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  1. #1
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    Default Alignment Specifications

    The alignment shop I called talked to me about some BS to charge me hourly to do an alignment on a car they may not have "specs" for. Kind of a laugh plus they said they would need to do a road test

    I've read a handful of different threads on here and there is a lot of information available in internet-land as well.

    Regardless, this got me searching for what a stock/almost stock car would need and I found varying information. Let me know what your thoughts are based on the below info.

    Case 1: 1979 Mustang Coupe

    -lowered 1.0"-1.5" with Eibach Pro-kit springs
    -went from stock 13" wheels to wider 15" 10 holes

    Straight out of the 1979 Chassis book:

    Name:  Ford Alignment spec.JPG
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    From Maximum Motorsports web site. Quite a difference from Ford:

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    Name:  Caster.png
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    From a random Mustang forum thread based on an expert "Mustang guy's" learnings over the years. Close to the middle of the other two but leaning to MM's:

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  2. #2

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    Double post...
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 04-27-2016 at 12:10 AM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
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  3. #3

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    Regardless of ride height (but depending on intended use, such as some of the race toe and increased negative camber settings you show above), a street-bound vehicle's manners would be fine, and it's front tire treads will fair well with a degree or two of negative camber for cornering (as opposed to the, "roll under" the outer tire with "spirited" cornering with positive camber), all the positive caster you can dial in, prior to tremendous-effort-required (more-so the race settings above) to make steering inputs, for straight-line stability and easy no-hands steering wheel return to center after a turn, and ~1/8" toe-in. The differing left/right settings shown above normally had something to do with compensating for "road crown", which seems to have not been implemented in what passes for roads and road construction for the past 30 years or so, with the bumpy, swurvy, patched-up goat paths we drive on today, lol
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 04-27-2016 at 12:11 AM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  4. #4
    Moderator wraithracing's Avatar
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    First point is that one a stock Mustang with OEM top strut plates the Caster is not adjustable. You have to have an aftermarket Caster/Camber plate to make any adjustments.

    As stated, more caster will help self center the steering wheel and provide more "stability" at higher speeds. In my experience the 3-4 degrees as per MM works pretty well for most cars, lowered or not. More caster also tends to make the steering feel a bit heavier which some like and some don't.

    Additional Negative Camber will improve the handling of the car, so that's a good thing too. Obviously too much for a street car can cause irregular wear issues on the tires.

    Last is your toe settings. In my experience most start out around 1/8" or so and adjust from there. Every car is different due to wheel size, tire size, wheel offset, ride height, etc., etc. I generally look at my tire wear a few months after an alignment. If the wear is even across the tire, then all is good, if not then often a toe setting adjustment is needed.

    Another point to consider is that today's tires even when the same "size" as originally equipped are very different construction than the OEM tires were so often alignment changes will need to be made. Once you start changing things again such as ride height, wheel size, offset, tire width, tire height, etc. all the original specs don't necessarily apply.

    As for an alignment charge per hour, that I understand as most of your "alignment" rates again are a cheap and fast "SET THE TOE & GO" scenario that unfortunately most consumers today have no understanding of. If you have made a lot of changes to your Mustang (As I believe you have ) then I would recommend getting everything as close as you can in your garage by measuring your toe, and setting it close. Setting your camber so the front tires sit relatively flat and your caster looks equal on both sides. All of that assumes you have CC Plates otherwise just set your toe.

    Then take your car to your alignment shop and give them the specifications you want your alignment set to and tell that you want them to split the tolerances side to side. What that means is that instead of the difference in camber being 1 full degree side to side it's 1/2 degree side to side. Same for the other measurements. That tightens up your alignment and honestly makes for more precision. This was something I did with my alignment tech when I was a Service Manager. It gives a better more precise alignment that ultimately caused fewer returns for us and less "free" alignment rechecks. Also tell the shop you want a print out before and after the alignment to show the changes that were made. There are always cases and times when you can't get everything exactly the way you want them without spending hours on moving things around, otherwise your final alignment should be very close to the numbers you have shown. IMHO unless something is really out of wack on your car a precision alignment should take an hour maybe two for a good qualified technician. When using CC plates an alignment will take longer just because there is more adjustment and each change can affect other settings so sometimes a tech might have to make changes a couple of times until they get to the setting they need.

    Good Luck!

    Trey
    Last edited by wraithracing; 04-27-2016 at 07:50 AM.
    ​Trey

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  5. #5
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    Default

    Too funny! Same thing happened to me. Took my 82 GT to check the alignment and they said it would take a while and cost extra....

  6. #6
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    Default

    Thanks for the detailed tips. This car does only have the stock factory "non-adjustable" camber plates. It seemed strange to me that the quick numbers I got searching for specs were so different. I have to think that the Ford recommending caster of +1/4 to +1-3/4 degrees camber that there must be a miniscule amount of travel? I find it odd that the recommendations and numbers all say that the more negative camber the better yet Ford spec is positive?

    I did a little reading since I read your posts and I think that it will be pretty simple to do as you said Trey and do it myself and then take it in. I may not even take it in if the numbers I get are good and I'm happy.
    Last edited by 82GTforME; 04-29-2016 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Corrected terminology

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer82gt View Post
    Too funny! Same thing happened to me. Took my 82 GT to check the alignment and they said it would take a while and cost extra....
    When I redid my '82 with the five lug I recall the guy saying it took a lot longer to do it with the MM CC plates on. I don't recall them mentioning it cost more before of after and I cannot remember it being outrageous then at the same place. When they mention it this time, it can scare you; especially with some of the shop rates these days and an open ended estimate!

  8. #8
    FEP Senior Member Patrick Olsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME View Post
    I have to think that the Ford recommending caster of +1/4 to +1-3/4 degrees camber that there must be a miniscule amount of travel? I find it odd that the recommendations and numbers all say that the more negative caster the better yet Ford spec is positive?
    You're mixing / confusing the caster and camber terms, methinks.

    The Ford spec for caster is +1/4° to +1-3/4°. More positive caster is better, for the reasons already spelled out above.
    The Ford spec for camber is -1/2° to +1°. Honestly, those numbers are terrible; positive camber isn't going to do anything good for you, and -1/2° is barely adequate, even on a street car. MM's recommended negative camber makes much more sense. As Mike said, I would actually recommend even more negative camber than MM suggests; -1° to -2° on street car is just fine.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
    You're mixing / confusing the caster and camber terms, methinks.

    The Ford spec for caster is +1/4° to +1-3/4°. More positive caster is better, for the reasons already spelled out above.
    The Ford spec for camber is -1/2° to +1°. Honestly, those numbers are terrible; positive camber isn't going to do anything good for you, and -1/2° is barely adequate, even on a street car. MM's recommended negative camber makes much more sense. As Mike said, I would actually recommend even more negative camber than MM suggests; -1° to -2° on street car is just fine.
    Yeah thanks Patrick, you are right, I did mix up the caster/camber wording on the second sentence. I edited it to correct it.

    What about the toe-in? Ford states 5/16" (3/16"-7/16" range). Is that a total combined whereas the other recommendations of ~1/8" is per wheel (for 1/4" total)?

  10. #10

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    An enterprising, carefully-measuring individual could gain some positive caster by moving the k-member forward and it's engine mount slots backward.

    Ford's crazy, lol... Not certain about now, but there apparently was a time and a close connection with Firestone tires... also known as, settings like that make for sooner wearing tires, making for more tire sales, LOL
    I'd suggest 1/8" total toe-in
    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 04-29-2016 at 01:29 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  11. #11

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    The Ford specifications are for total toe.

    Virtually all modern alignment machines measure toe in degrees and do it per wheel. If you take a linear measurement to an alignment shop, they will look at you strange.

    Adjusting camber with the MM c/c plates takes EXACTLY the same amount of work as it does with the stock mounts. Loosen three nuts, set camber, tighten three nuts.

    The MM c/c plates do allow caster to be adjusted, which requires loosening and tightening two nuts. That is the only extra work involved.

    I think Ford's alignment specifications make more sense when they are properly quoted. As an example some sources will say that "caster +1.15 to +2.65 degrees" What they should really print is caster 1.9 degrees +/- 0.75 degrees. The 1.9 degrees is the specification. The +/-0.75 degrees is the tolerance.

    Over the years Ford added more positive camber and more negative camber to the front alignment specifications of the Mustang as they realized that the world didn't want an understeering pig. It took them over a decade to figure out that if they made a car that actually turned a little bit, more people would buy them.

    Alignment specifications don't have a correct and incorrect answer. To a huge degree the correct alignment depends a lot on how the car is driven. Lots of freeway miles with no cornering means that the car doesn't need very much negative camber. Lots of twisty mountain roads driven aggressively means that the car needs a lot more negative camber. Even on a 100% stock car, with different drivers, the car should have different alignments.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  12. #12

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    I didn't read every post but I align all my Fox body cars. Have for decades. It is the easiest car on the planet to align and doesn't require toe shims or any of that other garbage. It remains a mystery to me why so many shops have such a hard time aligning them. Back when I used to take them to a shop, the steering wheel would always be crooked when I left. So I started coming home and making it straight which eventually led to "Well heck, if I have to fix what they do anyway, I will just do it all myself."
    I have actually taken ONE of the many I did to a Goodyear Tire store to have it checked just to see. Only because they advertised if it was within spec, there would be no charge. I had put lowering springs on it, new Tokico struts and shocks and Steeda caster/camber plates. They loaded it up on the rack, set it all up, said it was perfect and backed it right back down without turning so much as a screw. All you need is a tape measure, a level and some string. Make the wheels just barely pulled in at the top from parallel to the ground with the bubble in the level (1/32-1/16) and then pull the front of the tires (toe) in a 1/16-1/8 of an inch compared to the back side of the front tires. I have done it for decades. They drive fine and the tires last forever and don't cup. Is it optimal for a race track? Probably not but I don't drive on a race track. It's just bolts and nuts and there is no reason on earth why you can't put the bolts and nuts in the same spot the shop can. It is not magic.

    EDIT: as far as caster goes, if you have a stock Fox strut tower and top plate, you can't get too much positive caster in it. Pull it all the way back towards the back as far as it goes. It won't be as much as it needs but will be better. I am making an assumption that Wraith's statement about it not being adjustable meant if you don't drill out the rivet. If you drill out the factory rivet, they do indeed move.
    Last edited by homer302; 05-14-2016 at 06:34 PM.
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  13. #13

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    Don't take the car to a tire store to get it aligned. The worse the alignment is while still being "in spec", the more tires they sell. Where an alignment shop will do the job right and get it as close to optimal as possible so you don't come back.
    2 1986 cougars (both 4 eyed and 5.0)
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    ... Even on a 100% stock car, with different drivers, the car should have different alignments.
    I went back and read some comments this morning. I find this interesting. When I lived in a different state a loonnnggg time ago I did actually find a good alignment guy. The reason I knew I found one is because instead of taking my keys and driving into the bay and handing the keys back when he was done. He ASKED me if I normally drove by myself or with two people. What kind of driving did I do? City, Highway? Right then I trusted him.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking-Tall View Post
    An enterprising, carefully-measuring individual could gain some positive caster by moving the k-member forward and it's engine mount slots backward.

    Ford's crazy, lol... Not certain about now, but there apparently was a time and a close connection with Firestone tires... also known as, settings like that make for sooner wearing tires, making for more tire sales, LOL
    I'd suggest 1/8" total toe-in
    Quote Originally Posted by homer302 View Post
    I didn't read every post but I align all my Fox body cars. Have for decades. It is the easiest car on the planet to align and doesn't require toe shims or any of that other garbage. It remains a mystery to me why so many shops have such a hard time aligning them. Back when I used to take them to a shop, the steering wheel would always be crooked when I left. So I started coming home and making it straight which eventually led to "Well heck, if I have to fix what they do anyway, I will just do it all myself."
    I have actually taken ONE of the many I did to a Goodyear Tire store to have it checked just to see. Only because they advertised if it was within spec, there would be no charge. I had put lowering springs on it, new Tokico struts and shocks and Steeda caster/camber plates. They loaded it up on the rack, set it all up, said it was perfect and backed it right back down without turning so much as a screw. All you need is a tape measure, a level and some string. Make the wheels just barely pulled in at the top from parallel to the ground with the bubble in the level (1/32-1/16) and then pull the front of the tires (toe) in a 1/16-1/8 of an inch compared to the back side of the front tires. I have done it for decades. They drive fine and the tires last forever and don't cup. Is it optimal for a race track? Probably not but I don't drive on a race track. It's just bolts and nuts and there is no reason on earth why you can't put the bolts and nuts in the same spot the shop can. It is not magic.

    EDIT: as far as caster goes, if you have a stock Fox strut tower and top plate, you can't get too much positive caster in it. Pull it all the way back towards the back as far as it goes. It won't be as much as it needs but will be better. I am making an assumption that Wraith's statement about it not being adjustable meant if you don't drill out the rivet. If you drill out the factory rivet, they do indeed move.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post
    The Ford specifications are for total toe.

    Virtually all modern alignment machines measure toe in degrees and do it per wheel. If you take a linear measurement to an alignment shop, they will look at you strange.

    Adjusting camber with the MM c/c plates takes EXACTLY the same amount of work as it does with the stock mounts. Loosen three nuts, set camber, tighten three nuts.

    The MM c/c plates do allow caster to be adjusted, which requires loosening and tightening two nuts. That is the only extra work involved.

    I think Ford's alignment specifications make more sense when they are properly quoted. As an example some sources will say that "caster +1.15 to +2.65 degrees" What they should really print is caster 1.9 degrees +/- 0.75 degrees. The 1.9 degrees is the specification. The +/-0.75 degrees is the tolerance.

    Over the years Ford added more positive camber and more negative camber to the front alignment specifications of the Mustang as they realized that the world didn't want an understeering pig. It took them over a decade to figure out that if they made a car that actually turned a little bit, more people would buy them.

    Alignment specifications don't have a correct and incorrect answer. To a huge degree the correct alignment depends a lot on how the car is driven. Lots of freeway miles with no cornering means that the car doesn't need very much negative camber. Lots of twisty mountain roads driven aggressively means that the car needs a lot more negative camber. Even on a 100% stock car, with different drivers, the car should have different alignments.
    Thanks for the insights everyone. This car still has the factory camber plates on it but the rivets were drilled out as everything was removed during the rebuild. As for adjusting the k-member/engine mounts and such to gain more negative caster; when I reinstalled and aligned the factory k-member, there was zero adjustment in it left so I'm stuck there. I will try to move them back as far as the bolts up top will allow though.

    Homer, I know when I did a rough alignment on my 82 a few years ago after all the work I did and before I took it in it to be "professionally" done, it wasn't hard to figure out. I think I will follow a lot of the advice given here and do it myself and see where we are after driving it for a bit after that. Unfortunately with the physical limitations of the factory set up, it can only get so good.

    How do you actually measure caster for a DIY'r at home?

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME View Post
    Thanks for the insights everyone. This car still has the factory camber plates on it but the rivets were drilled out as everything was removed during the rebuild. As for adjusting the k-member/engine mounts and such to gain more negative caster; when I reinstalled and aligned the factory k-member, there was zero adjustment in it left so I'm stuck there. I will try to move them back as far as the bolts up top will allow though.

    Homer, I know when I did a rough alignment on my 82 a few years ago after all the work I did and before I took it in it to be "professionally" done, it wasn't hard to figure out. I think I will follow a lot of the advice given here and do it myself and see where we are after driving it for a bit after that. Unfortunately with the physical limitations of the factory set up, it can only get so good.

    How do you actually measure caster for a DIY'r at home?
    Just to clarify, the moving of the k-member forward would gain positive caster, because you'd be moving the wheels forward (specifically, the ball joints) while the top of the strut remains stationary, giving the strut a rearward tilt to the top = positive caster.

    So, with all the wheels on level ground, any rearward tilt of the strut's top point in relation to the ball joint on a Fox means positive caster. Perpendicular or 90-degrees to level ground would be zero caster, and any forward tilt of the strut's top point in relation to the ball joint on a Fox would be negative caster. I'm assuming here that the mounting flanges at the top of the spindles and the bodies of the struts are in direct line of sight with the ball joint's center...

    I bought something commonly referred to as an "angle finder" years ago, and it works great for measuring angles in all sorts of situations, like driveshaft angles and pinion angle, and should work to measure the angle of the struts at home too. There's now many varieties of these, including digital ones...

    Last edited by Walking-Tall; 05-15-2016 at 01:18 PM.
    Mike
    1986 Mustang convertible ---> BUILD THREAD
    Past Fox-chassis "four eyes":
    1983 Mercury Cougar LS
    1986 Ford Thunderbird ELAN
    1980 Capri RS Turbo

    Work in progress website ---> http://carb-rebuilds-plus.boards.net/

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by 82GTforME View Post

    How do you actually measure caster for a DIY'r at home?
    With the stock plates, you don't, LOL. Just pull them back as far as they will go and you're done. I tried yesterday to find an article on Kenny Brown's website I used to reference where that was actually his advice. The holes won't allow you to go too far. I can't find the article any more. With aftermarket CC plates, I am not sure to be honest.
    Couple tips.

    Keep checking to make sure the steering wheel is straight during the process
    There are two ways to set the toe. pick a spot or a row of tread on the front tires. Or put some tape and mark it, whatever and just make sure it's the same location on the front side and back side of the tread. Just take a tape measure and get the front measurement 1/16-1/8 smaller then the back measurement from the right tire to the left. So long as the steering wheel is straight you are good to go. I think it's harder to get the steering wheel totally straight this way because most 30 year old cars are not square. In fact, my DD '94 5.0 (has been hit) is a 1/4 INCH out of square now.

    I use the duct tape and string method. Mainly because I like to say I use duct tape to align my car, LOL. I tape a piece of string to the back side of the rear tires on the tread. Then pull to the front centered through the axle. I pull it tight where it just touches the outside edge of the rear front sidewall (to the rear of the center cap sidewall). Then I pull the front sidewall edge in that 1/16 (each side) from the string it needs for toe in with it just touching the sidewall on the back side of the front tire and touching both sidewalls in the rear.
    Last edited by homer302; 05-15-2016 at 02:50 PM.
    Liberty once lost is lost forever.

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  18. #18

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    To measure caster, turn the steering wheel one direction and measure the turn angle of the wheel as well as the camber. Then turn the wheel the opposite direction and measure the camber again. Then plug all four measurements into the formula below.

    Caster (deg) = (180 / 3.1415) * ((camber1 - camber2) / (turnangle1 - turnangle2))

    To measure the turn angles, you normally need to use turn plates. You can also do this on a lubricated metal plate with lines drawn on it for each tire direction and then the use of a protractor.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the help everyone. Especially Homer. While I did not use duct tape just to say I did, the method you used was very easy for me to follow and execute!

    I also torqued the FCA's myself while I had it up on the ramps

    What I ended up with for starters was the factory caster setting (not really adjustable as stated). -1° camber and 1/8" total toe in. It went quite easy actually. You just need to keep checking the steering wheel is straight after each tie rod adjustment! When I had put in the rack the second time and roughly set the toe, I was out of adjustment range (inner tie rod buried all the way into the outer). Thank goodness I had to bring it back in a bit!

    For setting the camber, I made my own tool including a digital level attached. This works just as well IMO as a protractor or specialty hand tool.



    Toe-in setting using string lines.


  20. #20

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    Hey was doing research on alignments and found this old thread. Awesome information !!

    Exactly what I was looking for to do a check after I upgraded to my 87 spindles. It seems like a pretty reasonable DIY project. I'm going to rig up something similar and give it a go. I also like the digital level idea. Alignments around here will run at least $150 plus the hassle so if I can do some of my own check for a few bucks its worth it.

  21. #21

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    One question though my 80 stock plates have holes labelled from 1-5 and currently set at 1 on both sides by the looks of it. The rivet is gone probably because its been aligned at one point.

    I assume these are for setting the camber since caster can't really be adjusted on these from what I understand.

    Does anyone know what the numbers mean or are they just reference points ? Going from 1 to 5 is more negative or positive etc ?

  22. #22

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    As the top of the strut is moved closer to the centerline of the car, the camber setting becomes more negative.
    Jack Hidley
    Maximum Motorsports Tech Support

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