Concours restoration

[vintageracer]

My question is "Concourse" to who's judging standards!

MCA, Amelia Island, the lawn a Pebble Beach, Cars & Coffee, the cruise in at the local Sonic?

Is your "Concourse" restoration standard how the car left the manufacturing plant? Condition upon arrival at the dealer? Condition is was sold new at the dealer? What YOU THINK it should look like?

A "Concourse" restoration can mean many things depending upon the " Concourse Judging Standard" IF ANY that YOU are trying to achieve. Metuchen, Detroit, California? Which manufacturing plant standards are you going to "restore" to? Who the hell knows what those standards would be? You do realize that identically equipped cars from different plants in the same model year are DIFFERENT! OK so we look at "known" original cars from that plant. It's 30 years later. What makes those "original" cars the standard for that plant?

Who are the judges? What the hell to they really know? Just because they are "Fat 50 and up", bought these cars new does not mean they know exactly what was correct then and therefore what should be correct NOW. It takes a TEAM EFFORT on a monumental scale over many years to develop a judging standard for what is arguably one of iconic brands in automotive history the Mustang. Now we are talking about Foxbody Mustangs that were throw away cars to many people. Yep cheap fun transportation that Ford sold a LOT of! 3 different body styles, many engine/transmission options, SMOG regulations and so much more.

So who really are the "Foxbody Mustang Experts"?????

Take NCRS (National Corvette Restorer's Society) Please take it!!! They formed in 1974. There goal from day 1 was to develop a "Judging Standard" for Corvettes that was as the car left the St. Louis assembly plant. No car to car comparison. Corvette had only 1 plant to consider. Mustang has multiple assembly plants. Over 40 years the Corvette judging standard continues to evolve as so much so that a Corvette that 5 years was "Top Flight" then will not "Top Flight" today. Obviously the judging standard for Corvette focus's on originality down to the number of stitches per inch on a convertible top. Yes they know that by year and supplier. Is that what a Foxbody Mustang owner wants to contend with concerning a "Concourse Restoration"? Be careful what you ask for.

NCRS is losing members as they now DIE OFF due to old age yet NCRS STILL has a larger membership than MCA based upon current MCA membership numbers that have been shared with me. Shame on the Mustang community for NOT supporting what many would argue IS the marque club for the Mustang brand. With MILLIONS OF MUSTANG sold over the years and a small segment of a bunch of old fart fanatical Corvette restorers have a larger club? Pretty amazing to me!

Yes I know that MCA is trying to up the game on Foxbody judging however the questions still stands.

To what Concourse Judging Standard do YOU the Mustang owner/restorer chose for your Concourse Restoration Dream???

Tough choice!

[bluemax]

My question is "Concourse" to who's judging standards!

As you have stated, the standards will always evolve over time as owners and judges become more and more educated on the various differences between assembly plants, years, etc.

Staying with the MCA, just look at how the early cars standards have changed. A '66 convertible that I restored to Gold in concours trailered rules back in '97 would struggle to collect a Bronze today. Not because of cleanliness (50% of points), but because of the expectations for proper finish for hardware has increased. Yes, nuts and bolts. Even my basecoat/clearcoat, that used to be perfectly fine, would now be incorrect due to lack of factory "orange peel".

I have been showing my '86 SVO in Concours Driven since 2011. In less than 5 years the expectations (or standards) has improved. I went from maybe 6-10 point deductions to over 20 at the last show I attended. In response to the continuous improvement, last Winter I removed and detailed the rear end and suspension and this Winter I have been doing the same to the front suspension. I enjoy making my car "better".

In other words, build the car to the current expectations and continue to improve your car as new information comes to light... just look at Bob's coupe. Another great example of just that. If you participate with the MCA, then use their rules, if you enjoy Amelia Island events, then build your car for those expectations (they tend to be more flash and less originality).

First and foremost is to have fun, as we all know, we do this for the love of it, not to get rich!

[Ken P]

My 7B is concours restored to compete in MCA Gold Trailered. The guy who restored it was an MCA judge, my local MCA regional club president at the time, and the paint & body man at Cobra restorers ( yes real Cobras and Shelby GT 350Rs etc. ) Having two 10,xxx mile all original cars as a reference plus my general knowledge, along with a ton of NOS parts, it's about as close to how a brand new SVO rolled out the door of the dealer in 1986.

Being an original owner of my 85.5 also helped. The only things not "correct" are the tires and the battery although it is a new Motorcraft battery.

[4eyes]

My question is "Concourse" to who's judging standards!

It is a monumental task and it's going to take many of us years to get a true "standard" in place. However, the discussions, data collection, photo documenting, judging guideline specifications, etc are moving forward. My restoration is a "genuine pig" of sorts, as it will be a freshly restored car in Concours for MCA. I'm over documenting the dismantling of the car because of it's originality underneath the respray. I'll re-assemble, add any and all part markings we've located on my car or through photo documentation of low mileage original '84 cars and see how it scores.

Will it be perfect? NOPE! Will I be willing to dismantle the car and fix the mistakes as we determine the needed corrections, hell yes! Why, because these cars deserve the same recognition as the other generation Mustangs. These cars provided a performance Renaissance and saved the Mustang from getting "Probed!" I can't imagine driving a front wheel drive 'Stang...

I guess the best way to summarize is this, a concours restoration in today's market is as factory original as possible without being too perfect. Yes, the paint should be better than factory, no runs or orange peel, but factory overspray, messy seam seal and correctly coated fasteners are necessary. We're fortunate to have several low mileage examples of all years and most models/drive trains in existence to use as reference points. It won't be an easy process but what in life worth doing is?

[sowaxeman]

I see people comment all the time about they would never own a wrapper or ultra low mile car because they are meant to be driven. Yet at the same there are people all over the country working on concours restorations, and trying to answer all the questions that Mike brought up. Me...I prefer to buy them with very low miles, all original and still in showroom condition. Sure I don't DRIVE them, but I do cruise in them. To me, that is just as enjoyable - if not more - than spending a ton of money doing a full restoration. Don't get me wrong...I appreciate concours restored cars and even helped on one a few years ago.

I will say this - IF I was going to do a restoration, I would not focus on being 100% correct as it was built 30+ years ago. I'd want it to be perfect by TODAY's standards. Panels and doors would fit perfectly, paint would be base-clear, engine bay would be perfectly painted not half-a$$, etc... Just my opinion. I have toyed with repainting my '82 several times because of how imperfect it is compared to my '85, and even more so compared to my '93...and that has nothing to do with anything the original owner did to it.

Whatever you are going for, the key thing to remember is it is YOUR car. Do it how you want it, don't do it for anyone else's standards, unless your standards are the same as theirs. MCA can have their standards and judging guidelines, but is that really what matters to you? And most of all...have fun with it and keep us posted on the progress!

[PaceFever79]

I admire the concours car school, but I don't see myself ever doing one. You have to be way too anal to even get close to a good consours restoration. I'm more into the nice rebuilt drivers and survivors with mostly original equipment and light handed restomods.

[rodster]

For anyone thinking about doing a concours restoration, learning more about the level of detail involved or just curious, there is already a Concours website/forum for Mustangs. It is very active for the older cars and already has a sections set up for all years. Great group of folks on there too.

http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php

[vintageracer]

Me...I prefer to buy them with very low miles, all original and still in showroom condition.

Listen to his wisdom he is a SMART MAN!

[vintageracer]

Is anyone here really capable of "Restoring" a Foxbody to original?

All you have to do is watch this video about 1979 Mustang production from an earlier thread and ask yourself the following question:

Can I really bring myself to "Restore" my car to such crappy condition so as to match the match the original condition of the car and production methods in place when my car was new????

I think NOT!

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...ighlight=video

[roush235]

Interesting comments here. A few of my thoughts:

"Concours" restorations, as noted, are wrapped up in the definition of the word, which certainly can mean different things to different people. I am familiar with MCA, so my interests and knowledge lie there. For sure the level of specificity and detail for Fox Body cars is no where near the level for Corvettes, or first generation Mustangs for that matter. There never was the level of interest in our cars as compared to these marques/models, and as such the body of knowledge is much less. Likely, it will always be that way (unless we start to see a bunch of $65K cars..... but that is another story.)

The judging guidelines for MCA are always improving, but they will never be able to capture the excruciating level of variety and detail for Fox Body Mustangs. Just think about the 15 years of production, all of the different drivetrains, the multitude of models; for example, just for 1979, there were four or five upholstery trims in a half-dozen colors.

I too wish there was more support for Mustangs, e.g. via MCA. But I have to remind myself that enthusiasts like us are very much in the minority. While the Corvette by and large has been a limited production, high performance model, the Mustang has primarily been about sportiness and affordability. So I'm thankful that MCA exists and accomplishes what it can.

In MCA shows, there are way more unrestored Fox Body cars as compared to restorations. We all pretty much know why (repro parts availability being a prime reason). That is one reason I salute the folks who give it a try. Yes the build quality was abysmal (my car is a good example), so maybe as part of your restoration you improve things.

And finally, I will echo other posters.... do what you want with your car, and have fun with it!

[4eyes]

Hmmmm... So what I'm hearing is don't save good, solid Gen 3 Mustangs through proper restoration? Just pat the fellas on the head who kept theirs under covers for the last 30+ years and let the rest be turned into Joe Dirt's dream ride? Come on!!! The build quality of the '80s wasn't great but neither were the '60s or '70s. Anyone following the collector car market knows that an overly restored car can bring less money than a car restored back to original because, like a lady with too much plastic surgery, it just looks unnatural.

Yes, better than factory panel alignment, modern paint tech, better sound deadening, etc are expected and needed to impress. Using non-original interior materials, incorrect fittings, and aftermarket engine components in a "restoration" will cost you if looking to flip the unit.

However, I'm all for customized, one off 4 eyed Fords. The 'vert I voted for this month was the least original of the group. If the coupe I'm working on wasn't the oddball it is, I'd be going a whole different, and far less expensive, direction. That's the point, it's not about the money, if you're worried about the amount you're spending on a project, then a concours style restoration isn't what you should be considering. But, if we want to keep our cars on the road for a long time to come, we need the aftermarket industry to build parts for these cars. If people aren't restoring Gen 3 'Stangs then the supply will stay desolate.

I appreciate what you guys are saying about the cost benefit of buying an original low mileage car. But where's the fun in that? Give me a unique project to save and let's get to work, providing a story to share with others at shows and cruise ins. To me that's what the hobby's about...

[E2ZZGLX]

Hmmm...I like all the thoughts and understand all the opinions. Restoration or preservation is good for any hobby, we do it for own enjoyment and hopefully for future generation to enjoy. In the car hobby I really like and enjoy low mileage, unmolested orignal cars...these can never be duplicated and should be preserved for reference for all to enjoy. These cars are probably...in my opinion the best "Bang for the Buck" in my opinion. As even a light restoration may meet or exceed the cost nice low mileage unrestore car, a full restoration in most cases two to three times the cost of a low mileage unrestored original car. A nice unrestored original driver that requires light restoration and detailing is what most of the cars I have or are available. And this is what I'm considering doing as these make the most sense to me, both for availability and costs at this time. These cars can in most cases still do retain a lot of the poor or low-quality billed as they were produced which is OK! For the complete ground up or nut and restoration especially on these cars or I guess any cars built during that era it would be crazy to try and duplicate the low-quality poor workmanship of an original car. But doing this level of restoration I would and I think most people would perform the restoration to the highest quality of fit and finish,materials and still be able to retain the factory inspection marks assembly line marks and details. I myself personally would like to do something like this in the future to the right car...a fox Mustang or something else as this is the longest term commitment And the most costly.

I really enjoy the input and comments and definitely the photos and hope this thread keeps going as it's a subject that needs more input and opinions help etc. for those taking the risky step of planning or doing a restoration on a fox platform car.

And for the guidelines or general rules we are Mustang enthusiasts and isn't the MCA guidelines or rules the general in The Mustang hobby? A Corvette for exotic car owner wouldn't want to restore their car to MCA rules why would we want to restore ours to theirs? I think in most cases the Corvette hobby or exotic car hobby is extremely lucky that they do have consistent information provided to them due to their...in most cases low production (compared to a Mustang), or only one well documented Assembly plant or line amongst other things.

PS...my biggest pet peeve with thes cars is the quality of workmanship especially with interior trim etc...fix 10 things to correct one!
Second to parts avaibility...one more reason to restore these cars to show the interest to the aftermarket that we are here and willing..

[bluesfannoz]

I too am enjoying this thread. I myself have focused on the limited edition cars because that is my area of interest. I am working to document as much information as I can on the Dominators, Predators, and Twister Mustangs. I applaud all who are trying to document as much about our cars as possible. A giant kudos needs to go out to Mick(FoxChassis) for the work he is doing. He has helped me immensely in finding ways to document cars like the Dominators where very little records exist. He helped find the cross over between the Predators and Twisters where some of the cars that were originally ordered as Twisters were delivered to Soloman American and converted into Predators.

I myself will never be a concourse level restoration guy. Yes if I won the lottery I would want to restore several Dominators to the concourse level to use as educational pieces. The car I have now is about as close as I think I will ever get to original. It had most of the original Dominator pieces when we located it. The exhaust was the major piece that was not original. Something that typically got changed. I located some vintage hooker super comp headers and vintage 85 Mustang exhaust and had the original exhaust shop that put the headers on the Dominators for Summit put that exhaust on my car. No I did not do it 100% original because I wanted to be able to remove the exhaust without cutting it. The original was welded in. I did not have have him install the exhaust dumps that some of the earlier cars had. I have yet to find a car with those still on it. But I do have sketches of what it looked like.

My point is no matter what, We need to be documenting as much as we can of all the original cars we can find, not just my beloved special editions. Snap pictures. Post them up here. It will help someone someday. Not just to win concourse level awards, or to rebuild his dream car, but also to honor those hard working men and women who built these cars. No they were not perfect, far from it, what car is. They carried the name Mustang just as proudly as any generation.

[vintageracer]

Yes, better than factory panel alignment, modern paint tech, better sound deadening, etc are expected and needed to impress.

Herein lies the PROBLEM with restoration in today's MCA show world.

If Mustangs must be prepared to be "Better than factory panel alignment, modern paint tech, better sound deadening, etc are expected and needed to impress" MCA judges for concourse level judging then these judging standards NOT a restoration standard!

Refurbishment, Rebuild, Recreation, Resto-mod or many other terms but certainly NOT A RESTORATION!

[4eyes]

Herein lies the PROBLEM with restoration in today's MCA show world.

If "Better than factory panel alignment, modern paint tech, better sound deadening, etc are expected and needed to impress" then this is NOT a restoration! Refurbishment, Rebuild, Recreation, Resto-mod or many other terms but NOT a restoration!

I agree better than original is the norm for concours but it's not limited to MCA. Any good "factory" restored car today is much closer to being correct than 10 years ago, the market is demanding it. The money it costs to "relive your childhood memories" is expensive and the people spending that type of coin expect vehicles done to perfection. Even if the craftsman wants to keep factory fitments, poor paint and rattly interior, no paying customer will accept those results and the shop would close.

However, as Webster states, the definition of restoration includes "a restoring to an unimpaired or improved condition." Look at the fields of Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Carlisle, etc and tell me how many of those vehicles are in "as left the factory" original fitment? There's not a restoration shop in the world who puts a car back to "exact" factory specs. That's why original, unrestored cars are so popular at the moment.

If you want to see exactly what came off the assembly line, track down one of the many beautiful low mileage examples saved. If you want to see what cars could've been if built by hand, then a concours restoration is the ticket.

[PaceFever79]

I agree better than original is the norm for concours but it's not limited to MCA. Any good "factory" restored car today is much closer to being correct than 10 years ago, the market is demanding it. The money it costs to "relive your childhood memories" is expensive and the people spending that type of coin expect vehicles done to perfection. Even if the craftsman wants to keep factory fitments, poor paint and rattly interior, no paying customer will accept those results and the shop would close.

However, as Webster states, the definition of restoration includes "a restoring to an unimpaired or improved condition." Look at the fields of Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Carlisle, etc and tell me how many of those vehicles are in "as left the factory" original fitment? There's not a restoration shop in the world who puts a car back to "exact" factory specs. That's why original, unrestored cars are so popular at the moment.

If you want to see exactly what came off the assembly line, track down one of the many beautiful low mileage examples saved. If you want to see what cars could've been if built by hand, then a concours restoration is the ticket.

Well said, this is how I feel too.

[Ken P]

An example of what I was saying.

[sowaxeman]

I appreciate what you guys are saying about the cost benefit of buying an original low mileage car. But where's the fun in that? Give me a unique project to save and let's get to work, providing a story to share with others at shows and cruise ins. To me that's what the hobby's about...

I get your point about the project, the work and the story....there is definitely a feeling of pride in that! For me it's the same reasoning on owning low mile, mint cars, and its been just as fun. It was all about the chase for me....took me ~39 years of collective chase to land my three dream cars. That's just as much a good story as a flip book of pictures of a thorough restoration.

[Dadsccat]

My Crimson Cat is as close to concours restoration as I could get. I'm a collector of survivor cars, having 6 other cars that all are low mileage, rust free cars with 5 of them having the original paint. I love a car that has stood the test of time and still represents itself as it did when new. I enjoy driving these cars and doing my best to keep them in good condition. I do most of the work they need myself and take pride in them. The age range goes from 1965 to 1990 with the 90 being a 25th Anniversary 7UP Mustang convertible. The Capri was a new concept for me. Some of you may remember my build thread and if you do, you know the car was in really rough shape so survivor status was just not possible. I made the decision to do a rotisserie restoration and keep the car as close to concours as possible. Every single nut, bolt, wire, switch etc. has been gone over and then gone over again. This was my one and only time I would take on a project like this and I was going to do it right. What really held me back from a true concours restoration was that I didn't have the original drivetrain which is the only way to have a true numbers matching car. So I did my best, kept the drivetrain true to the original (sort of)and added dual exhaust and frame connectors. I felt that since the drivetrain wasn't original I would take a couple liberties in the name of performance. Other than that, the car is as original and other than the dual exhaust, looks original. I don't show the car and intend to drive it on nice sunny summer days. It truly looks like it did when it left the showroom floor and that's what I was going for. This level of restoration was way out of my league so the work was done by professionals and was very expensive. I love the finished product but certainly wouldn't have done it if I wanted to recoup my investment.

[rodster]

......as it will be a freshly restored car in Concours for MCA. I'm over documenting the dismantling of the car because of it's originality underneath the respray.

You (or anyone else) doing this level of restoration really should visit

http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php

and share your information. It will only help to grow the hobby and maybe get some more manufacturers to repo parts.

I appreciate what you guys are saying about the cost benefit of buying an original low mileage car. But where's the fun in that? Give me a unique project to save and let's get to work, providing a story to share with others at shows and cruise ins. To me that's what the hobby's about...

I get your point about the project, the work and the story....there is definitely a feeling of pride in that! For me it's the same reasoning on owning low mile, mint cars, and its been just as fun. It was all about the chase for me....took me ~39 years of collective chase to land my three dream cars. That's just as much a good story as a flip book of pictures of a thorough restoration.

The thing to keep in mind is there is enough room in this hobby for everyone and their particular interest.

Concours isn't for everyone and inevitably someone will end up with a trailer queen due to the amount of time and effort spent and the amount of time to detail it if driven.

I appreciate all levels of interest and ownership and find the hobby is more fun that way as opposed to a tunnel vision view of only one style.

[vintageracer]

My how time flies!

5-7 years ago I purchased what at that time was regarded as the nicest, most correct, unrestored 1986 Saleen Mustang out there. An absolute true time capsule. The ink stamp on the foam sleeve over the large A/C line just below the cowl was PERFECT! That's the type of car this Saleen was.

I kept the car a couple years, put 4 miles on the car and sold it! Nice to look at, nice to talk about and USELESS as Hell for my perspective and taste! I have a picture of the car in my office from which "I" get just as much enjoyment from as I did owning the car. This Saleen Mustang reminded my why I never owned or restored a Corvette to NCRS Top Flight status in my more than 30 years of owning, driving, buying and selling Corvettes.

The closest frame-off Corvette build that I did to NCRS Top Flight Corvette judging guidlelines was my wife's 1967 Corvette she purchased in 1989. Absolute perfect candidate for a Top Flight frame-off restoration as this Corvette was completely original down to the "dated" shock absorbers. In 1994 started the "Rebuild" that was completed in 1996 just 1 month before the birth of our first little (now grown) girl. Pretty funny watching her drive her "NEW" Corvette 8 month pregnant!!

I did a complete frame-off "rebuild" on her Corvette right down to the chalk marks on the frame, inspection paint dabs everywhere and all. Before the "rebuild" began I also handed my wife a 1967 Color chart, trim chart and option list. I told her to "ORDER" your new 1967 Corvette. The ONLY limitations were the engine/transmission combination was going to stay original along with the factory air conditioning. Everything else was WIDE OPEN for her choice including color, interior and any options she wanted to add. The result as a Corvette with color change to a different original 1967 color an interior trim color change, a bunch of neat factory options added to the car and a state of the art at that time full suspension upgrade under the car. You look at the car, open the hood, look in the interior and what you see "appears" to be complete frame-off "RESTORED" Corvette right down to paint dabs and chalk marks. Look a little closer and you see the transverse fiberglass springs front & rear, tubular control arms, adjustable suspension pieces AND the skinny redline Michelin radials. The Corvette runs and drives GREAT all these many years later and she enjoys just as much as ever! Restored? No! Rebuilt, refurbished, modified, cleaned, painted and more? YES!

20 years later she still often drives her Corvette going out for cruises with her girlfriends. I even get to drive the car every now and then! In the last 20 years the car has only been in a couple of charity car shows. That's it. She likes to enjoy her Corvette and that means DRIVING it not standing around babysitting the car while others look at it! Car's and Coffee is about as close to a car show as this car ever see's. The underside of the car is almost as nice as when the restoration was completed. I put it on the lift a couple of times a years for maintenance.

So back to the question?

Is her "Frame-Off" Corvette "Rebuilt or Restored"???

Sure looks "Restored" to me!

Is my wife's Corvette RESTORED???

NO it's not "original" anymore as built in St. Louis in 1967!

Here is a pic of the Corvette this morning sitting in the garage top down ready to go cruisin, a pic at the 2007 Mid America Corvette Funfest and a pic from the April 2007 National Corvette Calender!

[STANGMAN116]

Mint condition would be the state of the vehicle when it originally left the factory.*Concours-quality cars often are given upholstery, paint, plating, and mechanical*restoration*to a standard far exceeding that of the car when it was new.

[vintageracer]

Oh! Another term or level added to the discussion.

"MINT"!

[4eyes]

Lol... You're wife's car is a beautiful "resto-mod." You made it appear factory correct, then used modern components to make it more enjoyable to drive. That's perfect, for the desired out come, a user friendly '67.(talk about crappy build quality, welcome to the epicenter, Corvettes.)

If NCRS turned their collective noses up to your decision that's irrelevant because your talking 1994, 20 years ago. You were actually ahead of the times and honestly smart for going the way you did since original C2 Vettes aren't much fun to drive "spiritedly" particularly a convertible.

I've explained my understanding of concours above and am not going to rehash that point. I just want everyone to remember to keep this polite and not get personal, we're all one the same team, Team FEP.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[4eyes]

An example of what I was saying.

Very nice Ken, you have a thread on here with pics of entire car?

The thing to keep in mind is there is enough room in this hobby for everyone and their particular interest.

Concours isn't for everyone and inevitably someone will end up with a trailer queen due to the amount of time and effort spent and the amount of time to detail it if driven.

I appreciate all levels of interest and ownership and find the hobby is more fun that way as opposed to a tunnel vision view of only one style.

Excellent way to say it. Some people are clean freaks by nature. Others have no regard for their property, no matter how expensive or rare... we've all seen examples of both. We need to remember to support each other and help grow the interest in our generation of Mustangs. More demand means more supply of quality parts!