New Engine Build - Huge solid roller valve train issues...

[n20capri]

Just got back from the shop - The look on his face and his reaction when he saw us walk in with another broker stud was amazement. "Another one?" he said. He was real concerned and was more than happy to swing by to see where things were. He's going to come over to Dads tomorrow to see what's going on.

Dad and I both feel much better - hopefully it's something stupid and an easy fix. My mind just gets going with every possible outcome and the worst case scenarios are usually at the top of the list.

Stay tuned!

In the meantime - quick clip of the car after we fixed the first broken stud...

[n20capri]

Also, should we be wanting to replace all the studs at this point knowing something is wonky? I'd have to imagine they are all stressed...

[ashley roachclip]

I would replace them all on a new motor .
Why not ?

[n20capri]

Well they were new for this build...I'm now wondering since something clearly isn't right - do I want another set of ALL new studs once the issue is fixed. Not sure how much they have been stressed...

[cb84capri]

Also, should we be wanting to replace all the studs at this point knowing something is wonky? I'd have to imagine they are all stressed...

Yes, once you figure out what's going on. They likely have all been fatigued now and will continue to give you guys trouble. Buy ARP 2000/ pro series studs if they have some available in a size that works. You should probably look into getting stud girdles for it too. That lift is pretty stout. It's going to be hard on valve train components.

Cale

[n20capri]

Cool thanks. Anyone know of a stud girdle kit that will clear stock efi valve covers? (covers are already clearanced and baffles removed)

[cb84capri]

Cool thanks. Anyone know of a stud girdle kit that will clear stock valve covers? (covers are already clearanced and baffles removed)

You're probably going to have to get some tall valve covers or spacers, and I don't know how much room there is on an efi car. What are the details of this engine? Is it a Dart block? What heads? How many miles a year does this car see? Is it just a strip toy?

I'm building a street 347 for my Capri right now.

Cale

[n20capri]

Dart block 363 yes. Edelbrock Performers fully done (larger valves, valve job, enlarged combustion chambers etc etc) - comp cams solid roller. Probably sees less than 1500/year street strip. He runs nitrous too. Will most likely need to upgrade from 2.5" exhaust to 3" - but not now.

I remember hearing about something that will fit under stock efi covers but I forget who told me lol.

[Zap's 85 GT]

I would be curious to see/know where the stud is breaking. At the threads or further down on the smooth part of the shank? Also ,how tight are you torquing the poly locks?

Did you perform a valve stem tip wear check to verify proper geometry and contact pattern? At this point I would stop trusting the builder.

Cylinder head, valve spring, and camshaft specs would also be appreciated to further help diagnose any issues.

[n20capri]

I would be curious to see/know where the stud is breaking. At the threads or further down on the smooth part of the shank? Also ,how tight are you torquing the poly locks?

Did you perform a valve stem tip wear check to verify proper geometry and contact pattern? At this point I would stop trusting the builder.

Cylinder head, valve spring, and camshaft specs would also be appreciated to further help diagnose any issues.

I will get a pic of the stud tomorrow and update with what the builder finds out...

I don't know which springs he used. I do have the recommended spring on the cam card - which I'd assume IS the one he used.
This is the cam:
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=926&sb=2

Heads are Edelbrock Performers fully done (larger valves, valve job, enlarged combustion chambers etc etc)
I did notice the pushrod was 7.2" (I checked the first breakage to make sure it wasn't bent)

As mentioned before we are experienced but not with setting up a custom valve train. I know I mentioned some issues we've had this time around with the builder but he has built other stuff for us (never any problems) and is very well known and reputable in this area.

He definitely seemed overly concerned we are having issues and was more than willing to come to Dads house to personally check things out. He did mention doing a valve stem tip wear check to verify the pushrod length and said he will do what it takes to make it right - no band aids he said. I'm certain he has people at the shop actually building the stuff - he's ALWAYS there and oversees the work but I'm sure he mostly does the head porting.

At this point we will trust him, personally, to see what's going on. I'm hoping just an oversight on whoever actually setup the top end.

If we still have problems after he checks things out I will be back here to learn everything I can to do it myself. The info I've learned already has been good and was able to understand some stuff he was talking about.

I hear ya Mike - I was definitely frustrated but we both (me and dad) feel much better at how concerned he was...like grabbergreen84 said earlier - he's definitely wanting to figure out what's going on.

[Mustang-junky]

Stud flex



The Jomar stud girdle on my big block is a thing of beauty.



On the SBF in my mustang I use a off brand girdle. The in line SBF heads are much simpler than canted valves, so I felt okay buying the cheaper piece.

Jess

[n20capri]

Builder said the pushrod was a hair too long. It was leaving the mark just a hair forward of center. 7.2 going to a 7.150. Said everything else looked fine. Getting us new pushrods and studs. Pic of broken studs attached for reference.

Talked about the springs too - Custom to the head based on measured installed height - custom retainer to accommodate a longer spring etc etc.

He said he'd have stuff tomorrow so we'll see if I have time to get it all back together and valves adjusted in time for a drive. I'll update thread when I know more.

[n20capri]

Stud flex



The Jomar stud girdle on my big block is a thing of beauty.



On the SBF in my mustang I use a off brand girdle. The in line SBF heads are much simpler than canted valves, so I felt okay buying the cheaper piece.

Jess

Yeah I've seen a few vids on stud flex. Crazy! We'll see what happens...

[Walking-Tall]

50-thou is a lotta hairs, lol...
That's good you are adjusting the valves. That way you can double check that's a short enough push rod and that there's no more rocker/nut interference when you're rotating the engine around to set the clearances.

[Mustang-junky]

Did he have anything to say about the marks on the rocker arms? I don't think .050" too long of a push rod would do that.

Jess

[Zap's 85 GT]

Did he have anything to say about the marks on the rocker arms? I don't think .050" too long of a push rod would do that.

Same thing I was thinking, but not being there to see for myself I cant really argue too much.

[Jerry peachuer]

To break a 7/16,stud as shown took a **** ton of force especially over a less than 2 inch distance (roller rocker length approximate)

Being a solid lifter cam it may have marred cam lobe (worse case) there's no give at all unlike a spring design in a hydraulic roller lifter

I would go on a limb and say your poly lock is going to max lift and upon going back to base circle it catches and the cam makes it go back by means of breaking the .437 inch stud four hundred and thirty seven thousandth of high strength heat treated alloy which is processed with the best in the business processes as far as ARP

By no means am I remotely close to being a engine builder or even a "good mechanic" but I'm in a specialized machining business and I know what it takes to break a 1/2 bolt hardened steel bolt at that

With that said I would put checking springs on a cylinder and verify there's no binding after max lift
Even though when you add RPM and that stud flex above your scenario will worsen so you need more clearance

Again take it for what it is I'm not a engine builder and he most likely has you in good hands

There is a hot lash and cold lash vale adjustment on solid roller setup
Also make sure your roller rocker isn't falling off valve stem that thing is opening almost 3/4 of a inch and the valve stem is around .200 ish diameter not a lot of distance to play with

Your valve lash is your adjustment in solid valvetrain and the alum heads contract differently and lash would be different vs iron head

Again sounds like you and pops have more experience than myself and the engine builder is in business still so all should be good
Observation to why is more important than a .05 longer pushrod to fix it

I believe the problem is deeper and I would definitely look into a binding scenario before I hit ignition

[Walking-Tall]

The breakage (at an unavoidable manufactured "stress riser", where the threads begin, IMHO the weakest link of the studs, where there's most leverage acting from bending forces from above) took a ton of repeated collision-induced shock bending/shearing forces, rockers hammering the poly lock because the rocker's beginning at-rest state is too high up on the push rod side, and traveling through an arc too far according to it's safely-travel-able rotation window, not simply from cam lift and spring pressure, but from obvious mechanical collisions (I'd not be impressed those robust rockers now have (the fault of incorrectly-assembled) stress risers in them, the dents, at a point where bending moment forces WILL act upon...) of rocker arm to poly lock nut from a push rod too long, aka WAY bad rocker arm installation/geometry, and $hitty assembly practice in general. If this were mine, I'd be more scared $hitless now and wonder whether piston-to-valve clearances were checked... a potentially far more catastrophic end if not checked/set/verified. In a nutshell, I'd be checking everything, because if what we see was let go out the door... and it's not rocket science because it's a stout mechanical roller cam and springs. All bare-bone basics like any mechanism still apply, such as things not crashing into one another.

[Jerry peachuer]

Agree where the thread ends and being a weak point

Well stated overall

Could be a improperly heattreated bolt (they draw threads back to a softer in theory r/c (Rockwell) and at a production level run I guess there could be a bad lot of them

If your engine builder didn't check piston to valve clearance upon assembly then that's scary for that large of a cam and we will leave it at that especially being a solid (more rev capable) more clearance needed

Again I'm half in the know and have much respect for the people who do

Breaking a 1/2 bolt (ok) 7/16 is not a easy feat of course if it's fractured then that's different

If they are indeed ARP they may want to hear from you and you may get replacements after they inspect them

[Walking-Tall]

Agree where the thread ends and being a weak point

Well stated overall

Could be a improperly heattreated bolt (they draw threads back to a softer in theory r/c (Rockwell) and at a production level run I guess there could be a bad lot of them

If your engine builder didn't check piston to valve clearance upon assembly then that's scary for that large of a cam and we will leave it at that especially being a solid (more rev capable) more clearance needed

Again I'm half in the know and have much respect for the people who do

Breaking a 1/2 bolt (ok) 7/16 is not a easy feat of course if it's fractured then that's different

If they are indeed ARP they may want to hear from you and you may get replacements after they inspect them

Thanks, Jerry. I've got experience with mechanical engineering and design, specifically of design of accurate, adequate strength, and safe mechanisms and load-bearing brackets, all of them also using design-specific hardware, mixed also with schooling in metallurgy and non-destructive and destructive testing of materials and fasteners. IMHO, 7/16" ARP rocker studs are Superman-strong, and it's the repeated hammering contact made, hammering contact enough to make those dents in those tough rockers, is what busted dear ole Dad's rocker studs... and I'd be rolling those push rods on glass too to check 'em for being bent. I think it was mentioned above that the push rods are being replaced too, so they probably did get bent. I'd be most mad about the rockers, and would question their integrity, because even though bending forces will now be acting in a compressing sorta way at those indents, which is better than if tension was acting on them there, the rocker arms still now have those stress points.

[n20capri]

Man you guys are scaring me now! lol

Look - prior to this we had ZERO issues with this guy. He built my Dad's last 347 stroker (when I say he - I mean his shop - perhaps he built the engine himself - but I don't know exactly - I'd guess not him personally though) - That setup was a stock block hyd roller same heads etc etc - went 10.9's at over 127 with a small shot (highest MPH of 130). The thing was an animal - ZERO issues - it was built over 12 years ago. Cracked the block - so here we are today.

He also put together the solid roller top end in the 347 that's in my Capri. Zero issues there either. Him, his brother and most of the guys that work for him now, worked at the place that built my original 306 and my 347. That shop owner was over 80 and retired...so this guy went out on his own. Zero issues with that 306 - lasted over 10 years of daily driven use and tons of nitrous launches at the track. 347 has been in my car running strong since 2004.

With that being said - I know I mentioned issues we had this time but they weren't quality or competency issues - just stupid little things and I came off ranty and upset since breaking the studs and wanted some advice...

I know the guy knows his stuff or we wouldn't be using him. He's not a fly by nighter or someone hacking engines together in his shed (not that there's anything wrong with that - just saying - lol). SO...I have to assume he checked PTV clearance and made sure the proper spring was used and that everything was setup correctly. The engine sounds fine and seemed to run well before breaking the second stud. I asked him about the springs and he said it's all based on the head and installed height - rarely, can you use the spring the cam card recommends. He said there are a ton of these factors and was even talking about the special retainers he used to accommodate a longer, more stout spring etc etc. Again, I know a little - but not enough to go setting this up from scratch. With what I do know I have to trust him based on what he's telling me as it all sounds right. Also, the consensus here was that the pushrod was too long.

He said, normally the marks the rocker left on the valve would have been fine and he was baffled as to why they were hitting the rockers. They were just off center towards the headers he said maybe .025 - so going to a .050 shorter pushrod we'd now be .025 to the back of the valve - still acceptable - not affecting lift or anything but giving enough clearance for the rocker to not hit the poly lock. To me this sounds reasonable. But again I'm no expert. We questioned the integrity of the studs so he's getting us ALL new studs and of course the new push rods.

We asked about the rockers too and he said they should be fine. I'd think if we pushed hard enough he'd get us new rockers too. But I don't know that for sure. At this point I'm hoping it's a weird combination of rockers and pushrod length and it happened to hit. (hopefully I'm not eating my words) - You can't tell the rockers were hitting visually - other than seeing the nick in them - not sure how this would be tested or measured...

When I get the new parts I will once again question the springs and talk with him about other possible reasons for the stud breakage. As I said before he seems to be taking this seriously and definitely wants it right so we'll see what happens.

Thanks thus far for the replies - I'm am much more knowledgeable than before because of the replies - and do feel better at how he's been handling it so far...

And to add something other than issues to this thread - I'll whore it up with some vids of Dad's car! lol

This is a 10.9 run:


Same run - GoPro fender cam:


Earlier in the day - an 11.03 - my favorite angle - bogged bad and still went 11.03

[Hissing Cobra]

Damn! Your dad's car hooks and books! I LOVED seeing those videos. I think you're in good hands with your builder. Sometimes things happen but at least he's willing to see/hear what you're talking about and he seems willing to make it right. Keep your spirits up. These things have a way of working themselves out.

[brianj]

Things go wrong, and even the best make mistakes. What matters is how they deal with it. It sounds like he is a straight up guy, so you should be ok.

[Jerry peachuer]

sounds like your in capable hands and anything after the final sale is awesome standup and very respectable

Its only 2 studs and longer pushrods and the builder came over to the lions den (dads) to help sort it out!! Glad to hear man

Different story if it unlocked a keeper and dropped ole valve down in the cylinder and turned it into part of the cylinder wall and redesign your combustion chamber on the cylinder head then I'd say be frustrated

No worries man sounds like your good

When you walk back into the engine builders shop holding a 2 piece crank and no warranty and no help from the "big store" after you prove and submit every request and every detail including what bearings you used and where you bought it from backs up what they did as far as work and 7 months goes by and you still have empty engine bay

I have a good friend that knows the engine builder personally and he feels bad but it's not the builders fault and it's not my buddies fault
His car is 6.12 /6.20 in the 1/8 but mopar and 3200 lbs carb with same company crankshaft and only foot break 2600 rpm launch

Violent and heavy (crank hasn't got a easy life is my point)
My car 300 rwhp if I'm lucky with heavily worked heads and wasn't on track and took out my whole entire bottom end

See the comparison ?

Stuff just goes wrong even if it's put together by people who know

Hang in there the car is going to be a handful when sorted out

Good luck man

[Hissing Cobra]

Jerry's right. Stuff does go wrong and it could be a parts failure or an error that was done by the builder. It's how it's rectified that becomes the difference between companies. My twin brother Paul is an automotive machinist. He builds engines all day, every day, and has been doing so for 30 years - at the same company. I can tell you first hand that he's had issues from both parts and from human errors. It happens even to our own engines.

Years ago he bought himself a D.S.S. 331 stroker for his '85 GT, assembled the engine, installed it into the engine bay, and took it for a ride. On it's maiden voyage he heard a noise. I then went over and took it for a ride myself and didn't hear anything. Still not convinced and very unhappy, he pulled the motor and took it apart. That's when he found that the main bearing caps had their outer cheek machined incorrectly and it wiped out the crank. Pissed, he called D.S.S. and fought with them over the phone. He then shipped the entire 331 rotating assembly back to them with a note for them to do an inspection and to get back to him. He also noted on that note that he was an experienced engine builder and had been one for over 20 years. D.S.S. called him back and admitted their mistake! They then sent him a new rotating assembly at no charge. My brother did lose time and money though, as he had to pay for the shipping of the rotating assembly back to them and his car was down for half of the summer until he got his old 306 motor back in it. His new rotating assembly was flawless and it's been in the car ever since (with a quickie teardown/rebuild two months ago).

The moral of the story is that stuff happens. D.S.S. machined the bearing caps incorrectly. My brother didn't really inspect them when he installed them the first time, as he ASSUMED that they were correct. Thus, he missed their mistake and made one of his own. It was a lesson learned on his end and he now inspects every single part and doesn't assume anything. D.S.S. was good to him in this instance, as they responded to his problem and made it right.