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  1. #876

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    A supercoupe engine in my truck bed, tah dah.Name:  IMG_3666.jpg
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    I'll take it to the car wash tomorrow and then mount it to the engine stand, after the OU-OSU football game that is.....

  2. #877
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Wow. I'm like a kid in a Candy store here...... plstktnkr2's is back with an update too and you both got this stuff in the bag. And my time is a piece of wax falling on a termite. Who's choking on the splinters....


    The Eaton Super Charger intake is the most seiriously weird thing Ford ever made. Since it flows air, not gasoline, so Ford took some liberties.

    Anyone who reworks these needs the USCSS Nostromo t shirt





    I'm used to the old Holden 3800 SuperCharged intake used on the last of the GM 3800's down here. Same hp, same performance, but very open intake and none of Fords

    Look at the difference....




    The Essex SC3800 is just amazingly restricted in comparison.











    From http://stevebest1.tripod.com/


  3. #878

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    I was noticing how small the intake was myself.

    Im probably going to get an MPx case to replace the old one with a larger intake tube as well. Plus an 85mm throttle body.

    i mention that because it seems to me the bottle neck for airflow will be the intake. I don’t think there are any aftermarket replacements for that part. Maybe someone porta those as well, but really, how much bigger can that hole be made?

  4. #879
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    Wall thickness is 200 thou, so you can only open it up another 40 thou safely uniformly around it.

    IMHO? I think your better off staying with it, the whole SC conversion is buit around that part, and if your ending up with those kind of crazy dyno figures that the other modified MN12's are making, I'd guess the intake isn't the air restrictor "bottlekneck" in this case.

    Normal rule is that air restrictors only come into operation at 80 cubic inches or engine per 1 sq inch of air hole.

    That hole looks to be equal to the 6 sq inches, about the same size as the back of a 950 cfm 3-bbl Holley carb.

    Air flow has to be a lot more restricted. This is where I think Ford were way ahead of the rest.

    Measure the width and length.

    A under a 500 cfm Holley 2-bbl 4412 carb is a gaint hole 2.236 sq plus a 1.875 x 1.6875" hole of 3.164 sq in for a total of 5.400 sq in.


    Width is 3.5625" by 1.6875". If I'm a betting man, thats exactly what Fords Dearborn engineers used as a hole forthe back on the manifold...

    Its only at about 432 cubic inches that the air flow gets restricted. You'd need to have a boost ratio of 1.87, or 12.7 pounds of effective boost, to top that thing out.

  5. #880

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    12.7 psi?......uhm.....yeah. with a total of 25% overdrive with the appropriate pulley system I think I might be swinging past that.

    Oh well, it's just an issue to be addressed a little later though. I'll do some reading in the mean time.

    Im sending the heads off to be ported and possibly larger valves (though the larger valves aren't necessarily concreted in my head yet). That and a bigger cam will benefit from all the airflow I can give it.

    This is fun, I like overcoming issues like this.

    I think I'm pretty well committed to the 4.2 crank.

    I cant wait to tear everything down to see what issues will arise.

  6. #881

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    Today I pulled off the flexplate, backing plate, headers, pullies and brackets. Then I used up two cans of gunk on the engine and went to the car wash.
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    Mounted it to the stand and drained the oil. That crap is THICK! No coolant contamination though.
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    I took off the valve covers to see what the insides might look like. The valve train looks very nice.Name:  IMG_3690.jpg
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  7. #882

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    Ok, I watched my college football games this afternoon, and sure, maybe I drank a touch more beer than I should have. Heck, My Oklahoma Sooners and my Iowa Hawkeyes both won big games!

    So, i'm in the fog of victorious football teams that I root for, what should I do now? That's right, I should go tear down a little more of my sc engine that's IN MY GARAGE!

    I took the injector harness off, the fuel rails/injectors and the intake manifold.Name:  IMG_3696.jpg
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    The yard owner said he thought the head gaskets were blown, and they might be, I'll find out tomorrow. Here's the real problem......Stop Leak. Look at that front coolant passage on the left head. It's completely blocked! Bright side is the valley looked pretty good.Name:  IMG_3704.jpg
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  8. #883

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    She cleaned up good. 4.2 crank huh... gonna be interesting
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  9. #884

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    She cleaned up good. 4.2 crank huh... gonna be interesting
    That's what my wallet is saying at least!
    I don't see how I can totally tear this engine down and not do the 4.2.

    Fact is, there are a number of things that I'll be doing so I do it just once, lol. All's it takes is money!

  10. #885

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    I can't lie... there was time, and even now still... I wonder how different an animal mine might be with a 4.2 crank in 'er... but, no Mike, shush, we're going V8 you dufus, get those thoughts OUT of your head, lol...

    You're right, it simply MUST be done... like, why not?!!!
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  11. #886
    FEP Senior Member BMW Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davedacarpainter View Post
    All's it takes is money!
    That's the spirit

    That's also how my car ended up way way way beyond my original budget and far more modified and crazy than originally envisioned. You'll have a long way to go I bet to match my spending, so get on with it

  12. #887

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Rider View Post
    That's the spirit

    That's also how my car ended up way way way beyond my original budget and far more modified and crazy than originally envisioned. You'll have a long way to go I bet to match my spending, so get on with it
    Lol. I bet I do!

    Realistically, I'm thinking I will be spending another $15k on this car over the next couple years.

  13. #888
    FEP Senior Member BMW Rider's Avatar
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    I wish I had your skill with paint and body work, that's the part that is really driving my costs through the roof.

  14. #889

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    My big dollar expenditure will be this engine, without a doubt. Everything else will seem like child's play for me.

    Yeah, paint and body sure isn't cheap. Plus you need to find good technicians to perform the work.

  15. #890
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    A couple of questions....Beer with me....


    ......




    Q1: What year is your SC 3800 auto engine? I don't believe its a 92 Tbird Super Coupe engine.

    The car looks pre air bag 210 hp 1990 auto by its steering wheel, and that tags it as an early Eaton M90.

    Depending on what you have, you got some very good options to move to an M112, without having to changing anything major wire, belt drive and pipe fitting wise.


    Q2: Would you consider the Jaguar M112 instead of Mustang-junky's kind offer of the side mount 2003 MP112?

    Basically, the a$$ end of a Premium Automotive Ford, Mercury M90 or Jag M112 is arrayed the same, its just some details and flanges that have been rehashed for Fords engineering needs. There is no Restrictor plate issue, even with the weird as rear manifold postage slot...its just with a moderate flow rate even at 55% over drive, its just a moderate 13 psi shunt of 112 cubic inches per revolution. The M112 stands far above the M90 for the abilty to make power past 3000 to 6000rpm, despite the bigger blowers lack of heat reduction under boost.

    And the snouts for 3rd Gens M62's, M90's and M112's are interchangable if you get the right ones. Stock, depending on version, and where you baseline it, are about 8.6", but you can have 7.80", 7.10, 6.95" or Jag has one thats shorter still. Yella Terra make a custom short snout.


    In my opinion, the older M112's are plentifull, and a lot more suited to the way Ford scoped out the Super Charged XR7 and T bird SC's, and using a better, bigger blower would be cheaper than messing around with trying to make an M90 work with a Megasquirt format. My assessment is that the intake is not the restriction, its the little M90 blower.


    Okay going back to the basics of the Eaton Super Charger castings, here's the summary:-


    M90's have two types of discharge to the manifold, Oval or Rectangular






    Jag 4 liter I6's are Generation 4 M112's and have the same kind of recessed bearing ends, just a little bit different to the M90

    The V8 Jags all have Generation 5 M112's with portruding bearing ends, and they are also easy to adapt the M90 discharge pipe to the manifold...if you know how to clear them.



    All four types have similar had dimensions, and are interchangable. Key thing is that the M112 flows a huge amount more air without hurting the flow geometery, and the easiest way to make power is to do a little of plstktnkr2's mods to the upper inlet,




    and keep the back essentially the same.



    That way, all the stock common to Eaton M series 90 and 112 parts are kept in line, and you can mid mount an M112.




    Any Jag M112 has a big ole flange that needs a cut down and linish, but it'll fit where an M90 does.





    If you see http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-...td-pics-2.html

    You'll see the common side mount Jag M112 for a Fox body with a 5.0 EFi



    The conversion they do is a lot more involved than the Essex 90 SC engine, but side mounting a rougher 90 degree V6 isn't really an option.

    The basic parts for the 5.0 Supercharger kit are Jag M112, and they just do it a little different.






    The round oval port is like the M62 at the back....





  16. #891

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    Once I was able to get the driver’s door of the t-bird open I found out it was an ‘89.Name:  FCC0F58B-A053-42BC-8285-AAFB90AE3461.jpg
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    I’m going to stick with the M90 and use an MPx case and inlet. It’ll look sort of original.

  17. #892

  18. #893

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    Ok, got the Harmonic dampener off, oil pump, timing chain cover and oil pan too.
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    Kind of interesting to see the SC mark on the inside of the block.Name:  IMG_3747.jpg
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    Next up will be to remove the timing chain and gears. Then the camshaft.

    Rotating assembly after that.

  19. #894
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The whole block and crank were updated for the SC 3.8 Liter. Block is at least 10 pounds heavier, most in the bulkheads. Likewise, crank is heavier, forged steel.

    Someone spent some serious dollars making that block strong....

  20. #895
    FEP Senior Member droopie85gt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xctasy View Post
    The whole block and crank were updated for the SC 3.8 Liter. Block is at least 10 pounds heavier, most in the bulkheads. Likewise, crank is heavier, forged steel.

    Someone spent some serious dollars making that block strong....
    Dave is going to spend some serious dollars trying to crack that block! Remember HP = Dollars x the square of infinity.

    1985 GT, Sunroof, 5 Lug, Rear Discs, 01 Graphite Bullets, 88 forged piston shortblock, 2.02/1.60 Alum heads, Weiand Stealth, Holley C950 TBI, BBK Long tubes

  21. #896
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    to infinity....and BEYOND!!!!!
    [img]https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*OtXMIY04bjfWcAr6kn11dQ.gif[/img]

  22. #897

  23. #898
    FEP Super Member xctasy's Avatar
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    The SC 3800 unit pushes the compressed air up into the "3.8" hat,
    on forwards to the charge cooler,
    down to the intercooler,
    and then all the way back into the intake. As the GM guys say "Yup, sounds just like a Ford...."


    The Scorpion Tail intake is arranged to avoid heat soak, and since the air flow is dry and not displaced by fuel droplets, or even very turbulent like the L67 GM 3800's open intake, you can shove a crapload of boost into them if there is a bigger front intercooler.

    The Scorp Tail


    The single intake port to the in bound mail slot intake



    is not a restrictor plate at any boost level, as its gotta be much smaller than 6 sq inches for a boosted 4.3 liter plus engine


    Stock, even an 89-90 SC makes 242 hp and 332 lb-ft at the flywheel, and with just over drive pulley, Cold Air Intake with a low restriction paanel or K&N filtet, bigger MAF, better exhausts with no IC mods take a stock M90 equiped engine to 290 hp and 420 lb-ft.

    What kills the hp and torque is the lacking


    1. intercooler surface area,


    2. blower cubic inches per revolution, and

    3. better ducting to and from the "blower"


    The net shows many MN12 front mounted intercooler ducts, not many intercoolers. V6 Foxes still don't have a lot of beak room, so integrating A/C condenser, radiator and Intercooler will be a challange.

    let this be your goal





    But going up in duct size, and with the better aftermarket out let hats, and Inter coolers, along with a proper 8 belt drive that doesn't slip,


    An ancient 13 second stock 1982 3.3 engine in a 1983 Fox Mustang Hatch was the Turbo Ford Forums nad FordSix.Com's Lincs200's aftermarket Subaru style IC mount under the front like Mike1157's. The under bumper area is a safe zone for making inter cooler volume.

    Cumulative gains go this way.


    1, 2 and 3 .

    1. Whatever front Inter/after Cooler

    2. IMHO, The ducting contors of the MPx effectively make it a defacto M112, although it still won't fix the spot boost requirement. 90 cubes per revoltion is way too small, but it lookes like a good dyno tune takes this issue and goes past it. My first experience with a freind Richards 1988 VN Commodore with the US BOP GM 3800 V6 and an Ogura SC15 with 85 cubic inches per revolution pumped so much heat into the intake. Heat in itself wasn't the issue it was the lack of GMC style volume per revolution that lost the real power gains.

    The MPx case is very much bigger than Jaguar M112 at the ducting and blower intake area, for reduced head loss.

    5th Gen MPx vs Stock M90



    Installed



    3. better ducting to and from the "blower"...well Rick got on to that.


    How you go about it, that's up to you, but once you get a notion of your end system needs, you'll easily improve the efficency.

  24. #899

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    Xctasy, you're a world of information for me, thank you. I like the color he put on the lower intake and tubes.

    I've been sick the past few days so I haven't done much. I decided to pull the timing chain and gears along with the camshaft tonight.Name:  IMG_3754.jpg
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    Since I was there I figured I might as well go ahead and pull the pistons since it would only take a couple minutes Name:  IMG_3758.jpg
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    This is the worst of the rod bearings, it's the number four piston rod.Name:  IMG_3755.jpg
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  25. #900
    FEP Super Member erratic50's Avatar
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    Great progress! Good luck at the machine shop getting it prepped for service again!

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