearings might last years, or might last minutes.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang
    1974 Pontiac LeMans

  10. #10
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brianj View Post
    What happens- the starter starts the car (obviously ) and for a second, until the Bendex disconnects the starter motor from the flywheel, the motor actually spins the starter instead of the other way around. When you spin a motor, it acts as a generator. The starter will actually put out 12V. Since the power lead of the starter is jumped to the solenoid, it puts 12V to the solenoid, keeping the starter engaged.With the starter still engaged, more power going out--- it just keeps going until either the starter grenades or the teeth burn off the ring gear. It is usually a combination of both. It usually only happens when you start at a higher rpm than normal, like having it floored to clear flooding, but it COULD happen any time.
    I think you have a really good point and from what you're saying I think I may have figured out how to do it the way I want to. I never thought about the reverse current spike of shutting it off that would go to the solenoid. The only thing is that the starter shouldn't be able to be driven by the engine as they have a one way clutch incorporated into the drive gear. I think if I put some sort of a blocking diode inline in the jumper wire, I could do it the way I want to.

    Mike, this is the starter I'm going to buy:



    I think the solenoids are essentially the same as the GM ones. The gear reduction of these is supposed to make them a lot more powerful than the original style.

    Cale

  11. #11

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    When you let go of the key, there's no more solenoid connection. No more input voltage. The starter no go, no more. You're right about the one-way function. They're purpose-built like that. Even if the return spring for the drive were missing, flywheel contact/engagement after releasing the key shoves the drive back into the starter.

    Yep, that looks like the one I looked at briefly. If the drive gets kicked out, electromagnetically, like a regular Ford starter without an attached solenoid, then yeah, same difference, bypass-able, and will never ever be a heat-soaked-solenoid slow-cranking-starter issue like the older GMs. Yes, most beneficial on high compression engines for sure.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1966 Ford Fairlane sedan
    1966 Ford Fairlane GT
    1981 Mercury Marquis Brougham
    1980 Capri RS Turbo
    1971 Mustang
    1974 Pontiac LeMans

  12. #12
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    Install instructions from Ford. It's a PDF, so it will download if you click it, just to warn you.

    fordinstshtm-11000a50a75b50b75.pdf

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    Last edited by brianj; 01-12-2017 at 09:34 PM.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  13. #13
    FEP Member Mgino757's Avatar
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    Default

    I manage a Pep Boys store. I just bought a remanned unit from work for a 92+ 5.0 Mustang. I've been using the same starter for 3 years now with no issues at all. Best thing I have ever done to the car after having the old style burn up starter solenoids.
    1985 Mustang GT conv. modified 4180C, Weiand Street Warrior intake manifold, equal length headers, true dual exhaust, 3.55:1 8.8'' rear end, 180* thermostat, Ford Racing 10.5" clutch. Garage dweller.

    1998 Mustang GT auto. Stock and slow daily driver.

    1996 Thunderbird LX 4.6L V8. Wrecked, drag racing in heaven. RIP Oct 1995-March 24, 2016.

  14. #14
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    I never had a starter solenoid problem with the stock movable pole starter fortunately.

    I picked up the same starter Rock Auto was offering at Amazon.com for cheaper and had it in my hands in 2 days. Made in China just like the Motorcraft starters are, I bet it's the same only I didn't get ripped off as badly since mine came out of a plain white box. I heard the Motorcraft starters went to China because Ford is saving a tenth of a cent getting them from there over the US.

    Link to the starter:

    https://www.amazon.com/Discount-Star...cement+Starter

    I'm going to open it up in a little bit and likely throw the starter drive in it into the garbage, and make sure that this thing is put together properly.

    Cale
    Last edited by cb84capri; 01-20-2017 at 01:30 PM.

  15. #15
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    They are absolutely right, the starter drive stays out for a few seconds if you power the solenoid and motor from the same source. Looking around online, I can't find a suitable diode either. I know everyone tells me one thing, but I get these wild hairs and gotta look into alternative ways of doing things. I'm going to have to come up with a solution to wiring this because the battery side of my fender mounted solenoid is tapped out from all the other stuff I have in this car... I'm going to look into a positive battery cable with 2 big cables coming out. This is the whole reason I was trying to do it with the one cable.

    These pmgr starters are way easier to work on than the original movable pole style ones that came on these cars. This starter looks pretty nice inside, and is more simplistic in its operation than the movable pole style. I replaced the Chinese 10 tooth starter drive with an American made J&N 220-14041. Looks like Weldon 9524 is another American made drive available. I like that this starter uses a bearing instead of a bushing in the nose as well, as the bushing in my old starter nose was pretty worn out. The planetary set is very simple inside of it. I'm trying to fix my old movable pole starter just for a backup, but I think I screwed up a wire for the holding coil as it no longer wants to pull the movable shoe it. I'm getting some help from a friend who has a starter and alternator business. I shredded a Chinese starter drive in the movable pole starter a couple summers ago, he tells me it's common with Chinese starter drives. That's why I was bent on putting an US made drive into this.

    Cale

  16. #16
    FEP Member brianj's Avatar
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    I wish it wasn't true. My battery is going in my trunk, and to avoid a constant hot wire to the starter, the old solenoid is back there too. That means i need to run a signal wire to the old solenoid in the hatch, and one to the new starter at the engine, run off a relay since i don't want to power two solenoids off of the ignition switch through that much wire. Triggering only one starter solenoid, i could probaly get away without the relay.It's a giant PITA sometimes, but i REALLY don't want to have to rewire this car ever, ever again, so I'm going a bit overkill.
    1983 Mustang G.T. No-option stripper- I like strippers.
    5.0, GT40P heads, Comp Cams XE270HR-12 on 1.6 rockers, TFI spring kit, Weiand 174 blower, Holley 750 mechanical secondarys, Mishimoto radiator, Edelbrock street performer mechanical pump, BBK shortys, T-5 conversion, 8.8 rear, 3.73 gears, carbon fiber clutches, SS Machine lowers, Maximum Motorsport XL subframes, "B" springs.

  17. #17
    FEP Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Definitely, things are not made like they used to be.

    I did the same conversion on my 91 Ranger when I updated the clutch to the 10.5" 4.0L style. I bought the flywheel and starter used but they were OEM. The OEM starter lasted about 3 or 4 years before it was giving me problems. It died right when I needed my truck and could not afford the down time so I bought a reman one from Napa with a lifetime warranty. This was like 10 years ago. The first reman lasted 2-3 years before the solenoid went out. I found the receipt and NAPA replaced it for free. The next lasted another couple years before the solenoid went out again. This time I could not find the receipt because I did not put it back with the other receipts from my truck I did not want to spend another $125 so I dug the OEM one out from under my bench and took it apart. The brushes were worn out. So I took the brushes from the NAPA one and put them in the OEM starter. It has beem flawlessly till about 2 months ago. The truck would not start for my wife so I had to go rescue her. Acted like the battery was weak but there was 12.5 volts. Got it started, checked the alternator and it was putting out voltage. Drove it home and pulled the starter and took it apart. Brushes were worn out again. Ordered a set on-line for like $8 shipped. Waited three days and my truck was back on the road. I still have the NAPA starter by the way, just in case I find the receipt. I will take it back for a refund as the new ones are junk
    Last edited by Tigger; 01-24-2017 at 07:50 PM.
    67 Mustang Coupe
    96 Tangerine GT
    86 Saleen #179

  18. #18
    FEP Supporter cb84capri's Avatar
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    Yeah, trunk mounted batteries introduce even more problems. You probably aren't going to have any issues with a 12v hot welding cable going back to the engine bay though. I weighed out the pros and cons of relocating my battery, and the cons outweighed the pros for me. If they decide to be sticklers at the drag strip, they might not let you run without a kill switch on the back and there's no way I would ever put one on this car. The weight of the huge cable you have to run back to the engine bay is somewhat counter productive too, and I'd probably be running a big ground up to the engine as well.

    Tigger, I looked around on Amazon quickly. You might be able to find a starter mounted solenoid for around $16. Anything at Rock Auto is around $40.

    Cale

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