A/C Gurus: Help

[ZephyrEFI]

So, I had put my A/C kit that i bought on the back burner for a while. This is a Hose Wizards kit from LMR. The directions are hand-written, so i thought it would be handy to type them up. I discovered a couple of things that have me worried. Here are the directions.


First off, i have a Cooling Components electric fan that has a CFM rating of 2500. Do i need a new freaking fan now?! Here's a link to what i have (i think, not sure of the model #, but i believe most of their fans use the same motor)

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Coolin...-80,42296.html

I don't know if the 2500 CFM rating takes the high setting into account, as it is a 2-speed. The Cooling Components website does not even show a CFM rating for these. On a cursory search of Summit, all the fans that flow more than 4000 CFM are dual (and rather expensive).

Secondly, Glenn tells you NOT to use a thick aluminum radiator, and i just bought a SVE aluminum 3-core not thinking my current, crappy parts-store stock replacement radiator would be up to the job of cooling my car running A/C.

I'm not so much worried about their guarantee as i am about whether what i have is going to work.

Thoughts?

[wraithracing]

I have installed a couple of the Hoze Wizard systems over the years. Overall they work pretty well. Not as well as a full functioning R12 system IMHO. With that said, the biggest issues with R134 is the higher pressures the system runs. That and due to the inefficiency of R134 compared to R12 the condenser needs as much airflow as possible to work properly.

I won't say that your 2500 CFM won't work, but in this case more is better! I would recommend looking into the Contour dual electric fan or one of the late model Mustang fans such as the 03/04 Cobra. They will pull enough airflow to make it work.

The reason they say not to run a thick radiator again is air flow past the condenser. A thicker radiator will slow down the airflow and can cause your pressure reading to spike especially in stop and go traffic and during hot humid summer months. Now being in MN, that might not be as big a deal as say . . .Houston TX in August, but just be aware.

Personally I would keep the radiator and look into another fan option as that will be the best idea. Good Luck!

[KevinK]

If you are running an electric fan, its probably best to have it over-ride to high speed while the ac is on. Newer cars are configured to do this but most of the Fox bodies did not have electric fans so its not part of the car design. It can be simply done by adding a relay.

[ZephyrEFI]

If you are running an electric fan, its probably best to have it over-ride to high speed while the ac is on. Newer cars are configured to do this but most of the Fox bodies did not have electric fans so its not part of the car design. It can be simply done by adding a relay.

I believe my Dakota Digital fan controller is programmed to do just that, but I'll definitely check.

Trey, I hear you. It just annoys me I'm in this position. I emailed Cooling Components to see what they have to say about CFMs. Couldn't hurt to ask.

[ZephyrEFI]

I think I'm going to try and unload my SVE radiator. I just don't want to take any chances. I got it on sale, so i should be able to get my money back pretty easily. Sucks though. I guess I'll go for that OSC one i was considering. It's supposed to be only one core, just improved over stock.

Edit: the thing about those stock fans is, i'm a bit concerned they'll pull more amps than my 70 amp relays can handle. I'd rather not re-do my whole setup AGAIN if i can help it. Anyone have experience with that?

[wraithracing]

I don't believe you would exceed 70 amps on any of the stock fans. I have not put a meter on them, but I don't believe any of them pull over 50 amps. Besides most of them are 2 speeds now with the fan starting up on the slow speed and then kicking up to the high speed for A/C or heavy cooling. That helps with the initial amp draw since the fan is already moving. I can try and test one of my 03/04 cobra fans at some point, but it won't be until next week.

As for the radiator, I would stick with the SVE if it were me. I used a larger than stock radiator with my setups and didn't have any issues and this was down in central TX.

[ZephyrEFI]

I don't believe you would exceed 70 amps on any of the stock fans. I have not put a meter on them, but I don't believe any of them pull over 50 amps. Besides most of them are 2 speeds now with the fan starting up on the slow speed and then kicking up to the high speed for A/C or heavy cooling. That helps with the initial amp draw since the fan is already moving. I can try and test one of my 03/04 cobra fans at some point, but it won't be until next week.

As for the radiator, I would stick with the SVE if it were me. I used a larger than stock radiator with my setups and didn't have any issues and this was down in central TX.

That would be awesome, thanks. No rush, progress is very slow these days.

And thanks for the input. We'll see if anyone bites at the sale price. If not, I'll just keep it.

[ZephyrEFI]

AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnndddddd it sold. I had a feeling that might happen.

Still waiting to hear back from Cooling Components on the CFM of my fan.

[ZephyrEFI]

Alright, this is ridiculous. I was just doing some playing around with the search filters on Summit, and I can't even FIND an electric fan setup that fits on a Fox radiator (24"W x 19"H) and pulls 4000 CFM! It doesn't exist!

[ZephyrEFI]

Cooling Components emailed me back this morning. They say that my fan pulls 2600 CFM on high, and most other fans are rated 3-4 times higher than they are actually pulling. With my stereo background, it sounds like he's talking about his fan in terms of continuous watts (RMS) vs. other fans being rated in peak watts. It does make sense, Summit calls that rating "Max CFMs". I think i'm going to ride it out with my existing fan and get that improved design OSC radiator.

But, I still haven't talked about what stock fans pull for CFMs. There probably are not ratings out there anywhere i could reference, but i could casually start watching ebay for Contour, Taurus, and Mark VIII fans. Just in case. I'm planning on having the system charged by a shop, but nothing says i can't grab myself a set of cheap gauges and keep a watch on things going forward from time to time.

[Ethyl Cat]

I think you are making a mistake selling that radiator, Brad. The original one was designed for a certain hp and your is making more which will inevitably make the engine run hotter as it lags behind. Add the heat from the a/c system messing with the radiators ability to do its job and you are asking for more issues.

Keep the radiator, run your fan, put a .010" smaller oriface tube in it, hook up a high pressure cut out switch, adjust the cycling switch so it runs a lower low side pressure, charge it to 80% or so and give it a try.

Steve

[ZephyrEFI]

I think you are making a mistake selling that radiator, Brad. The original one was designed for a certain hp and your is making more which will inevitably make the engine run hotter as it lags behind. Add the heat from the a/c system messing with the radiators ability to do its job and you are asking for more issues.

Keep the radiator, run your fan, put a .010" smaller oriface tube in it, hook up a high pressure cut out switch, adjust the cycling switch so it runs a lower low side pressure, charge it to 80% or so and give it a try.

Steve

Thanks. I already agreed to sell it, so it would be pretty lame to back out at this point. Glenn's stern warning just freaked me out enough I guess I have to see this through as planned. If it turns out to I'm wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[droopie85gt]

Add some factory style rubber 'siding' to the rad and condenser to help seal them...helps the fans pull air thru the condenser. I have a factory fwd Cougar fan setup. It's two fans and I had each fan on a 30 amp relay with no problems either with over heating or blowing a relay. Worse comes to worse, mount another fan as a pusher in front of the condenser.

[ZephyrEFI]

Add some factory style rubber 'siding' to the rad and condenser to help seal them...helps the fans pull air thru the condenser. I have a factory fwd Cougar fan setup. It's two fans and I had each fan on a 30 amp relay with no problems either with over heating or blowing a relay. Worse comes to worse, mount another fan as a pusher in front of the condenser.

That's a good idea. I'll do that for sure, thanks! I was doing a little looking and those Cougar/Contour fans are pretty easy to come by and cheap aren't they? Nice fit too, i see.

[ZephyrEFI]

Well it's come to my attention the Mark VIII fan is pretty kickass, maybe pulling as much as 4500 CFM. If i could make one fit (not sure about clearance to engine/water pump pulley), I'd be more okay with going with an aluminum radiator. It was just that before i knew that, I didn't want to try and go with an iffy fan AND an iffy radiator (at least as far as the A/C goes) just seemed like too much.

[ZephyrEFI]

Well, i think I've made a decision. Rather than reinventing the wheel and completely starting over with my pretty good cooling fan setup, i think I'm going to go with the SVE radiator and a pusher fan on the front of the condenser. I'd probably be okay without the additional fan, but I just don't want to take a chance. This is the cheapest solution AND allows me to have the best cooling for my engine as well as the A/C. And, i get to keep my nice robust fan setup with a fan that was bought new so it's less likely to fail.

As for how to control the pusher, I'm not sure yet. I might just wire it to be on when the A/C is on. Or I might splice into the High circuit of my existing fan and maybe wire it to the "A/C On" circuit just so my electrical system doesn't have to deal with the additional load all the time. I dunno.

The more i dug into the Mark VIII fan thing, the more i found too many questions as to whether it would have been good to abandon everything I built last year and start over with something that may or may not have been something that would even solve my perceived CFM deficiency or allow me to run a known good radiator.

[ZephyrEFI]

How come I'm the only one excited about this?

[4-barrel Mike]

Merkur xR4Ti's high speed fan is hard-wired to the a/c.

Personally, I'd use what you have until it's been shown to be deficient, then upgrade as necessary.

Oh! Excitement! OK! #yippy #skippy #yaba-daba-doo I mean #yippy-kai-yea-kai-yo

How's that?

Mike

[ZephyrEFI]

Merkur xR4Ti's high speed fan is hard-wired to the a/c.

Personally, I'd use what you have until it's been shown to be deficient, then upgrade as necessary.

Oh! Excitement! OK! #yippy #skippy #yaba-daba-doo I mean #yippy-kai-yea-kai-yo

How's that?

Mike

Much better, thank you. And good advice.

[ZephyrEFI]

Speaking of A/C, check this out. I started looking for different manifolds i can use because as things stand, the low side line coming off the compressor will interfere with the strut tower brace.



You can see, it's different from a stock compressor. The lines go out the back and straight up instead of out the top and horizontal like an original. The compressor is a Sanden SD7 H16 with GV head for bolt-on manifolds. Someone told me once there are a bunch of different manifolds for these, so i shouldn't have a problem finding one that i can use to solve this problem. Well, most of the ones i found were either straight out the back, which I probably don't have clearance for in that space, or varying types of 90 degree/out the top ones. I imagine if i go higher up, i start to run into hood clearance concerns. I'd love it if there was one where the lines go out the sides, but I've had no luck finding one. However, what I DID find is this:

https://coldhose.com/specialty-fitti...ion-ports.html

It swivels! So, in theory, i could still use the high side line as it came, but i can swivel the low side fitting toward the side, so it won't hit the strut tower brace! I'd still need to have the low side line altered and re-clamped, but i think this is a pretty good solution!

[ZephyrEFI]

[NY5speed]

Cool! (pun somewhat intended)

[ZephyrEFI]

Cool! (pun somewhat intended)

Nice.

So, i found some pics that illustrate my problem. Here's the compressor. You can see how the lines are different than stock.


The strut tower brace runs right in front of the Explorer intake. Obviously there isn't one here, but you start to get the idea.


This type of manifold is out there, and was one method i was considering, but i wasn't sure there would be room for the lines behind. Looks like there's room with an HO intake, but the Explorer might just be different enough... This looks nice and clean, but he had to have both lines modified.



This one, it looks like he had the rubber part extended. Definitely not as clean.


This is probably the closest to how mine will end up. He added a 90 degree fitting to the original kit manifold and had the low side line modified.

[xctasy]

Refrigeration is really manadatory in most states.




As a kid, I loved wearing shorts, and burning my calf muscles on the naugahide bench seat sitting in the Valiant with the windows up while it was a blue sky day at 106 °F outside at 3 pm.

But it didn't have a 60 degree windscreen, hermatically sealed doors with air trapping velour, and vinal dash to act as a greenhouse gas chamber. That's what anything after 1980 started to become...

Jeep used to spend the money it saved from using Durasparks and Motocraft carbs and Ford or Mopar gearboxes on better ancillary drives and A/C pump fittings.

Ford had more underhood space, so the typically obese SelecTaire/ York/Teumseh 2 piston A/C compressor, used even in W126 Benz 280SE's, got simple fittings on the I6'S.



On a Jeep I6's, though, it got swivel unions, and serpentine belts on some versions, along with the S calss 280SE.



Most V8's did too.



The Sanden rotary A/C unit and the aftermarket forced the industry to make space saving fittings.

Find the best fittings, and use them. There is a head loss issue with them, but if it gets you the space you need, you can then find other ways to improve the systems performance.

I love the Sanden units, but they are tough to fit. I've seen one guy make a hydrostic drive and put his A/C pump in the glove box in his V8 Cortina. Its just like a pre Aero Fox dashboard, only there is no drop down glovebox, and he locked off the normally latched upper compartment. There was a g-rotor oil filled remote pump like Mike1157's, and braided line to the glove box mounted Sanden.

On a much shorter shaft.



Not this 4.1 liter X-flow Cortina, but a V8 one like it.

[ZephyrEFI]

Look at that. Tried and true technology!